The Doctrine of OSAS

[Barrd]

Consider the magnitude of it.
God...the Most Holy High God Himself...
Steps down from His throne.
Leaving His Glory behind, He manifests Himself in the form of a tiny infant, born to a poor virgin here on earth....and this at a time before there were things like electric lights, or automobiles, or cell phones, or indoor plumbing...all of which we take for granted....and all of which are but silly toys to the Creator of the Universe. I mean, talk about slumming!

And then, after walking around talking with sweating, jostling crowds all over Gallilee and Judea and the surrounding area for three years...He allows Himself...God Himself, allows Himself to be taken as a criminal, and, in a sham of a very illegal night trial, found guilty of blaspheme. He...God Himself...is slapped, He is spit upon, He is beaten severely...He is whipped with a cruel Roman flagellum, or whip, with bits of rock and bone tied into it's lashes...whipped 49 vicious strokes that cut the flesh of His back to ribbons. And don't forget the crown of thorns forced down over His noble head...what a travesty! And then He was marched through the city....God HImself....carrying a cruel Roman cross on His poor bloody back...until the Centurion took pity on Him and ordered another man to carry it for Him. He was weak from the loss of blood and from the outrageous treatment He had received at the hands of wicked men.
And then...oh I can hardly bear to tell it. But I want people to understand...crucifixion is not just a pretty church word. It is a harsh reality.
No, I will not go into detail again tonight....I've done it once already today, and it is emotionally exhausting...

 

[Barrd]

I'm one of those who reads but doesn't post (or in my case, rarely posts these days). Let ne put it to you this way: I'm not impressed. There are some glimmers of light, but I don't see alot of people listening to undetstand anyone else's perspective.

A very small example: someone stated that grace isn't a license to sin. That oerson ought to look into the history of that analogy. They'd be shocked and probably embarrassed.

That was me, and I stand by what I said.
Grace is not a license to sin...although I know it has been used that way.

Think of it this way....I have fire insurance...but if I set fire to my own house, I could still go to jail....for insurance fraud...

 

[justaname]

I'm one of those who reads but doesn't post (or in my case, rarely posts these days). Let ne put it to you this way: I'm not impressed. There are some glimmers of light, but I don't see alot of people listening to undetstand anyone else's perspective.

A very small example: someone stated that grace isn't a license to sin. That oerson ought to look into the history of that analogy. They'd be shocked and probably embarrassed.

I would think all arguments would end at this definition of the doctrine...but I was wrong.

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.

 

[justaname]

It seems to me some cherish free will over God's free gift...

 

[justaname]

Double

 

[FHII]

I would think all arguments would end at this definition of the doctrine...but I was wrong.

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.

No arguement from me...

 

[Barrd]

And others do not understand the value of Christ crucified yet still want to lean on their own strength to persevere as opposed to God's protecting hand. Also sad.

No, Justaname. No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him...and no one can continue to follow Him unless He does so in the strength of the Holy Spirit.
No one is saying anything different.

 

[Barrd]

It seems to me some cherish free will over God's free gift...

It isn't really a matter of treasuring freewill as it is a matter of acknowledging it.
Following Jesus is a day by day decision.

 

[justaname]

No, Justaname. No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him...and no one can continue to follow Him unless He does so in the strength of the Holy Spirit.
No one is saying anything different.

Honestly my comment was not against you personally...but I understand why you might think it was. Just like I am certain your previous post was not against me personally...

 

[Barrd]

I would think all arguments would end at this definition of the doctrine...but I was wrong.

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.

I am not prepared to say who is or who is not born again.
I expect certain behavior from someone who claims to be a Christian...and loving behavior would indicate a Christian, while hateful behavior...not so much...but at the end of the day only God can see our hearts.

 

[FHII]

That was me, and I stand by what I said.
Grace is not a license to sin...although I know it has been used that way.

Think of it this way....I have fire insurance...but if I set fire to my own house, I could still go to jail....for insurance fraud...

I know it was you, barrd. I do admire your zeal. I do have a problem with the whole license to sin arguement, but not necessarily for the reasons you might expect.

In the mean time, why not take me up on my challenge? Look into famous theologians who used that phrase. 10 minute google search is all I'm asking. Heck, start with Calvin if you'd like!

 

[Barrd]

Honestly my comment was not against you personally...but I understand why you might think it was. Just like I am certain your previous post was not against me personally...

Of course not. I like and respect you.
I just don't agree with you on this doctrine.

 

[justaname]

It isn't really a matter of treasuring freewill as it is a matter of acknowledging it.
Following Jesus is a day by day decision.

No one disagrees...we are to pick up our cross daily. Yet we are kept by the Good Shephard, and if we wander He will leave the 99 to get the one. Glory be to God in the Highest for it is not through my efforts I am being saved and will be saved, rather it is through the power of God alone!

If you are of His flock you will not be abandoned...if you are not of His flock you are condemned already...

To be a child of God means we will be chastised...but we will never enter judgement...God knows who are His, and will not allow His child to stray too far without reigning her back in...

 

[justaname]

Of course not. I like and respect you.
I just don't agree with you on this doctrine.

Thank you...I love and respect you also...xoxoxo

Ha ha!

 

[Barrd]

I know it was you, barrd. I do admire your zeal. I do have a problem with the whole license to sin arguement, but not necessarily for the reasons you might expect.

In the mean time, why not take me up on my challenge? Look into famous theologians who used that phrase. 10 minute google search is all I'm asking. Heck, start with Calvin if you'd like!

I honestly can't find anything on theologians who have used this phrase.

But you know...I don't think it matters.

For me...yes, I understand that God will still love me no matter how badly I mess up...and that He will always forgive me....if I ask Him to.
That isn't the point. The point is the damage that sin does...in my life, and in the lives of the ones I love.
I'm not going to go into painful personal details in an open forum tonight...but trust me when I tell you....I've had my trip to God's woodshed, and I took my whipping like a woman. I learned from the mistake I made. Not saying I'm perfect...no one is...but I won't be making a mistake like that again.

Now, that, kids, is real GRACE....

Could I turn my back on God, walk away, and do what I wanted to do anyway? Yes, I could. And I know others who have.
God will not force His love on me, or on anyone else.

But oh...how empty my life was without Him!

 

[Barrd]

Thank you...I love and respect you also...xoxoxo

Ha ha!

:wub:

 

[ATP]

He has no argument which is why I believe he responded with that statement. There is no argument for OSAS because it's not what the Scriptures teach. There are warnings in Scripture for the believer to stay the course and not turn away. However, OSAS supports won't address the turning away issue, instead the just post passages about believers or what God or Christ has done.

Heb 9:12 NIV. Eternal is forever Butch.

Only if they are believers. If they change their minds and stop believing they are no longer believers thus no forever.

If they stop believing these people were never saved by grace to begin with. Apostates are everywhere in scripture.

 

[mjrhealth]

Grace is not a license to sin...although I know it has been used that way.

No grace was given to mankind becuase he is imperfect, the law was given to the Jews to show them we are imperfect. The only ones who speak of this " licence to sin" are those who claim to keep the law and by what the bible says, are sinners. It has become your stumbling block that you are trying to put before others.

It is not a sin to be human, no matter what the devil says.

God gave us His Son who was laid upon the cross for our sins, why are so many ashamed of His work, that they think they can do better.

 

[Barrd]

No one disagrees...we are to pick up our cross daily. Yet we are kept by the Good Shephard, and if we wander He will leave the 99 to get the one. Glory be to God in the Highest for it is not through my efforts I am being saved and will be saved, rather it is through the power of God alone!

If you are of His flock you will not be abandoned...if you are not of His flock you are condemned already...

To be a child of God means we will be chastised...but we will never enter judgement...God knows who are His, and will not allow His child to stray too far without reigning her back in...

You know, I am beginning to think we agree much more than we disagree.

What you are talking about is Perseverence of the Saints....which doesn't seem to be quite the same as OSAS.
You do understand that the Saints here also have a part....they follow where they are led. They are not dragged along on a leash....

 

[ATP]

And others do not understand the value of Christ crucified yet still want to lean on their own strength to persevere as opposed to God's protecting hand. Also sad...

They will soon learn that religion will not save them.