The Doctrine of OSAS

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Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
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The Barrd said:
Thank you, Butch.
See, that's what I mean about lifting verses from the context of the Bible.
Someone who does not read or study for themselves would be taken in by theses random verses.
And perhaps once, there was an excuse for that....

But kids, this is the digital age. If an old lady like me can learn to use a computer.....anyone can do it.
Remember....GOOGLE is your friend!
You're welcome The Barrd! It is troublesome that many are taught today to just proof text. Sometimes I think it may have been better if they never added the verse numbers. At least that way people would have to read the text to find the passages they were looking for.
 

Barrd

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Jul 27, 2015
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ATP said:

If they stop believing these people were never saved by grace to begin with. Apostates are everywhere in scripture.

ATP, do you know what the term "apostate" means?


apostate
noun apos·tate \ə-ˈpäs-ˌtāt, -tət\

: someone whose beliefs have changed and who no longer belongs to a religious or political group

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apostate

and again:



apostate



[uh-pos-teyt, -tit]








noun 1.
a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.

adjective 2.
of or characterized by apostasy.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apostate
 

Butch5

Butch5
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justaname said:
Or it is about the everlasting covenant established at Christ's first coming...

As Christ Himself said the Kingdom is at hand.
Is Israel living in safety in the Land of Promise? It sure doesn't look like it. That prophecy is about Israel receiving the promised land. That won't happen until the resurrection. The land was promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Christ. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead and never received the land. Therefore the only way the can receive it is in the resurrection. The prophecy also says,

17 "For thus says the LORD:`David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;

No one is sitting on David's throne now. However Christ will when He returns.
 

Barrd

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Jul 27, 2015
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Butch5 said:
You're welcome The Barrd! It is troublesome that many are taught today to just proof text. Sometimes I think it may have been better if they never added the verse numbers. At least that way people would have to read the text to find the passages they were looking for.
I have to agree. We could do without the numbered verses...too many use them to twist the scriptures.
In fact, I've not seen such twisting since my last high school dance....and that was (mumblety-mumble) years ago....
 

rockytopva

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I was brought up in a Baptist church. We had a pastor who worked the attendance up to over 400. My generation of young people were really wild. We had a youth group of girls who done a pretty good job of acting saved at church, but their life outside of church was another thing. We had one girl by the name of Teresa who was straight, but she was the only in that group of girls who did not have family in the church. The girls thought to get together for some marijuana and fun so they thought to invite Teresa. Well Teresa tells on the young people and the next thing you know the church is in an uproar. The pastor gets the blame and the then gets the boot out the door. They then get some ultra fundamentalist guy who had no personality at all. Before you know it the church is under 100 in attendance.

It is an embarrassment to the OSAS people to see people saved and then make the trek from good to bad... From light to darkness. I do know some Baptist people who I believe have secured an eternal salvation, but not everyone.
 

Butch5

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Clement of Rome was Paul's travelling companion and is mentioned in Philippians 3.

3 And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life. (Phil. 4:3 NKJ)


He said this to the Christians in Corinth.

Since then all things are seen and heard [by God], let us fear Him, and forsake those wicked works which proceed from evil desires; so that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
 

Butch5

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Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John. Irenaeus said

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4 Chapter 41.

3. For as, among men, those sons who disobey their fathers, being disinherited, are still their sons in the course of nature, but by law are disinherited, for they do not become the heirs of their natural parents; so in the same way is it with God, — those who do not obey Him being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
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The Barrd said:
I have to agree. We could do without the numbered verses...too many use them to twist the scriptures.
In fact, I've not seen such twisting since my last high school dance....and that was (mumblety-mumble) years ago....
I agree. I don't think I went to my high school dances.
 

ATP

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mjrhealth said:
and teh devil will keep them wrapped arouind his thumb, questioning there salvation, bringing doubt which forgoes faith and undoing all or Lords good work.
well said. if you have been saved by grace you will know it. you will take it to your grave. i know i will. we are sealed until when? shalom friend.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.
 

justaname

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Butch5 said:
Is Israel living in safety in the Land of Promise? It sure doesn't look like it. That prophecy is about Israel receiving the promised land. That won't happen until the resurrection. The land was promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Christ. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead and never received the land. Therefore the only way the can receive it is in the resurrection. The prophecy also says,

17 "For thus says the LORD:`David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;

No one is sitting on David's throne now. However Christ will when He returns.
Well if you look into history they were gathered back into the land, the temple was rebuilt, and Christ came to establish the everlasting covenant.

Christ sits on David's throne now, Israel rejected their King...
 

ATP

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Butch5 said:
You know "olam" and "aionios" don't mean eternal.
The only place aionios is used is in Heb 9:12 NLT. Heb 9:12 NLT refers to the blood of Jesus securing our redemption forever. So Jesus lied?

The other two passages in Ephesians say "until the redemption of those who are God's possession" and "sealed for the day of redemption". No mention of olam or aionios. Rather, they use a specific day to describe eternity, the day of redemption. The day of redemption is the first resurrection.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.
 

Barrd

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justaname said:
Well if you look into history they were gathered back into the land, the temple was rebuilt, and Christ came to establish the everlasting covenant.

Christ sits on David's throne now, Israel rejected their King...
Israel had rejected her King long ago, back in the days of Samuel.
It really should come as no surprise that they are still waiting for a human messiah.
But the one they are waiting for will never come....
 

Barrd

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You cannot talk to a deaf man, nor can you make a blind man see....
Even as Satan drew two thirds of the angels after him, so he seems to be drawing at least two thirds of the church.
But again...if you're following a crowd....you're going the wrong way....
 

heretoeternity

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mjrhealth said:
Once tou have received Christ and accepted salvation, the only way to loose it is to reject Christ. As a friend of mine said, Jesus cannot deny Himself. It is by faith we are justifed.....





James 2..20 ."faith without works is dead" and in 2.24..."man is not justified by faith alone, but also by works"
and Paul in Romans...."do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law"
 

heretoeternity

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mjrhealth said:
Once tou have received Christ and accepted salvation, the only way to loose it is to reject Christ. As a friend of mine said, Jesus cannot deny Himself. It is by faith we are justifed.....





James 2..20 ."faith without works is dead" and in 2.24..."man is not justified by faith alone, but also by works"
and Paul in Romans...."do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law"
 

ATP

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Believers rejecting Christ is not biblical. If you reject Christ then you had no root of salvation to begin with. Matt 13:21 NIV
 

heretoeternity

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ATP said:
Believers rejecting Christ is not biblical. If you reject Christ then you had no root of salvation to begin with. Matt 13:21 NIV
Jesus said in John 14 "if you love me keep my Commandments"..so if you do not keep the Commandments you have, in fact, rejected Him...and in 1st John..."Those that say they know Him and keep not His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them"..
 

Barrd

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heretoeternity said:
Jesus said in John 14 "if you love me keep my Commandments"..so if you do not keep the Commandments you have, in fact, rejected Him...and in 1st John..."Those that say they know Him and keep not His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them"..
Yes, HTE....and it was this that got me involved in the OSAS debate in the first place.
I still cannot, for the life of me, figure out how someone can claim to be following Jesus Christ, but not loving Him enough to keep His commandments.
This is a mystery to me...
 

mjrhealth

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I still cannot, for the life of me, figure out how someone can claim to be following Jesus Christ, but not loving Him enough to keep His commandments.
This is a mystery to me...
I cant figure out how those who claim to walk with Christ who therfore suppodedly have love, so desperattely need the law to keep them from sinning?? Did He not say , If we love your brother.. oh forfget it , its over you head.
 

justaname

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The Barrd said:
You cannot talk to a deaf man, nor can you make a blind man see....
Even as Satan drew two thirds of the angels after him, so he seems to be drawing at least two thirds of the church.
But again...if you're following a crowd....you're going the wrong way....
That was only 1/3 not 2/3

Rev. 12:4, “And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.”