You know, I appreciate your concern for me, I really do.ATP said:
But, as I told you before...I have had the same Teacher for over fifty years.
Given a choice between you or Christ, please try not to be offended....but I will choose Christ.
The Doctrine of OSAS
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But, as I told you before...I have had the same Teacher for over fifty years.
Given a choice between you or Christ, please try not to be offended....but I will choose Christ.
If I were trying to defend OSAS I would not want to deal with this chapter either.ATP said:
But you can't just make scripture that contradicts you "go away", can you?
You may think you are "done with" it....
But these words will come back to haunt you....and I guarantee...you will wish you had listened...
People calling themselves christian doesn't make them a christian.The Barrd said:
How can I forsake God when God won't forsake me Heb 13:5 NIV.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apostate?s=t
1. a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.
You're choosing Christ but depending on your own righteousness to keep you from hell?The Barrd said:
These passages are describing false prophets and teachers, similar to how the entire chapter is. Yet you refuse to accept this. Never stop sinning describes nonbelievers...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV.The Barrd said:
2 Pet 2:13-16 NIV They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
Yes, ATP....a person who forsakes his religion.ATP said:
Now, do you understand that, in order to forsake your religion, you have to have believed in it?
Can a man forsake his wife if he is not married?
Can a democrat forsake his political party if he never had one?
Can a barren woman forsake her children?
No. And you cannot forsake Christ unless you had once followed Him.
It isn't rocket science
From your NIV:ATP said:
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
Can you not see that these people had "escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"?
ATP....you said it yourself....these guys were apostates. These are people who once had faith, but who left their faith....and have gotten entangles in the same corruption they had escaped from.
They knew the way of righteousness...but they turned their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
From my beloved KJV
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
And it isn't going to matter what version you go to, ATP...
Yes, these guys became false teachers....but first they had to leave the truth they had known...they had to turn their backs on the Holy Commandment they had received.
13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
Notice verse 15. They LEFT the straight way. In other words they had been on the straight way...but they wandered off in a different direction.
I know these verses are difficult for you, and I'm quite sure you'd rather not think about them...but ATP...they aren't going anywhere.
The plain fact is that these verses shoot the OSAS doctrine full of holes, and you know it.
Hey...it's okay to be wrong. You're still just a green kid...so you got caught up in a very popular false doctrine. As long as you wipe the sleep out of your eyes before it is too late.
Honestly, no one will lose respect for you if you simply admit the truth.
If anything, we will have more respect for you than we have for this desperate clinging to this total lie.
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Primise: God knows all who are His. It is God who saves us, not that we save our selves. Only those that God saves will be saved.
Question: Does God attempt to save someone He knows will not be saved in the end? Would this not be illogical? Wouldn't that mean God is incapable of saving some, because He tried but was unsuccessful?
Question: Does God attempt to save someone He knows will not be saved in the end? Would this not be illogical? Wouldn't that mean God is incapable of saving some, because He tried but was unsuccessful?
justaname
well said
If the Lord wants you to believe, you will believe. It’s not a touch and go, iffy kind of thing.
Act:9:1: And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2: And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3: And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5: And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6: And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Slight change of heart and perspective there wasn’t it?
Gen:12:1: Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4: So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
5: And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
6: And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
7: And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Note both men didn’t come to the Lord, the Lord God revealed Himself to them. They believed and trust the Lord God and obeyed. The measure of faith given, because you don’t believe or trust what you don’t know. Therefore the knowledge of God gives what is necessary to survive till the end. If you know God, why would you trust something else? But if you don’t know God, then do you trust what you don’t know? Of course not. Hence without the knowledge one is lost, even if they know about God.
well said
If the Lord wants you to believe, you will believe. It’s not a touch and go, iffy kind of thing.
Act:9:1: And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2: And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3: And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5: And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6: And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Slight change of heart and perspective there wasn’t it?
Gen:12:1: Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4: So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
5: And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
6: And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
7: And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Note both men didn’t come to the Lord, the Lord God revealed Himself to them. They believed and trust the Lord God and obeyed. The measure of faith given, because you don’t believe or trust what you don’t know. Therefore the knowledge of God gives what is necessary to survive till the end. If you know God, why would you trust something else? But if you don’t know God, then do you trust what you don’t know? Of course not. Hence without the knowledge one is lost, even if they know about God.
Premise: God will accept every one that comes to Him.justaname said:
Question: Does God force Himself on anyone? Should a person change his or her mind, would God not, however sadly, honor his or her choice?
Are you saying that God purposely creates people, just so that He can send them to hell?DPMartin said:
Seriously, why doesn't God just force everyone to believe in Him?
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Now, either this is true, and you are wrong....
Or the Bible is an unreliable witness, and we needn't bother with it any more...
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God forced Himself on Paul...God forced Himself on pharaoh of Egypt...two different examples, two different types of forcing...The Barrd said:
If you change your mind your faith was hollow...Those with saving faith endure to the end.
I did notice you in your response chose not to address my questions...care to answer them?
Pharoah is not a valid example.justaname said:
Paul on the other hand....
Of course, I believe that Paul was a special case. Paul was a believer...the problem was not that he didn't believe in God. The problem was that he didn't understand Who Jesus was or why He came. Paul was a devout Pharisee. He was doing His level best to serve the Lord he knew according to the rules he had been taught....the rules that God had once given to Moses at Mt. Sinai.
Saying "their faith was hollow" is making a judgment that you are not qualified to make. You have no basis for this judgment.
Your questions...
Question: Does God attempt to save someone He knows will not be saved in the end? Would this not be illogical? Wouldn't that mean God is incapable of saving some, because He tried but was unsuccessful?
God doesn't "attempt" to save anyone. The offer is on the table. It is up to you whether you accept it or not.
Do you think that God purposely creates people knowing ahead of time that they are destined for hell? Wouldn't that make Him inordinately cruel?
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Why doesn't God just force everyone to believe in Him?
In the middle of verses that describe the destruction of the ungodly. Ungodly: Of persons: Not fearing or reverencing God; irreligious, impious, wicked. Not in accordance with the will or law of God.The Barrd said:
So what you’re saying is, Peter is talking out both sides of his mouth, aren’t you? Notice the words to us-ward. Those who are like Peter in faith in the Life given through Christ. And when God gives promise, it’s to whom ever He chooses to. Noah, Abraham, King David, and those through Christ including Noah, Abraham, King David are all promised. And the follow through that He sees to it, His Promise, Word given, is fulfilled.
Pt:3:7: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11: Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12: Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13: Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Scripture doesn’t deny the truth of other scripture as you suggest it does, by take scripture out of context. Note judgement and perdition of ungodly men. And perdition is the fact or condition of being destroyed or ruined; utter destruction, complete ruin. And the day of God or more well known day of the Lord is not a happy day for those in the flesh. If you do some home work on it.
God didn’t choose to be with all the nations, He chose to make a nation to be with, through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Didn’t He say He hated Esau and loved Jacob? You maybe correct about what you think, but what you think is incorrect.
No, Peter is not talking out of both sides of his mouth.DPMartin said:
He is issuing a very cogent warning.
That day is coming...but God is waiting. Why? Because He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Still, He can't put it off forever. Sooner or later, our time will be up.
Please, come to Him before that happens....
God promised Abraham that through his seed, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. So, in a sense, God did choose to be with all the nations.
As for Esau and Jacob...didn't Esau sell his birthright for a dish of food? Esau's heart was not right.
What I think is that the OSAS doctrine is one of the most dangerous false doctrines ever concocted by Satan and his unholy crew....perhaps THE most dangerous, because it lures people into thinking that they can sin, and still be good with God.
It is this Doctrine of Devils that convinces people that they can divorce, and remarry....even though they know that God hates divorce.
It is this Seducing Spirit that has convinced the gay community that they may continue in their degrading, sinful lifestyle, and still be accepted in Heaven, because, after all, they were "born that way".
Unhappily these people, and thousands more who think that God will wink at their sin, are in for a very unpleasant surprise.
That is why I will continue to fight this lascivious lie, till the end of my days....
Well thankfully God is love and not of religion. Believing in religion and believing in the resurrection are not the same.The Barrd said:Yes, ATP....a person who forsakes his religion.
Now, do you understand that, in order to forsake your religion, you have to have believed in it?
Can a man forsake his wife if he is not married?
Can a democrat forsake his political party if he never had one?
Can a barren woman forsake her children?
No. And you cannot forsake Christ unless you had once followed Him.
It isn't rocket science
Heb 13:5 NIV Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”
Nonbelievers are known to have the knowledge of God, the knowledge of truth, or knowing God but not accepting His salvation Rom 1:18 NIV, Rom 1:25 NIV, Rom 1:28 NIV, 1 Tim 6:20 NIV, 2 Pet 2:20 NIVThe Barrd said:
2 Peter 2:20 NIV Escaped / Just like any man that escapes sin. If he's an alcoholic then he will stop going to the liquor store, but not going to the liquor store doesn't cleanse you of your addiction. Only the free gift of salvation can do that and the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. The word "escaped" here in Greek is apopheugó, which means to flee from.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world,.... The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said (q),
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So then you do agree God did force Himself on Paul. This then opens the possibility of Him doing this to others even everyone. I personally do not believe this, that God forces Himself on everyone, but I am open to the possibility. I am certain that the Father draws to Himself all who are saved...The Barrd said:
Oh but my judgement is valid and can even be backed by scripture...The Barrd said:
First off if they had a complete saving faith they would not have left. The proof is in their actions.
1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
If someone "loses their salvation" that would mean God was in the process of saving someone but failed at that attempt.The Barrd said:
You still did not answer the question. Please give me a thoughtful and prayer filled answer.
No. That would be double predestination. God knows the final destination of everyone be it heaven or hell because He is omniscient. Everyone ever born is apportioned to God's plan for His glory, not because of fate but because of their personal choices through this life. Some will accept the gospel and God knows who will. Some will reject the gospel and God knows who will. Some will hear a twisted version of the gospel while others will never have a chance to hear the gospel at all. God knows who all of these are also. In His infinite wisdom God created all of this, in full knowledge of the circumstances and outcomes of everyone. Again God is omniscient, all knowing.The Barrd said:
God knows/knew all the possibilities of every form of creation with every possible variable conceivable. God chose this exact creation to bring about His glory, with the Lamb being slain before the foundations of the world. All of creation points to God and proclaims His glory. God is glorified showing His justice for those who go to hell. God is glorified showing His mercy for those who inherit the Kingdom. God is not culpable for anyone who goes to hell, because that is what we all deserve, due to sin. Man is in a state of total depravity where sin has been passed down through Adam unto everyone today.
This is a great verse speaking to God's goodness, His love, His compassion, and His willingness to show His mercy. I could exegete it properly if you like...The Barrd said:
Then God would not be just. Psalm 11:5 The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.The Barrd said:
God abhors sin, wickedness and inequity. God brings wickedness to a just end.
Also that is not His plan for His glory. Again creation points to God, not God to the creation. IOW its all about Him!
This question is similar to, "Why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden to begin with?"
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