The Doctrine of OSAS

[Barrd]

God judges those before the resurrection differently than after resurrection. I don't believe Judas had the spirit of faith when He died, but that's just me.

You know, I've wondered about that.
I mean, Judas had seen Jesus do some amazing things...even raising the dead.
Heck, Judas, himself, had been given the power at one time to raise the dead...so he knew it was possible.
He also knew that Jesus was a Man of Peace. There was no way He was going to ascend the throne of David unless He were pushed into it....surely He would not allow those filthy Roman dogs to actually crucify Him! Even Jesus would have to defend His Own life...right?
I might have thought that myself...or you might have...we can't know what we would have done in Judas' place, because....thank God...we have never been in that place.

Or...Judas may have been acting under orders. We know that the whole reason Jesus came to earth was to seek and save sinners...He knew He would have to suffer in order to accomplish this. And He did tell Judas to "do what you must do quickly"...

We do know that he was driven mad with his remorse, to the point where he hung himself. Did he repent? I dunno. Would it have done any good if he had? I dunno. But his role was necessary to our salvation....that I do know.

 

[ATP]

You know, I've wondered about that.

What are your thoughts on post 900.

 

[Barrd]

How can we lose our salvation when the seed of God will remain in us forever...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

- ATP

My thoughts are that there is a heck of a lot more to that scripture than you are quoting.
In fact, one of my very favorite verses is:

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

I mean "gird up the loins of your mind"....what a fabulous phrase! I love it!
And we need to do just that:

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

We are not called to sit around and wait for Jesus to come for us....we are called to be holy.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Now, why would Peter tell born again Christians to pass our time sojourning here in fear? What should we be afraid of?

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Should we fear God, then? Well, Jesus did say that we should fear Him Who could destroy both body and soul in hell...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Let's see...be holy, love the brethren fervently and with a pure heart....
Evidently there is more to this than just calling on His name. There are some other requirements here. How am I to meet these requirements?

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

And there it is. I can do it because I have been born again!

It always helps to read the entire passage, my friend.

 

[ATP]

My thoughts are that there is a heck of a lot more to that scripture than you are quoting.

Just give it up Barrd, it's checkmate. Do you understand what's going on. Imperishable seed, enduring word of God, God's seed remains in them, the truth lives in us forever. We don't stop sinning because of our righteousness, we stop sinning because God's seed never leaves us....

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

 

[Barrd]

That's because they did not have true saving faith. They had religion, but that's not the same. They did not belong to us 1 John 2:18-19 NIV. How can I forsake God when God won't forsake me? Heb 13:5 NIV. Dictionary............................... :blink:

noun http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apostate
1. a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.


By saying that OSAS is a lie, you are saying that God himself also lied to us and did not die for all sins...

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Rom 8:1-2 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:31-39 ESV What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

Heb 10:10-12 NIV And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

Okay, ATP....I will tackle these for you....again.
Ready?....Here we go....

I'll start with Hebrews 13:5, since that was the first verse you posted...and I don't want you to say later that I missed any of these.

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

A wonderful verse, with a wonderful promise...of course, the first half of the verse does have a couple of requirements...did you notice that?
But that isn't all....

Heb 13:1 Let brotherly love continue.
Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Heb 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Whoa...we are to let our love continue...I like that.
And entertain strangers just as you would entertain an angel...I like that, too.
Remember those in bonds...and we have them even today. We tend to forget that there are those suffering adversity, thinking we are safe from all that. Lord grant that we may continue to be safe....however, as someone else has said, the leopard is ready to pounce...
And the writer of Hebrews reminds us that marriage is sacred...a very timely reminder for Christians in the United States.

Moving on:

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Now, I could post the entire passage, but it is very long...and you won't read it all anyway. What is happening here is that Jesus is talking about what we now call the eucharist, or the Lord's Supper, which He says is His body and His blood, and further says that unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood we have no part with Him.
Understandably, this idea confused and upset many of His disciples...and who can blame them? As you probably know, there are Catholics who firmly believe that the bread and wine actually do become real flesh and blood...an idea that makes me nauseous. Of course, I believe that He was talking figuratively.
Anyway, I am not the only one with a weak stomach. Evidently, many of His disciples were also sickened by this idea...and they didn't seem to think He was speaking figuratively:

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Now, I'm sure you will try to tell me that these people "did not have the root of salvation in them." But the Bible doesn't say that. This verse expressly calls them "disciples", and says that they left Him.
And Jesus seems to be sad about it. See what He asks His chosen Apostles (and remember, Judas is still among them):

Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Of course, we know that they didn't...but Jesus thought it was important enough to ask the question. Yes, I'm sure He already knew the answer, just as He knew which of the twelve would betray Him. I suspect that it was for our benefit that He asked...

Next:

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

A beautiful passage indeed.
And yes...it speaks of the eternal security of the sheep.
Notice, however, that the sheep don't just hang out and graze...they respond to their Shepherd.
They hear His voice...indeed, they hang on every precious Word.
And they follow Him.
As I keep telling you, and you keep accusing me of preaching "works salvation"....there is a response required.

Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

How many times have I tried to tell you....Paul was a Jewish lawyer...and he thinks and writes like a Jewish lawyer. Here, he is explaining how Jesus took the penalty for breaking the law upon Himself, thus setting us free.
But there's a bit more to it than that:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

In other words, you were not set free from the law so that you could break it with impunity, but rather you are now to walk in the Spirit...that is, you must stay within the law. Why? Because to be carnally minded....that is, pleasing your flesh...is death, but to be spiritually minded...that is living within the law...is life and peace.

One more and that's it for tonight. I'll come back to it in the morning.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What a fabulous ending for this chapter!
But you've skipped through the meat to get to the desert.

For instance, you missed this admonition, a little way up the page:

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Another warning of dire doom if you should give in to the temptations of the flesh. We must "mortify the deeds of the body" if we wish to live. How do we do that? Through the Spirit that lives within us.
The Sons of God are not wandering around aimlessly, waiting for Dad to come pick them up. They are being led by the Spirit of God.

And if you are being led, you are expected to follow.

 

[Barrd]

Just give it up Barrd, it's checkmate. Do you understand what's going on. Imperishable seed, enduring word of God, God's seed remains in them, the truth lives in us forever. We don't stop sinning because of our righteousness, we stop sinning because God's seed never leaves us....

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

*sigh*
Once again, ATP...."gird up the loins of your mind".
In other words, my friend....THINK!

And no....I will never "give it up".
I take after my Father....I am not willing that you should perish....

 

[Barrd]

Besides, ATP....it is very rude to ask me for my thoughts, and then not bother to read the entire post.

You did not respond to my post. So I ask you...what are your thoughts? (Gird up the loins of your mind....if you dare.)

 

[ATP]

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Of course, I believe that He was talking figuratively.

Evidently, many of His disciples were also sickened by this idea...and they didn't seem to think He was speaking figuratively:

Ok, so you're saying everlasting life is figurative Rev 22:5 NIV? Interesting. I thought the bread and wine represented the body and the blood of Jesus shed on the cross, a literal event that took place. What do you believe John 2:19 NIV is in reference too.

Next:

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

A beautiful passage indeed.
And yes...it speaks of the eternal security of the sheep.
Notice, however, that the sheep don't just hang out and graze...they respond to their Shepherd.
They hear His voice...indeed, they hang on every precious Word.
And they follow Him.
As I keep telling you, and you keep accusing me of preaching "works salvation"....there is a response required.

Right, believers follow him because His seed never leaves them Barrd 1 John 3:9 NIV.

Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

How many times have I tried to tell you....Paul was a Jewish lawyer...and he thinks and writes like a Jewish lawyer. Here, he is explaining how Jesus took the penalty for breaking the law upon Himself, thus setting us free.

He broke the law upon himself, what do you mean?

 

[ATP]

I take after my Father....I am not willing that you should perish....

John 3:16 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[ATP]

You did not respond to my post. So I ask you...what are your thoughts? (Gird up the loins of your mind....if you dare.)

I believe we stop sinning because God's seed will never leave us 1 John 3:9 NIV.

 

[Barrd]

Ok, so you're saying everlasting life is figurative Rev 22:5 NIV? Interesting. I thought the bread and wine represented the body and the blood of Jesus shed on the cross, a literal event that took place. What do you believe John 2:19 NIV is in reference too.

Do you think that leaving out most of my post and misquoting me makes you look clever? It doesn't.
It makes you look desperate.

What I actually said, in response to your post:

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Now, I could post the entire passage, but it is very long...and you won't read it all anyway. What is happening here is that Jesus is talking about what we now call the eucharist, or the Lord's Supper, which He says is His body and His blood, and further says that unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood we have no part with Him.
Understandably, this idea confused and upset many of His disciples...and who can blame them? As you probably know, there are Catholics who firmly believe that the bread and wine actually do become real flesh and blood...an idea that makes me nauseous. Of course, I believe that He was talking figuratively.
Anyway, I am not the only one with a weak stomach. Evidently, many of His disciples were also sickened by this idea...and they didn't seem to think He was speaking figuratively:

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Now, I'm sure you will try to tell me that these people "did not have the root of salvation in them." But the Bible doesn't say that. This verse expressly calls them "disciples", and says that they left Him.
And Jesus seems to be sad about it. See what He asks His chosen Apostles (and remember, Judas is still among them):

Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Of course, we know that they didn't...but Jesus thought it was important enough to ask the question. Yes, I'm sure He already knew the answer, just as He knew which of the twelve would betray Him. I suspect that it was for our benefit that He asked...

Those other two verses you just posted were no part of this, and you know it, ATP.
It's all here on this very page...your subterfuge is apparent to all who care to read our posts.

Rev 22:5 has absolutely nothing at all to do with our discussion. I have no idea at all why you threw that in there.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

John 2:19? Are you pulling these out of the air?

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

You don't have to ask me what it is in reference to. The text is very plain:

Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Just exactly what are you playing at?

 

[Barrd]

He broke the law upon himself, what do you mean?

What kind of a response is that?

Again, what I actually said was:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

How many times have I tried to tell you....Paul was a Jewish lawyer...and he thinks and writes like a Jewish lawyer. Here, he is explaining how Jesus took the penalty for breaking the law upon Himself, thus setting us free.

You know very well that Jesus never broke the law, and so do I. He took our penalty.
And you knew that before you ever posted the verse in the first place.
This verse shouldn't even be in your list. But it was, and I dealt with it honestly.

Which is a lot more than you are doing....

 

[Barrd]

I believe we stop sinning because God's seed will never leave us 1 John 3:9 NIV.

That is not a response.
What I actually said was:

My thoughts are that there is a heck of a lot more to that scripture than you are quoting.
In fact, one of my very favorite verses is:

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

I mean "gird up the loins of your mind"....what a fabulous phrase! I love it!
And we need to do just that:

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

We are not called to sit around and wait for Jesus to come for us....we are called to be holy.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Now, why would Peter tell born again Christians to pass our time sojourning here in fear? What should we be afraid of?

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Should we fear God, then? Well, Jesus did say that we should fear Him Who could destroy both body and soul in hell...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Let's see...be holy, love the brethren fervently and with a pure heart....
Evidently there is more to this than just calling on His name. There are some other requirements here. How am I to meet these requirements?

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

And there it is. I can do it because I have been born again!

It always helps to read the entire passage, my friend.

If you can't answer, be man enough to say so.
Or woman enough, as the case may be. I just realized tonight that your gender is not given on your profile.
I wonder why?

 

[OzSpen]

How can we lose our salvation when the seed of God will remain in us forever...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

- ATP

So are the warning passages useless in giving us warnings? I'm thinking of:

• 1 Timothy 1:19 (ESV): 'holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith'.

• Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV): 'For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt'.

Oz

 

[justaname]

Barrd,

I wonder if you are planning on a response to my last post...?

Oz,

I am uncertain of ATP's position, yet I feel those warning passages are valid. In the case of the Hebrews passage I see the Jews going back under the Law, leaving faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. I actually had an excellent Hebrews class under a professor that did his doctorate on the book of Hebrews. He also holds to the perseverance of the saints doctrine.

I have never exegeted the Tim passage...

I would have to study that for a response.

I have posted the definition of the perseverance of the saints doctrine. I can do it again if you like.

 

[Barrd]

Barrd,

I wonder if you are planning on a response to my last post...?

Actually, Justaname, I am more concerned for these followers of yours.
But if I can help you, I certainly will.
Now, just so that you know, I do have a life outside of this site...although sometimes it doesn't seem so. I may have missed your last post. But if you will direct me back to it, I'll do my best....

 

[Barrd]

I am uncertain of ATP's position, yet I feel those warning passages are valid. In the case of the Hebrews passage I see the Jews going back under the Law, leaving faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. I actually had an excellent Hebrews class under a professor that did his doctorate on the book of Hebrews. He also holds to the perseverance of the saints doctrine.

How in the world do you get that the Hebrews passage could possibly have anything to do with the Jews going back under the law?
Have you actually read the entire chapter?
:wacko: Are you seriously telling us that someone who did his doctorate on Hebrews actually holds that Christians cannot fall away from their faith?
Honestly, sometimes I think you guys are trying to rewrite the entire New Testament.... :unsure:

 

[ATP]

Do you think that leaving out most of my post and misquoting me makes you look clever? It doesn't.
It makes you look desperate.

What I actually said, in response to your post:

The bread and wine are describing a literal event Barrd.
Once you believe you have eternal life. Real faith, real eternal life.
Notice the word sheep in John 10:25-30 NIV.
The lost sheep haven't found salvation yet...

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

So are the warning passages useless in giving us warnings? I'm thinking of:

• 1 Timothy 1:19 (ESV): 'holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith'.

• Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV): 'For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt'.

Oz

What does Heb 6:1 NIV version say about repentance.
If you also notice Heb 6:7-8 NIV,
the crop, the farmer, thorns and thistles are related to the root of salvation.
These jews did not have the root Matt 13:20-23 NIV.
We hold on to our faith because the seed of God remains in us forever...
Matt 13:20-23 NIV, Luke 8:11 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV
Blessings Oz.

 

[Barrd]

The bread and wine are describing a literal event Barrd.
Once you believe you have eternal life. Real faith, real eternal life.
Notice the word sheep in John 10:25-30 NIV.
The lost sheep haven't found salvation yet...

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”


What does Heb 6:1 NIV version say about repentance.
If you also notice Heb 6:7-8 NIV,
the crop, the farmer, thorns and thistles are related to the root of salvation.
These jews did not have the root Matt 13:20-23 NIV.
We hold on to our faith because the seed of God remains in us forever...
Matt 13:20-23 NIV, Luke 8:11 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV
Blessings Oz.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Now, I could post the entire passage, but it is very long...and you won't read it all anyway. What is happening here is that Jesus is talking about what we now call the eucharist, or the Lord's Supper, which He says is His body and His blood, and further says that unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood we have no part with Him.
Understandably, this idea confused and upset many of His disciples...and who can blame them? As you probably know, there are Catholics who firmly believe that the bread and wine actually do become real flesh and blood...an idea that makes me nauseous. Of course, I believe that He was talking figuratively.
Anyway, I am not the only one with a weak stomach. Evidently, many of His disciples were also sickened by this idea...and they didn't seem to think He was speaking figuratively:

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Now, I'm sure you will try to tell me that these people "did not have the root of salvation in them." But the Bible doesn't say that. This verse expressly calls them "disciples", and says that they left Him.
And Jesus seems to be sad about it. See what He asks His chosen Apostles (and remember, Judas is still among them):

Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Of course, we know that they didn't...but Jesus thought it was important enough to ask the question. Yes, I'm sure He already knew the answer, just as He knew which of the twelve would betray Him. I suspect that it was for our benefit that He asked..

Obviously, the Last Supper was a very real event.
However, the disciples were not eating and drinking real flesh or real blood. Jesus stood there, among them, still alive...He was not carving bits of Himself or slitting His veins to feed them His real flesh and blood.

In any case, you did not address my post at all....nor do I expect you to.

And once again, you've tossed yet another Scripture at me....

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

And I already dealt with this one. You are proving that you don't actually bother to read what I post, ATP, which has been obvious for some time.
I told you....there is a response here. His sheep cannot be plucked out of the Father's hand because they hear His voice....and they follow Him.

They are obedient to Him, ATP.
They aren't just hanging around the field grazing...they are actively following Him.
Those sheep who will not hear Him or follow Him are lost. They are meat to the wolf and the lion and the bear. They will not have eternal life because they have wandered outside of the Shepherd's protection.

In other words, those who have eternal life are those who hear Him and who follow Him.
They will be those who love Him enough to obey His commands, ATP.

 

[justaname]

Actually, Justaname, I am more concerned for these followers of yours.
But if I can help you, I certainly will.
Now, just so that you know, I do have a life outside of this site...although sometimes it doesn't seem so. I may have missed your last post. But if you will direct me back to it, I'll do my best....

#886...

How in the world do you get that the Hebrews passage could possibly have anything to do with the Jews going back under the law?
Have you actually read the entire chapter?
:wacko: Are you seriously telling us that someone who did his doctorate on Hebrews actually holds that Christians cannot fall away from their faith?
Honestly, sometimes I think you guys are trying to rewrite the entire New Testament.... :unsure:

I am beginning to wonder if you are actually trying to understand what we say or simply block out everything you don't like to hear...