The Doctrine of OSAS

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Barrd

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ATP said:
You're using parables to prove your point? :lol:

Maybe you should write us a poem Barrd.

Nah, but seriously. That's like proving soul sleep is false by using Luke 16:19-31 NIV.
Why do you think Christ told parables?
Didn't you use the parable of the sower, yourself?

And just for the record....do you have a problem with poetry?
 

OzSpen

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ATP said:
What does Heb 6:1 NIV version say about repentance.
If you also notice Heb 6:7-8 NIV,
the crop, the farmer, thorns and thistles are related to the root of salvation.
These jews did not have the root Matt 13:20-23 NIV.
We hold on to our faith because the seed of God remains in us forever...
Matt 13:20-23 NIV, Luke 8:11 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV
Blessings Oz.
That's hardly a satisfactory explanation because these Jews have:
  • 'once been enlightened';
  • 'tasted the heavenly gift';
  • 'shared in the Holy Spirit';
  • 'tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come' (Heb 6:4-6 ESV).
Then they 'fall away' from that salvation of sharing in the Holy Spirit and experiencing the word of God and the powers of God's age to come.

To make this apply to the parable of the sower is inappropriate as the information from Heb 6:4-6 (ESV) demonstrates that they had been saved. So much saved that now they have fallen away from the faith, 'it is impossible to restore them to repentance' (6:4). They can't be restored to something they didn't have.

Seems like you are avoiding the exact content of Heb 6:4-6 (ESV).
 

OzSpen

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ATP said:
Once we believe we may know and have confidence that we have eternal life 1 John 5:13-14 NIV. You still have work to do...
That is not exactly what 1 John 5:13-14 (NIV) teaches. It reads:

[SIZE=66%] [/SIZE]I write these things to you who believe [Gk present tense] in the name of the Son of God[SIZE=66%]i[/SIZE] so that you may know [Gk perfect tense] that you have [Gk present tense] eternal life. [SIZE=66%]14 [/SIZE]This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
The Greek present tense generally means continuing or continuous action. In the indicative mood (as with 'you have'), the durative action monopolises the present tense, but since there is no punctiliar [aorist kind of] action in the present time, the Greek present tense has to do the work of both continuing and punctiliar action. Nevertheless, 'it is to be borne in mind that the idea of present time is secondary in the force of the [present] tense.... The progressive force of the present tense should always be considered as primary, especially with reference to the potential moods' (Dana & Mantey 1955:181).

The Greek perfect tense means past action with continuing results in the present. 'Its basal significance is the progress of an act or state to the point of culmination.... The significance of the perfect tense in presenting action as having reached its termination and existing in its finished results lies at the basis of its uses. Emphasis, as indicated by the context or the meaning of the verb root, may be on either the completion of the action or on its finished results' (Dana & Mantey 1955:200, 201).

Applying this Greek grammar to 1 John 5:13-14 (NIV) means that:
  1. John is writing to those who continue to believe in the Son of God, i.e. in Jesus. He is not writing to those who once believed and then quit believing.
  2. These believers may know that they continue to have eternal life because of what happened in the past (salvation) and those results are evident, or have culminated, in the present.
  3. In my understanding of the Greek, it doesn't teach OSAS.
Oz

Works consulted
Dana, H E & Mantey, J R 1955. A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament. Toronto, Ontario: The Macmillan Company.
 

OzSpen

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DPMartin said:
Well there are some who don’t believe in the sovereignty of God. Many freewill types are anarchists in nature and don’t see how God can make them do anything.
The whole chapter hits on this subject.:

Rom:9:13-26.

There’s One God, what choice is there but God’s choice for us.

Those who think they have a choice in the matter believe they can loss or leave the faith. Hence giving themselves credit for their salvation, by judging for themselves that God is good for them. God don’t go for that, no can do.

They simply don’t believe that their destruction is a righteous thing, hence the lack of repentance and fear of God, required for God’s Mercy.
You have made some unfortunate presumptions in this post:
  • You claim there are 'some who don't believe in the sovereignty of God'. That may be so, but you gave not one example - not one.
  • Your statement: 'Many freewill types are anarchists in nature and don’t see how God can make them do anything'. That's an inflammatory statement without any examples to support your claim. Besides, your labelling free will types as 'anarchists' is very interpretive. What causes you to reach such a dramatic, provocative conclusion?
  • You say people credit themselves with salvation. Again, no examples provided.
  • 'God don’t go for that, no can do.' That is strange grammar and a provocative statement.
  • 'They simply don’t believe that their destruction is a righteous thing'. That is not a proven statement.
  • 'hence the lack of repentance and fear of God, required for God’s Mercy', again this is judgmentalism without examples.
With your kind of response, you don't seem to be wanting to engage with people about this topic.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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ATP said:
All these websites and commentaries. <_<

Believe what the word of God says, and understand eternal language in your hearts people....

1. imperishable
2. enduring
3. remains
4. forever

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

- ATP
You're plucking verses, but without exegesis.
 

OzSpen

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justaname said:
Truly the POTS doctrine is irrefutable in its language. Concerning the OSAS doctrine, I do not know of clear language defining it. It seems to be up for grabs for antinomians and the like to latch onto.

I do not see the possibility of the born again believer losing salvation. I like Arminius though dare not speak in absolute terms concerning this issue. But losing salvation seems illogical and impossible.

God only saves those who are His, and He knows all of His own. For Him to begin the salvation process on an individual He knows is apostate is illogical, thereby that would go against His nature. A philosophical argument I know, but a valid one.

Also if there is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus, it is impossible to become condemned once you are in Christ Jesus.

From the human perspective...God's mystery of salvation remains hidden until the consummation.

I especially like this from your post...


Though I here openly and ingenuously affirm, I never taught that a true believer can, either totally or finally fall away from the faith, and perish; yet I will not conceal, that there are passages of scripture which seem to me to wear this aspect; and those answers to them which I have been permitted to see, are not of such a kind as to approve themselves on all points to my understanding. On the other hand, certain passages are produced for the contrary doctrine [of unconditional perseverance] which are worthy of much consideration.
justaname,

You say, 'I do not see the possibility of the born again believer losing salvation.... But losing salvation seems illogical and impossible'. For me, I consider the biblical evidence (as I've suggested above) points to the born again person who continues to believe as one who cannot lose his/her salvation. Losing salvation (committing apostasy) is not illogical and impossible if God has built such a plan into His soteriology.

You state, 'God only saves those who are His, and He knows all of His own'. Is this your affirmation of unconditional election and limited atonement?

justaname: 'For Him to begin the salvation process on an individual He knows is apostate is illogical, thereby that would go against His nature'. I think you have some unproven presuppositions here. You claim God begins salvation on someone He knows is apostate. That is not what I stated. Heb 6:4-6 confirms that God offers salvation to some who begin the Christian life and then become apostate. That is seen and understood from God's eternal perspective in his omniscience. It is not illogical if it is seen as God's plan for humanity that there will be those who choose to fall away from, leave, apostasise from the faith. Again, we are talking about God's plan of soteriology and you and I are understanding it from 2 different perspectives. Our hermeneutics don't agree.

The part of the post you liked was from Arminius himself, the theologian who has been the butt of so much retribution from Calvinists. I do wish more Calvinists would read Arminius' works as I have chosen to do. Many of his teachings are much closer to those of Calvinism in total inability (depravity) and perseverance of the saints.

I consider that you made a very wise observation in what you said to another poster that teaching on God's sovereignty too often turns into the promotion of fatalism.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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ATP said:
It's amazing how many times the word "believe" is in the Bible. God really puts it in our face. To put it to rest, the "truth" will be in us forever...Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 2 Thess 2:12 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV. Amen.

Mark 16:16 NIV Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
How many of the uses of 'believe' are present tense, indicating continuous believing to experience salvation?
 

justaname

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OzSpen said:
justaname,

You say, 'I do not see the possibility of the born again believer losing salvation.... But losing salvation seems illogical and impossible'. For me, I consider the biblical evidence (as I've suggested above) points to the born again person who continues to believe as one who cannot lose his/her salvation. Losing salvation (committing apostasy) is not illogical and impossible if God has built such a plan into His soteriology.

You state, 'God only saves those who are His, and He knows all of His own'. Is this your affirmation of unconditional election and limited atonement?

justaname: 'For Him to begin the salvation process on an individual He knows is apostate is illogical, thereby that would go against His nature'. I think you have some unproven presuppositions here. You claim God begins salvation on someone He knows is apostate. That is not what I stated. Heb 6:4-6 confirms that God offers salvation to some who begin the Christian life and then become apostate. That is seen and understood from God's eternal perspective in his omniscience. It is not illogical if it is seen as God's plan for humanity that there will be those who choose to fall away from, leave, apostasise from the faith. Again, we are talking about God's plan of soteriology and you and I are understanding it from 2 different perspectives. Our hermeneutics don't agree.

The part of the post you liked was from Arminius himself, the theologian who has been the butt of so much retribution from Calvinists. I do wish more Calvinists would read Arminius' works as I have chosen to do. Many of his teachings are much closer to those of Calvinism in total inability (depravity) and perseverance of the saints.

I consider that you made a very wise observation in what you said to another poster that teaching on God's sovereignty too often turns into the promotion of fatalism.

Oz
I think the term apostate we agree upon. I simply would not use the term "lose salvation". I believe our hermeneutics agree, just not the way we use terminology. Maybe I am wrong here. Would you care to expand?

For the short answer I do not affirm limited atonement. Unconditional election is something I have handles on, yet I have not come to definite conclusions to justify a position.

Without question God displays sovereignty and choice throughout history; think Israel.

I did understand that bit came from Arminius.
I also understand he and Calvin are much closer than the debate seems to be today. I am not steeped in too much study of either though, just tipping the iceberg so to speak.

The Bible presents that we are saved (continual) and will be saved. This then means salvation is a process. Once God begins this process, seals the believer with the Holy Spirit, and the believer is born again into an imperishable life, God will continue this process. This is where I think we agree...
 

Wormwood

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ATP,

Almost every verse you are quoting uses a present participle for "believe." Thus, "believe" is not a past tense act, but a present, ongoing act. If someone ceases to believe, then none of those verses apply to them because of the present tense participles. I think those verses only substantiate the fact that they are not applicable to someone who once believed but does so no longer.
 

DPMartin

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OzSpen said:
You have made some unfortunate presumptions in this post:
  • You claim there are 'some who don't believe in the sovereignty of God'. That may be so, but you gave not one example - not one.
  • Your statement: 'Many freewill types are anarchists in nature and don’t see how God can make them do anything'. That's an inflammatory statement without any examples to support your claim. Besides, your labelling free will types as 'anarchists' is very interpretive. What causes you to reach such a dramatic, provocative conclusion?
  • You say people credit themselves with salvation. Again, no examples provided.
  • 'God don’t go for that, no can do.' That is strange grammar and a provocative statement.
  • 'They simply don’t believe that their destruction is a righteous thing'. That is not a proven statement.
  • 'hence the lack of repentance and fear of God, required for God’s Mercy', again this is judgmentalism without examples.
With your kind of response, you don't seem to be wanting to engage with people about this topic.

Oz
The posting is directed to justaname I do believe, of which justaname responded and I responded so on and so forth.
If you want to take exception to anything stated in the posting you seem to have a problem with, then maybe you should show why the statements aren’t true in your view. Then we might have something to discuss or argue. Otherwise it seems you’ve got some expectations that don’t meet your approval, of which I don’t believe I, or anyone else here, have any obligation to fulfill.
 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
The Bible is for everyone.
I do not believe for one minute that God meant His Word to be understood only by people with seminary degrees....
It is for simple people....like fishermen, and carpenters, and tentmakers, and housewives.
God, in His Word, doesn't use words like "exegesis", or "hermenuetics"....He simply says "come unto Me, all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest"...

The thing that bothers me about the OSAS doctrine is that people use it to hide behind. I've known too many Baptists, for instance, who openly admit that their divorce and remarriage is sinful...they know that God hates divorce...but they will cheerfully tell you that, since all of their sins were forgiven at Calvary, and since Jesus will never leave them or forsake them, they are, (you should pardon the expression) "good to go".
In my very humble opinion, the danger is that this doctrine encourages people to think that they can do whatever sin feels good to them, and God will welcome them into His heaven anyway....as if they could stroll into His Mansion, put their feet up on His golden coffee table, flick some ashes on the floor from their cigarette, and tell God, "Hey, get me a beer, willya?"
 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
 

ATP

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Wormwood said:
ATP,

Almost every verse you are quoting uses a present participle for "believe." Thus, "believe" is not a past tense act, but a present, ongoing act. If someone ceases to believe, then none of those verses apply to them because of the present tense participles. I think those verses only substantiate the fact that they are not applicable to someone who once believed but does so no longer.
Not quite, justification only comes once WW. Sanctification is the on going process...

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

OzSpen said:
That's hardly a satisfactory explanation because these Jews have:
  • 'once been enlightened';
  • 'tasted the heavenly gift';
  • 'shared in the Holy Spirit';
  • 'tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come' (Heb 6:4-6 ESV).
None of the terms used here are used anywhere else in scripture to refer to salvation. Nor are any of the normal New Testament terms and synonyms for salvation used in this passage. Nowhere is it stated that these people have been justified, sanctified, born again, regenerated, or saved. No mention is made of faith or of eternal life. Verse 6 does not say that these people cannot be renewed to salvation, but that they cannot be renewed to repentance..repentance that leads to death Heb 6:1 NIV.

OzSpen said:
Then they 'fall away' from that salvation of sharing in the Holy Spirit and experiencing the word of God and the powers of God's age to come.
They fell away because they did not have the root of salvation Oz.

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

OzSpen said:
You're plucking verses, but without exegesis.
Why don't you enlighten us then...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

OzSpen said:
How many of the uses of 'believe' are present tense, indicating continuous believing to experience salvation?
No Oz, we are only justified once. Sanctification is the on going process...

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
 

H. Richard

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According to the scriptures Jesus' shed blood paid for the sins of the whole world. I believe this to be true. Therefore, since all my/our sins of the flesh have been paid for by Jesus the only thing that can condemn me/us under grace is the sin of unbelief. To not believe God when He says He paid for all of our sins.

I find it so sad that those in the Lake of Fire will realize that their pardon was paid by God and they only had to believe it.

H.Richard
 

Barrd

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H. Richard said:
According to the scriptures Jesus' shed blood paid for the sins of the whole world. I believe this to be true. Therefore, since all my/our sins of the flesh have been paid for by Jesus the only thing that can condemn me/us under grace is the sin of unbelief. To not believe God when He says He paid for all of our sins.

I find it so sad that those in the Lake of Fire will realize that their pardon was paid by God and they only had to believe it.

H.Richard
Demons also believe....and tremble.
You do realize, of course, that those demons know all about the cross, and all the rest of it?
And yet they tremble.
 

H. Richard

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The Barrd said:
Demons also believe....and tremble.
You do realize, of course, that those demons know all about the cross, and all the rest of it?
And yet they tremble.
What does this have to do with what I wrote? Doesn't the scriptures teach that Jesus' shed blood paid for the sins of the whole world? If this is true then aren't those sins paid for? To believe that they are not paid for is the sin of unbelief.

I have never read that Demons were offered salvation by Jesus' shed blood.

H. Richard
 

ATP

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H. Richard said:
According to the scriptures Jesus' shed blood paid for the sins of the whole world. I believe this to be true. Therefore, since all my/our sins of the flesh have been paid for by Jesus the only thing that can condemn me/us under grace is the sin of unbelief. To not believe God when He says He paid for all of our sins.

I find it so sad that those in the Lake of Fire will realize that their pardon was paid by God and they only had to believe it.

H.Richard
Amen.

Barrd doesn't understand that demons haven't accepted Jesus as Savior.
 

OzSpen

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justaname said:
I think the term apostate we agree upon. I simply would not use the term "lose salvation". I believe our hermeneutics agree, just not the way we use terminology. Maybe I am wrong here. Would you care to expand?

For the short answer I do not affirm limited atonement. Unconditional election is something I have handles on, yet I have not come to definite conclusions to justify a position.

Without question God displays sovereignty and choice throughout history; think Israel.

I did understand that bit came from Arminius.
I also understand he and Calvin are much closer than the debate seems to be today. I am not steeped in too much study of either though, just tipping the iceberg so to speak.

The Bible presents that we are saved (continual) and will be saved. This then means salvation is a process. Once God begins this process, seals the believer with the Holy Spirit, and the believer is born again into an imperishable life, God will continue this process. This is where I think we agree...
I'm not sure what you want me 'to expand' on. Would you please clarify?

I don't think I'm on target with your last paragraph. I'm not of the view that God zaps people with unconditional election and they are IN the kingdom, NEVER to be excluded. That's not what happened with the Philippian jailer according to Acts 16:30-31 (ESV): 'Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household”'. They did not say, 'Just leave it to God/Jesus; he decides if you are ever going to be saved'. No, these evangelists said, '(You) believe in the Lord Jesus....' As I understand soteriology, there is no salvation without the human responsibility of believing'. However, you and I know that salvation is of the Lord - from the Lord.

I find a better biblical emphasis than unconditional election to be that found in Titus 2:11 (ESV): 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'. This does not promote universalism, BUT it proves how God's saving grace is universal - is available to all. This is in contrast to Calvin's limited grace. I'll see if I can find this in Calvin's commentary online (I have it in a secondary source). Too often I've left CyB while composing a piece and when I returned, what I'd written had disappeared into the ethereal cloud.

Here it is:

Calvin's commentary on Titus 2:11 states of this phrase:
'Bringing salvation to all men, That it is common to all is expressly testified by him on account of the slaves of whom he had spoken. Yet he does not mean individual men, but rather describes individual classes, or various ranks of life. And this is not a little emphatic, that the grace of God hath let itself down even to the race of slaves; for, since God does not despise men of the lowest and most degraded condition, it would be highly unreasonable that we should be negligent and slothful to embrace his goodness'.
I find this to be an abominable piece of eisegesis. Calvin, a very accomplished commentator, has made 'all men' refer NOT to all individual men [meaning all human beings] but to individual classes of people and those in various ranks of life, including the race of slaves.

This is as bad a piece of exegesis that I've read anywhere as he makes 'all men' = some slaves and some from other classes and ranks in life. This is what happens when a commentator allows his predisposed presupposition (God's grace cannot be extended to all, but only to the elect) to intrude into his interpretation. Thus exegesis of this phrase in Titus 2;11 has become eisegesis in the hands of a Reformed Calvinist, the founder of the movement.

Oz
 

Barrd

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ATP said:
Amen.

Barrd doesn't understand that demons haven't accepted Jesus as Savior.
The Barrd does understand that God's Holy Angels once enjoyed His favor. They once lived with Him in Heaven. They once were His intimate friends. No human has ever been as close to God as Lucifer once was. If anyone could ever claim that he was secure in God's love, surely it was Lucifer....most beautiful of the angels.
And yet, there was a rebellion in Heaven....Lucifer fell...God cast Him out of Heaven...and he took fully a third of the Holy Angels with him.
You did know that Satan was once one of God's most loved angel, didn't you?
And where is he now?

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment...

Dare we, then, to suppose that our own "security" might not be compromised, should we also rebel?
And what is sin, but rebellion against God?

Forget the web sites. Any idiot can put up a web site....and you'd be surprised at how many of them do. Sure there are thousands-even millions-of sites that support OSAS. But I can pull up just as many that refute it.
Forget what you may have heard from behind some pulpit. Pastors and preachers are going to preach whatever their denomination requires...if they didn't, they wouldn't have a job. Can you imagine how tough things could get for an out-of-work pastor? These days, they don't even have to write their own stuff....you can download sermons from the internet. Even laymen like you and me can do it, and it's free.
Forget the scholars....they don't even agree with each other, let alone with Jesus.

Jesus. Yeah, remember Him?
There is a lot more to Him than the Blood He shed at Calvary. Much, much more. If you could manage to leave Paul for a bit, and flip back to the gospels, you'd find that He had quite a bit to say.

I've suggested to ATP before....read the Sermon on the Mount.
Really READ it.
You can find it in the Gospel according to Matthew, chapters 5, 6, and 7.
Some of the most beautiful words ever spoken are there....but I never hear any of you OSASers quoting them.
I wonder why not?