The Doctrine of OSAS

[H. Richard]

That doesn't answer the question. Why would Jesus have to die for one's future sins?

If Jesus' shed blood does not pay for future sins of the flesh then tell us how they are paid for???

 

[OzSpen]

Go to the Greek Barrd. It'll give you the answer...some shall depart from the faith, not saving faith.."departed" in 1 Tim 4:1-2 NIV is translated "aphistémi" which means to lead away, to depart from. Also notice in Luke 8:13 NIV the same word "aphistémi" is used for the term "fall away". Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation...

Luke 8:13 NIV Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

That's not the assessment of the meaning of aphistēmi in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) where it explains the meaning of aphistēmi:

'In the NT the religious sense is at least found alongside others. In Ac. 15:38; 5:37; 19:9 the word seems to acquire increasingly the emphatic sense of religious apostasy. In Hb. 3:12 it is used expressly of religious decline from God.... The apostasy entails an unbelief which abandons hope. According to 1 Tim 4:1 apostasy implies capitualation to the false beliefs of heretics. This is found in Lk. 8:13 where aphistasthai is used absolutely' (TDNT vol 1, p. 513).

Kittel explains the meaning of the noun, apostasia: 'The word presupposed the concept ... "to be an apostate," and thus signifies the state of apostasy.... In the LXX ... it is particularly employed, however, in the religious sense, Jos. 22:22; Jer. 2:19; 2 Ch. 29:19 (the apostasy of Ahaz); 22:19 (of Manasseh)'. In the NT, in Acts 21:21, 'the reproach is brought against Paul.... Materially this implies the rejection of the Torah. In 2 Th. 2:3 apostasia is used in the absolute sense as an event of the last days alongside or prior to (?) the appearance of the [man of lawlessness]. Here a Jewish tradition is adopted which speaks of complete apostasy from God and His Torah shortly before the appearance of the Messiah. This is applied to the apostasy of Christians from their faith to error and unrighteousness (v. 11f.) in the last days (Matt. 24:11f). Again we have the situation of Lk. 8:13' (TDNT, vol 1, p. 513).

To commit apostasy is a serious situation. It refers to repudiation of faith in God, a total desertion or departure from any religion, but in this case it refers to a total desertion from the Christian faith. The NT teaches that it is possible to desert the Christian faith and commit apostasy.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Are you now trying to tell me that I need a PHD to read my local newspaper?
I will continue to say and to believe....the Bible was intended for simple people.
Like fishermen, and carpenters, and tentmakers, and housewives.
Fishermen like Peter, and Andrew, and James, and John. Jesus was a carpenter, wasn't he? And didn't He deal with simple women? And Paul was a tentmaker. Yes, he had been educated at the feet of the great Jewish Rabbi, Gamalial....but that fancy education didn't do him one bit of good when it came to recognizing His Lord and his King.

Throwing around a bunch of $5.00 words does not bring anyone closer to Christ. Not that I have anything against higher education...far from it! But, when it comes to knowing God, there is no professor on earth that can take His place as Teacher. If anything, from what I've seen, it only serves to confuse the issue.
How is it that in 2000 years, we have managed to rip the body of Christ into over 30,000 little pieces? And each "denomination" has their own "Learned Ones". Problem is, they don't seem to have the same learning....in fact there are some rather violent disagreements about basic things...like baptism for instance.
Remember, Christ only confused the great lawyers and doctors of His time...the people who enthusiastically followed Him for three years were the simple people...the backwoods hicks...them wut didna have no book larnin'...
The very first people the angels came to to announce the Holy Birth were not the Learned Ones....they were a bunch of ragged, dirty sheep herders, fevvinsakes!

Those $5.00 words and a nice pair of tortoise shell glasses (with gold screws) might make you look smart....but they don't prove that you know what you're talking about when it comes to the things of God.

Your response commits a red herring logical fallacy. When you engage in fallacious reasoning like this, we cannot have a logical conversation.

 

[OzSpen]

But we're so used to hearing Him called things like "the son of perdition" that we never even think of these things. May God forgive me, but he breaks my heart...

Anyway, he is a prime example that we can, indeed fall from grace. And what a fall was there!!

Isn't it strange that no one ever thinks of Abraham as being wicked for being so willing to kill his son Isaac. We simply mark it down to his faith. I've often wondered what Sarah thought about the whole idea....I know I would have been furious! The very idea, offering my baby as a burnt offering! There is going to be trouble in the tent, old man...

But Judas, who actually did what had to be done for our sakes, for if Christ had not been crucified, where would our salvation be?...Judas is reviled and hated and called all kinds of vile things.

The Barrd,

Yes, Judas is a classic example of someone who lost his election (salvation?), yet his apostasy was prophesied to be a part of the process of what took place that took Jesus to Golgotha to be a blood sacrifice for us and provide salvation for those who believe in Him.

 

[Barrd]

Your response commits a red herring logical fallacy. When you engage in fallacious reasoning like this, we cannot have a logical conversation.

I do tend to get sarcastic around midnight...
But still...I believe that the Bible must be understandable by simple people...even young children, Oz.
None of the Apostles were college men...not one. Most of them were fishermen from the province of Galilee.
And what I said was true...Paul, who could boast of having a higher education, needed Jesus to knock him off of his high horse and blind him before he could see the truth. His parents must have had money, because they apparently bought Roman citizenship for their family. And, as I said, he had the best "higher education" that was available to a young Jewish lad at that time.
And it is also true that almost every denomination has their halls of higher learning...the problem is that they don't seem to "all speak the same things".

Honestly, I have nothing against education...far from it! But look at you and Justaname....your debate is interesting....but here we have two very intelligent, well educated and well spoken people...and yet you do not agree.

It is sad, don't you think, that the church that God purchased with His Own blood, is torn apart? And over some of the silliest issues, like, how much water does it take to baptize someone, or whether to sprinkle, pour or dunk? Forward or backward?
The Church of Christ, just as a for instance, has a huge "thing" about not having instrumental music in their service...as if God is going to keep anyone out of heaven because their church had a piano or an organ in it. Oh, but, then there is another group...same denomination...that broke away because they do want instrumental music....and the arguing is fierce. And they have colleges, too! One of my boys was nearly taken in by the COC...even thought about attending their David Lipscomb College, which is how I know about them.

Anyway, if I offended you, Oz, I do most humbly apologize.

 

[OzSpen]

Hebrews 6:4 is the most difficult passage to reconcile concerning the "loss of salvation" issue, so for now I will only address this one.

The text infers that believers can apostatize. What I see is the concern of expressed followers of Christ returning to Judaism. As they are enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly gift, and been made partakers of the Holy Spirt, it is difficult to deny a regenerate state, although some still do.

As before mentioned I had a Hebrews class where the professor did His doctorate on this book. His contention is the continual theme in the book of Hebrews of the nation people of Israel wandering through the desert being the people alluded to here and a simile being drawn. The wanderers were enlightened through the knowledge of God; the heavenly gift being the manna from heaven; and the Holy Spirit being the cloud by day and fire by night. These then are the true subject being spoken of..."For in the case of those"...

This is a strong case and shows validity still allowing for a natural reading of the text. Those reading the text would relate as it is a reoccurring theme, the wandering nation people, throughout the book.

Yet my contention has never been inability of apostasy, rather apostasy is the evidence of the lack of saving faith. From God's perspective the apostate was never in His plan for salvation. This then still affirms the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. God in His omniscience only "saves" those who are His. This to me invalidates the term "lose your salvation".

It is also possible the author is concerned not of the entire group apostatizing, rather is attempting to strengthen the waning portion. "Partakers" can then mean those who are surrounded by believers that will not apostatize, thus affiliated with the visible Church.

Bible Knowledge Commentary:

6:4–6. This passage has been interpreted in four ways: (1) that the danger of a Christian losing his salvation is described, a view rejected because of biblical assurances that salvation is a work of God which cannot be reversed; (2) that the warning is against mere profession of faith short of salvation, or tasting but not really partaking of salvation (The New Scofield Reference Bible, p. 1315); (3) that hypothetically if a Christian could lose his salvation, there is no provision for repentance (The Ryrie Study Bible, p. 1736); (4) that a warning is given of the danger of a Christian moving from a position of true faith and life to the extent of becoming disqualified for further service (1 Cor. 9:27) and for inheriting millennial glory. The latter is the interpretation adopted here.


Here though is the redeeming factor concerning this pericope...

9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,
12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


Here the fear is removed and the assurance is built again in the hearts of the believers. This portion directs the readers attention to what is called the "full assurance of hope", to not be sluggish, and to be imitators of those with great faith. It possible the author uses these strong words as a means of exhortation to stir fear in the hearts of those contemplating returning to Judaism, then confirms their assurance of perseverance. This in no way is a lie because this is the true outcome of the apostate, yet the author is convinced of better things.

justaname,

I refer you to my response at #1102 where I quoted Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the NT and its examination of the verbal and noun uses of apostasy in the NT that do not refer to those who had a lack of saving faith. In fact, the word 'apostasy' means: 'The abandonment of a religious or political belief or principle' (Oxford dictionaries online). One cannot commit apostasy if one does not already have a saving faith. To 'abandon' a faith means that you had it in the first place to be able to abandon it.

Could it be that you are stuck in the groove of eternal security (as I was for many years of my faith as a Baptist) and could not see these verses that affirm the possibility of apostasy -- falling away from a genuine faith?

 

[ATP]

That's not the assessment of the meaning of aphistēmi in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) where it explains the meaning of aphistēmi:

But they use that word in the same passage as having no root of salvation. Who is kitten philosopy?

To commit apostasy is a serious situation. It refers to repudiation of faith in God, a total desertion or departure from any religion, but in this case it refers to a total desertion from the Christian faith. The NT teaches that it is possible to desert the Christian faith and commit apostasy.

How can a believer depart from God when God's imperishable seed remains in them forever? :huh:

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

Yes, Judas is a classic example of someone who lost his election (salvation?), yet his apostasy was prophesied to be a part of the process of what took place that took Jesus to Golgotha to be a blood sacrifice for us and provide salvation for those who believe in Him.

Judas died before Pentecost and the seal of God was not on him yet.

 

[OzSpen]

Now, it seems to me that, if there could be a fear that believers might be contemplating returning to Judaism, the writer thinks there may be a possibility that they might do so.

Also, if you color the scriptures with your belief that God has pre-chosen each one who will be saved, thus negating any free will the believer may have, of course you will not see any possibility that a believer might fall from grace and be lost.
But then...if God has pre-chosen His elect, then why bother to preach the gospel to the lost in the first place?
Why didn't He start choosing people before the missionaries risked life and limb to bring the gospel to them?

No...the God you paint just doesn't sound at all like the God of the Bible....

The Barrd,

You have made some superb observations here. If God has predestined believers through unconditional election, what's the point of evangelism? I guess the response will be: 'That's the way God has done it in his plan of salvation. He has chosen these people absolutely and there is no way that they can ever be lost.'

In fact, my wife used to play piano in a Presbyterian Church where the pastor is a TULIP Calvinist. That church does no outreach evangelism. Why? The pastor told me: 'God will bring them in - the predestined ones'. Many Calvinistic people don't believe like that, but that was this church leader's view.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I'm going to let you in on a little secret.
I really don't care about rewards. If I should win some, fine, if not, fine.
I will be content just to be in the presence of my Lord and my God. Nothing else matters but getting close enough to Him to touch Him. I have a longing to see Him and to be near Him.
No crown could ever compare to the privilege of just being with Him.

I'm going to let you in on another secret:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.(James 2:14-17 NIV).

So, faith without works is not faith at all. As we say Down Under. It's not fair dinkum faith. God has created us so that we will have faith that involves good works. Good works demonstrate that faith; good works do not cause that faith to come.

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

You have made some superb observations here. If God has predestined believers through unconditional election, what's the point of evangelism? I guess the response will be: 'That's the way God has done it in his plan of salvation. He has chosen these people absolutely and there is no way that they can ever be lost.'

In fact, my wife used to play piano in a Presbyterian Church where the pastor is a TULIP Calvinist. That church does no outreach evangelism. Why? The pastor told me: 'God will bring them in - the predestined ones'. Many Calvinistic people don't believe like that, but that was this church leader's view.

Oz

Well, if one believes in "predestination", why bother with outreach programs? The pastor in that church makes perfect sense...even if he is an id...um...not correct in his thinking.

Oh, and btw, thank you for the "superb observations" comment. Coming from you, Oz, I take that as very high praise indeed.
And I mean that sincerely...no sarcasm intended.

 

[OzSpen]

But they use that word in the same passage as having no root of salvation. Who is kitten philosopy?


How can a believer depart from God when God's imperishable seed remains in them forever? :huh:

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:


Judas died before Pentecost and the seal of God was not on him yet.

You keep repeating the same old, same old verses without answering what I write. You've committed another red herring fallacy. We cannot have a logical discussion when you do this. When you use logical fallacies, you engage in fallacious reasoning, thus making reasonable conversation impossible.

You claim the seal of God was not on Judas because he died before Pentecost. Was the seal of God on Abraham and David because they died before Pentecost?

 

[Barrd]

I'm going to let you in on another secret:

So, faith without works is not faith at all. As we say Down Under. It's not fair dinkum faith. God has created us so that we will have faith that involves good works. Good works demonstrate that faith; good works do not cause that faith to come.

The amazing thing is that I enthusiastically agree with you. As my Welsh granda would say "tis na fer-true faith, then, me lassie." LOL....I kin awmos 'ear 'im now! "God dinna make ye ta do nuthin' me lass."

Seriously, though, while I realize that faith without works is dead, I am not worried about rewards. Being with Jesus is all the reward I need or desire.

 

[Barrd]

You keep repeating the same old, same old verses without answering what I write. You've committed another red herring fallacy. We cannot have a logical discussion when you do this. When you use logical fallacies, you engage in fallacious reasoning, thus making reasonable conversation impossible.

You claim the seal of God was not on Judas because he died before Pentecost. Was the seal of God on Abraham and David because they died before Pentecost?

That's why I stopped responding to him, Oz. I've spent about a month arguing with him, and made no progress. That's enough time to waste, I think.
After all, I do have another novel "in the works"....

 

[ATP]

You claim the seal of God was not on Judas because he died before Pentecost. Was the seal of God on Abraham and David because they died before Pentecost?

No Oz. God places a seal on those who have received the free gift of salvation by grace through faith AFTER resurrection. The blood of Christ is the seal.

John 6:27 NIV Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

1 Cor 9:2 NIV Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[ATP]

That's why I stopped responding to him, Oz. I've spent about a month arguing with him, and made no progress. That's enough time to waste, I think.

That is sad because all I've been doing is feeding you truth day after day, and still nothing. Makes me wonder Barrd.

 

[Barrd]

That is sad because all I've been doing is feeding you truth day after day, and still nothing. Makes me wonder Barrd.

I told you before, I already have a Teacher, ATP.
I've been learning from Him for nearly 53 years.
His qualifications as a Teacher are far more impressive than yours....I believe I will stay with Him.

Thank you for your efforts, but I honestly do not think we need to continue in what can only be a fruitless debate.

OH, and btw, I think I also told you that I never have worried myself too much about what other people think about me. As me ol grandma tol' me, "Lass" she said, "lass, dinna fash yasel' fer it...a man's opinion tis no better than the man hissel', and thats a fact."

 

[ATP]

I told you before, I already have a Teacher, ATP.
I've been learning from Him for nearly 53 years.
His qualifications as a Teacher are far more impressive than yours....I believe I will stay with Him.

Thank you for your efforts, but I honestly do not think we need to continue in what can only be a fruitless debate.

OH, and btw, I think I also told you that I never have worried myself too much about what other people think about me. As me ol grandma tol' me, "Lass" she said, "lass, dinna fash yasel' fer it...a man's opinion tis no better than the man hissel', and thats a fact."

How can we lose our salvation Barrd when the seed of God remains in us forever.

 

[brakelite]

How can we lose our salvation Barrd when the seed of God remains in us forever.

Wherever that text comes from, can you show from context or the scripture itself that the promise is in actuality unconditional?

 

[brakelite]

The text says the seed is imperishable...but it does not say that its place of residence is unconditionally permanent.
Jesus commanded that we should abide in Him. As branches if we do, we will then grow fruit.
if not, we are cast aside and burned.

 

[Barrd]

How can we lose our salvation Barrd when the seed of God remains in us forever.

I told you, I am not going to debate with you any more about this.
I've shown you again and again why I believe as I do, and how the Bible proves that we can fall. You just keep repeating the same ol' stuff, day after weary day.
Now, be a good boy, and don't make this old grandma put you in my "ignore" list please?
Thank you.