The Doctrine of OSAS

[H. Richard]

By the same token, the New Covenant was not promised to Gentiles, but to Jews:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

And again:

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Kinda gets you right here, doesn't it?

The New Covenant mentioned is the one that Jesus will make with the house of Israel when Jesus sets up His kingdom for the Jews when He returns.

We are not under the Abrahamic covenant nor are we to be under the New Covenant to be made to the Jews. It is an assumption that the Gentiles will be in either one.

The whole world is now under God's grace just as Paul taught it.

When a Jew broke the law of Moses the penalty was stoning to death. How much greater will be the penalty for those that refused to accept Jesus' shed blood as payment for their sins.

Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

When Jesus shed His blood on the cross He fulfilled the Law of Moses covenant requirement that a perfect blood sacrifice was necessary to pay for mankind's sins. His blood paid for the sins of the whole world. To say that it didn't will bring about the condemnation in verse 29 above.

Kinda gets you right here, doesn't it? Ha! Ha!

written by H. Richard

 

[Barrd]

According to Jesus' own words He did not come but to the house of Israel.

Did it ever occur to you that if "He did not come but to the house of Israel", then His death and resurrection have nothing to do with you anyway?

It's fine for Paul...he was a Jew.
But if Jesus were only for the house of Isreael, then Paul shouldn't be bringing Him to Gentiles in the first place...

 

[ATP]

Rev 3:16-17 NIV - The word "vomit" is translated "emeó" which means to show rejection or total disgust. The same basic idea can be found in Leviticus 18:25, 28; 20:22. The meaning of this figure of speech and extended metaphor refers to discipline. The Laodiceans are in for severe discipline just as Israel was promised and received in the OT (Lev 20:22; 2 Chron 36:15-21).

Lev 18:25 NIV Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants.

Lev 18:28 NIV And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

Lev 20:22 NIV "'Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out.

2 Chron 36:21 NIV The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah.

- ATP

 

[ATP]

Butch!

 

[Butch5]

The New Covenant mentioned is the one that Jesus will make with the house of Israel when Jesus sets up His kingdom for the Jews when He returns.

We are not under the Abrahamic covenant nor are we to be under the New Covenant to be made to the Jews. It is an assumption that the Gentiles will be in either one.

The whole world is now under God's grace just as Paul taught it.

When a Jew broke the law of Moses the penalty was stoning to death. How much greater will be the penalty for those that refused to accept Jesus' shed blood as payment for their sins.

Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

When Jesus shed His blood on the cross He fulfilled the Law of Moses covenant requirement that a perfect blood sacrifice was necessary to pay for mankind's sins. His blood paid for the sins of the whole world. To say that it didn't will bring about the condemnation in verse 29 above.

Kinda gets you right here, doesn't it? Ha! Ha!

written by H. Richard

Richard,

The Abrahamic covenant is the Christian's hope. It is of utmost importance to the Christian. Unless you're referring to Mosaic covenant instead.

Also, what payment for sins? The Scriptures say that God will forgive sins, not take payment for them.

 

[Butch5]

Did it ever occur to you that if "He did not come but to the house of Israel", then His death and resurrection have nothing to do with you anyway?

It's fine for Paul...he was a Jew.
But if Jesus were only for the house of Isreael, then Paul shouldn't be bringing Him to Gentiles in the first place...

Jesus did say He had only come to the Jews. However, what dispensationalists seem to overlook is that He charged the disciples to go to the Gentiles and make disciples, teaching and baptizing them.

 

[Butch5]

Rom 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are ""in Christ"" Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life ""in Christ"" Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
(NKJ)

Many read this and say that when a person sins they are living in the flesh and in so doing they are condemned by their sin. Living in the Spirit means that a person is always conscience of the fact the Jesus' shed blood has already paid for their sins of the flesh. They can not be condemned by the actions of the flesh (Romans 7). To live in the flesh is to live thinking that the person is subject to the flesh. There are many that believe what they do in religion (do in the flesh) will save them.

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

We do not wash ourselves, we do not sanctify ourselves, we do not justify ourselves. All these things are done by God when a person believes Jesus' work on the cross has paid for their salvation. In other words, when they believe in Paul's gospel that Jesus gave him.

H. Richard

Is this speculation? You said we don't wash ourselves and posted 1 Cor. 6:11. However, in that passage Paul used the middle form of washed indicating that they did the washing to themselves. So that passage says the opposite of what you claim.

According to Peter it is past sins, not future that are forgiven.

 

[Barrd]

Jesus did say He had only come to the Jews. However, what dispensationalists seem to overlook is that He charged the disciples to go to the Gentiles and make disciples, teaching and baptizing them.

The most famous verse in the Bible tells us that Jesus came to save the world...not just Jews:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I'm not sure how these dispensationalists miss that one.

And the following verse:
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Notice, these are words out of Jesus' own mouth...

 

[Butch5]

You may not see it that way, but I've provided you with passages that demonstrate falling away from salvation and shipwrecking the faith. These are not inferences. They are direct Scriptures and I've dealt with them previously with you. They are:

• Hebrews 6:4-6, and
• 1 Timothy 1:19.

There is another. What was Judas before his betrayal of Jesus?

Judas was first numbered among the Twelve apostles (Lk 6:13, 22:3; Acts 1:16-17). Acts 1:17 is clear about Judas’ role: ‘He was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry’. Therefore, this issue is unquestioned: Judas was ‘chosen’ by Christ Himself, and as the apostle Judas was one of the 12 chosen by Jesus (Lk 6:13; 22:3).
Luke 22:3: ‘Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve’ (ESV). That’s very clear. He was one of the twelve apostles chosen by Jesus.

John 6:70, Jesus asks the rhetorical question to His twelve apostles, ‘Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil?’

Matt. 26:23-24 He answered and said, ’He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born’.

In Luke 12:32 Jesus says to His disciples, “Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.”
This Scripture states that Matthias’ place was ‘to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place’ (Acts 1:25).
Jesus Himself provided the answer in John 17:12, ‘While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled’.

Matthew 27:3-5, ‘Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself’ (KJV).

The words ‘repented himself’ here (from the King James Version) are not the best possible translation of the underlying Greek. The Greek word means ‘regret’ or ‘remorse’ but it does not necessarily imply a change like the word for ‘repentance’ does. The World English Bible translates Matthew 27:3 as, “Then Judas, who betrayed him, when he saw that Jesus was condemned, felt remorse, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders” (WEB).

‘Then they [Judas was there] that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God’ (Matthew 14:33 KJV).

Here we learn that Judas, with the others, was an unbeliever, and then the Lord Jesus adds in John 6:70-71 these words, “Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.”

So, Judas was chosen (he was in the elect) and betrayed Jesus but he was then condemned. John 17:12 confirms what happened to Judas: 'Not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction'. He was elected by Jesus and WAS LOST as the SON OF DESTRUCTION.

Oz

Oz,

I'm with you on this one.

 

[ATP]

Richard,

The Abrahamic covenant is the Christian's hope. It is of utmost importance to the Christian. Unless you're referring to Mosaic covenant instead.

Also, what payment for sins? The Scriptures say that God will forgive sins, not take payment for them.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The day of redemption here means apolutrósis, a release effected by payment of ransom. When we die and meet the Lord at the first resurrection, the Lord will grant us release and deliverance from our sin nature inside a sinful world. We are sealed from God the Father until that time comes.

 

[ATP]

The most famous verse in the Bible tells us that Jesus came to save the world...not just Jews:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I'm not sure how these dispensationalists miss that one.

And the following verse:
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Notice, these are words out of Jesus' own mouth...

Very good Barrd. Jesus died for all sins, past present and future...John 1:29 NIV, Acts 10:43 NIV, Acts 13:38-39 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:3 NIV, 2 Cor 5:14-15 NIV, Gal 1:3-4 NIV, Gal 2:19-20 NIV, Col 1:13-14 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 8:12 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV, 1 John 2:2 NIV, 1 John 2:12 NIV, 1 John 4:10 NIV, 1 John 4:14 NIV, Rev 1:5-6 NIV

 

[ATP]

You said we don't wash ourselves and posted 1 Cor. 6:11. However, in that passage Paul used the middle form of washed indicating that they did the washing to themselves. So that passage says the opposite of what you claim.

According to Peter it is past sins, not future that are forgiven.

We are only justified once Butch...

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

1 Cor 6:11 NIV And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Jesus died for all sins, past present and future...John 1:29 NIV, Acts 10:43 NIV, Acts 13:38-39 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:3 NIV, 2 Cor 5:14-15 NIV, Gal 1:3-4 NIV, Gal 2:19-20 NIV, Col 1:13-14 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 8:12 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV, 1 John 2:2 NIV, 1 John 2:12 NIV, 1 John 4:10 NIV, 1 John 4:14 NIV, Rev 1:5-6 NIV

 

[Butch5]

Which one of these say salvation can be lost?

Here is the NIV translation for the 1 Timothy passage...

As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.

I don't see loss of salvation here...must be an inference you are making...

Then you give me a quote from Origen who was deemed a heretic? Weird...How does this prove the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints has its roots in gnosticism?

You didn't address the entire passage, but like I said, not amount of evidence will do. they. The Greek text NA28 says they rejected their first faith. That is apostasy. Paul goes on to say that they received condemnation and that some were following Satan. Are you seriously going to claim that these are still saved? I wouldn't be surprised as I've had people make that claim in the past. It's absolutely mind boggling that Christians would go to such lengths as to say that people who followed Satan are still saved because they once claimed faith. Paul is clear, they rejected their faith and some followed Satan.


Regarding Origen, who said he was a heretic? If you know what Gnosticism is and what it teaches then you'd know that what I posted from him is Gnostic.

 

[Butch5]

We are only justified once Butch...

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

1 Cor 6:11 NIV And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Jesus died for all sins, past present and future...John 1:29 NIV, Acts 10:43 NIV, Acts 13:38-39 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:3 NIV, 2 Cor 5:14-15 NIV, Gal 1:3-4 NIV, Gal 2:19-20 NIV, Col 1:13-14 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 8:12 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV, 1 John 2:2 NIV, 1 John 2:12 NIV, 1 John 4:10 NIV, 1 John 4:14 NIV, Rev 1:5-6 NIV

Nothing here say one is justified once.

What reason would there be for Jesus to die for someone's future sins?

 

[Butch5]

ATP, You've got to start posting passages that actually say what you're claiming.

 

[ATP]

What reason would there be for Jesus to die for someone's future sins?

The reason is love Butch. Can you say Amen...

Rom 4:7-8 NIV “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Rom 6:10 NIV The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Col 2:13-15 NIV When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Heb 7:23-25 NIV Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Heb 7:27 NIV Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:24-28 NIV For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Heb 10:10-12 NIV And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

1 Pet 3:18 NIV For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

 

[ATP]

Rom 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Butch5]

The reason is love Butch. Can you say Amen...

Rom 4:7-8 NIV “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Rom 6:10 NIV The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Col 2:13-15 NIV When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Heb 7:23-25 NIV Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Heb 7:27 NIV Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:24-28 NIV For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Heb 10:10-12 NIV And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

1 Pet 3:18 NIV For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

That doesn't answer the question. Why would Jesus have to die for one's future sins?

 

[ATP]

That doesn't answer the question. Why would Jesus have to die for one's future sins?

Why? Because as humans it's impossible to be perfect Butch.

 

[ATP]

You didn't address the entire passage, but like I said, not amount of evidence will do. they. The Greek text NA28 says they rejected their first faith.

1 Tim 5:3-16 NIV - The word "salvation" is nowhere to be found here. Why would God allow the younger widows to lose their salvation because they want to marry, and then turn around and say it is actually better if you marry....

1 Cor 7:8-9 NIV Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

1 Tim 5:11 NIV As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.

1 Tim 5:14 NIV So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.

1 Tim 5:9 NIV - Paul has shown what the families should do for their widows. Now he turns to what the church members should do. They may provide for those who have no family to support them. The church at that time used to give a promise of support to those who passed some tests. These they put on an official list. Once they were on the list, the church members would provide for them for the rest of their lives. To qualify for the list the widow must be at least 60 years old. In those days people thought that at that age, she was an old woman. She would not get married again. She must have no family. Or, if she had, they did not support her. That could only be if the family were not Christians. She must have been living with and loyal to her husband while he was alive.

1 Tim 5:11 NIV - Paul does not say that the church should not look after the younger widows. He says that the church should not add them to the list for which there is the promise of continued support. These widows do not qualify for the list because of their age. They are not yet 60 years old. To be on the list carries with it a promise to serve Christ in the church in some way. This means that those on the list are not free to marry. It is quite likely that at some time a young widow will want to marry again. If she were on the list, her marriage would break the promise that she had made to Christ. She would not then be loyal to him because she had promised to give herself to serve him.

1 Tim 5:12 NIV - If a widow is not on the list she can get married. Paul says that it would be a good thing if they did get married (verse 14). But being on the list involves a promise to God. That means that they would not get married. If they do get married, they break that promise. They are guilty of turning away from the *Lord.

- ATP