The Doctrine of OSAS

[ATP]

The text says the seed is imperishable...but it does not say that its place of residence is unconditionally permanent.

"Unconditionally permanent" is the definition of imperishable brake. What is your dictionary say.. <_<

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

Jesus commanded that we should abide in Him. As branches if we do, we will then grow fruit.
if not, we are cast aside and burned.

Were they cast aside and burned because of unbelief? What does "enter that rest" mean here...

Rom 11:20 NIV Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Rom 11:23 NIV And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Heb 3:16-19 NIV Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Heb 4:3 ESV For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[ATP]

Now, be a good boy, and don't make

or girl..maybe?

 

[Barrd]

or girl..maybe?

I asked you once why you kept your gender hidden...
If you won't tell, then I'll just use the generic "he". It doesn't matter one way or the other....boy or girl, I'm not debating this issue with you any more because you do not listen, you just keep repeating the same ol' stuff that I have already refuted, refusing to recognize any verses that might disagree with you, insisting that I must see it your way....you are not interested in a dialogue, and I am not interested in hearing a sermon.
Boy or girl, if you can't get it through your head that, as far as I am concerned, any further debate with you (or your minions) is pointless, then I will certainly ignore you, because I do not intend to lose my temper and say something I will be sorry for.
I hope that's clear enough?

We can talk about other things, if you like....just not this one.

 

[ATP]

I asked you once why you kept your gender hidden...
If you won't tell, then I'll just use the generic "he". It doesn't matter one way or the other....boy or girl, I'm not debating this issue with you any more because you do not listen, you just keep repeating the same ol' stuff that I have already refuted, refusing to recognize any verses that might disagree with you, insisting that I must see it your way....you are not interested in a dialogue, and I am not interested in hearing a sermon.
Boy or girl, if you can't get it through your head that, as far as I am concerned, any further debate with you (or your minions) is pointless, then I will certainly ignore you, because I do not intend to lose my temper and say something I will be sorry for.
I hope that's clear enough?

We can talk about other things, if you like....just not this one.

It doesn't matter to me either. It's the internet if you know what I mean. Shalom.

 

[OzSpen]

Would you care to answer the question I posed in my response?

What comes into question is what Paul means behind the statement translated "leave the faith".

Also you are imposing your belief that person possessed faith that was salvific in nature in order to say they lost their salvation. The evidence that they left the faith proved their faith was not because those who are saved abide in Christ

Yet again as I continually contend, perseverance of the saints does not put up a barrier protecting anyone from going apostate. I have never argued this. Many will post opinions of interpretations while I might present an alternative position.

As I think we all agree, everyone who studies the text for some length of time begins to formulate presuppositions. I continually try to view the text from as many views still fitting within my Orthodox Christian worldview using the same hermeneutics conservative scholars use.

This being said I must bow out for some time. I have spent far too much time involved in this matter when the matter of Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek is more deserving of my time.

Shalom for now!

justaname,

What Paul says 'behind the statement' of 'leave the faith' gets into allegorical interpretation which has devastated sound hermeneutics. Getting behind the statement is an allegorical imposition on the text, in my understanding. Our job is to engage with what the text says with following sound exegetical and hermeneutical principles, i.e. What does the text say in context when the words, grammar and syntax of a sentence are understood? It is detrimental to sound understanding of Scripture to try to get 'behind the text' (whatever that means).

You are making a false claim against me by saying I'm imposing a belief in salvific faith that can be lost. You state, 'The evidence that they left the faith proved their faith was not because those who are saved abide in Christ'. That's your presupposition. That is not what is taught by Heb 6:4-6; 1 Tim 1:19; 1 Tim 4:1-3; 2 Pet 2:20-21, and Judas's apostasy and denial of his election.

Presuppositions can come from any number of sources. Many are not derived from years of study. In fact, if they came from study they are more likely to be conclusions reached than presuppositions. Many presuppositions are related to our upbringing, denominational affiliation, and other influences in our lives. I've just completed a major research project (PhD dissertation) on isolating the presuppositions of John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar and his views on the resurrection of Jesus. Isolating presuppositions and presuppositional triggers is not a simple task, as I found with a 5-year, dissertation-only research project.

All the best with your study of Mounce's basics of biblical Greek. I did mine with John Wenham's Elements of New Testament Greek; Dana & Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, etc. The dissertation has required application of advanced grammar.

Sincerely in Christ,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

According to Jesus' own words He did not come but to the house of Israel.

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
-
Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
-
Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Since Jesus said it I believe it. Jesus did not come to offer the promised Jewish kingdom to the Gentles. People make a profound mistake to teach what was said to the Jews who were under the law of Moses in the grace church. No where do we see Jesus or the 11 teaching that mankind is no longer under the law of Moses but Paul said we are not under the law of Moses. We are under grace.

Perhaps you should pay attention when Paul stated that the world will be judged by his Gospel, the one given to him by Jesus.

Rom 2:16
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV
Rom 16:25
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
NKJV
2 Tim 2:8
8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
NKJV

But it seems that many want to marginalize Paul and his gospel that was given to him by Jesus.

H. Richard
-

H. Richard,

I note that you are new here. Has it occurred to you that when you copy and paste from Scripture or your own documents on other sites that it inhibits communication? I find I do not read your posts when you do this.

I encourage you to quit the copy and paste and engage with us in conversation in your posts.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

I'm with you on this one.

Thanks, mate!

 

[H. Richard]

H. Richard,

I note that you are new here. Has it occurred to you that when you copy and paste from Scripture or your own documents on other sites that it inhibits communication? I find I do not read your posts when you do this.

I encourage you to quit the copy and paste and engage with us in conversation in your posts.

Oz

If I can't post what I believe and see in the scriptures and give those scriptures to back it up just as others here do, then I have to conclude you do not wish to hear what I have to say. So be it.

 

[ATP]

Thanks, mate!

What are your thoughts on the seal of God after resurrection.

 

[ATP]

You can obey all your life, but it doesn't cleanse you of the stain of sin.

Sin cannot enter into heaven.

You will be stained with sin until death, but the blood of Christ covers this stain.

John 3:3, 7.

 

[OzSpen]

No Oz. God places a seal on those who have received the free gift of salvation by grace through faith AFTER resurrection. The blood of Christ is the seal.

John 6:27 NIV Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

1 Cor 9:2 NIV Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Again, you don't answer what I wrote. I stated that you were using a red herring logical fallacy and were engaged in fallacious reasoning. But, no, there is no reply to this content. You are off and running with what you want to talk about.

If you were here in person, I would walk away from our conversation as you will not deal with the issues I post. That's exactly what I'm doing now. You will not engage with the issues I post but keep repeating the same old, same old.

Bye, bye.

 

[OzSpen]

What are your thoughts on the seal of God after resurrection.

That's not the topic of this thread.

 

[OzSpen]

That's why I stopped responding to him, Oz. I've spent about a month arguing with him, and made no progress. That's enough time to waste, I think.
After all, I do have another novel "in the works"....

I hope that others will come to the same conclusion. There is an Ignore button.

 

[ATP]

That's not the topic of this thread.

The topic is OSAS. The seal is not the topic? We are sealed until redemption Oz Eph 4:30 NIV.

 

[ATP]

Religion will not save you.

 

[OzSpen]

Religion will not save you.

You've given another red herring logical fallacy.

What is a red herring logical fallacy?

Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.

Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. Topic A is under discussion.
2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3. Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim (The Nizkor Project).

 

[ATP]

You've given another red herring logical fallacy.

What is a red herring logical fallacy?

..and yet, the word of God remains the same Eph 4:30. Amen.

 

[OzSpen]

The amazing thing is that I enthusiastically agree with you. As my Welsh granda would say "tis na fer-true faith, then, me lassie." LOL....I kin awmos 'ear 'im now! "God dinna make ye ta do nuthin' me lass."

Seriously, though, while I realize that faith without works is dead, I am not worried about rewards. Being with Jesus is all the reward I need or desire.

However, could rewards be related to the Holy Spirit's fruit in our lives?

22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things! (Gal 5:22-23 NLT).

Since faith without works is dead - is not fair dinkum faith at all - then it is necessary in the Christian life to pursue works to demonstrate our real faith. The ESV translates as 'faith apart from works is dead' (James 2;26 ESV). James 2:18 ESV states:

But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

That gives every reason to engage in works (that will result in rewards).

 

[OzSpen]

..and yet, the word of God remains the same Eph 4:30. Amen.

Red herring fallacies remain the same - false reasoning - and they destroy reasonable conversation.

 

[ATP]

The reason is love Butch. Can you say Amen...

Rom 4:7-8 NIV “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Rom 6:10 NIV The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Col 2:13-15 NIV When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Heb 7:23-25 NIV Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Heb 7:27 NIV Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:24-28 NIV For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Heb 10:10-12 NIV And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

1 Pet 3:18 NIV For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

To anyone who would actually like to learn about Jesus, Jesus Christ died for all sins. Let's give glory to Him. Amen.