The Doctrine of OSAS

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Jun2u

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justaname said:
John says He will baptize; referring to the one "mightier than I" which I believe to be Jesus.

Stanj says Jesus never baptized on earth and does not in heaven.

John "Jesus will baptize"
Stanj "Jesus will allow to be baptized"


Hmmmm....

The word baptize in scripture ALWAYS means “wash”. When John referred to Jesus 'He will baptize', he meant Jesus is the only one who can wash away sins, as evident in Ti 3:4-5:

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Stanj is correct. Jesus never baptized anyone, that is with water.

The passage in reference escapes me at the moment. Perhaps someone reading this post can give the reference.

Hope this helps.

To God Be The Glory
 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
 

StanJ

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The Barrd said:
Not that I know of, unless you count his (that is, John the Baptist's) baptism, which was temporary.
We still have two baptisms today...water and the Holy Spirit, but the problem is water has become the defacto, when it should be the Holy Spirit.
 

Jun2u

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Wormwood said:
FHII and justaname,

I must say that I agree with Baard and StanJ on this one. First, your argument is (as I understand them...perhaps I am wrong on your assessments) that the "if" statements in these passages do indeed warn us about the importance of holding fast to the Gospel, but those who do not hold fast to the Gospel were never saved in the first place. I find this argument to be difficult to swallow. Why would the author give such a warning if the person predetermined for hell couldn't help it if they did not hold to the Gospel because they were really never "elect" in the first place? This renders all these passages and warnings completely meaningless.

Second, this doctrine clearly flies in the face of one of the most basic tenants of the Bible: God loves the world and desires "anyone" who will to come and find life. In fact, the NT contrasts "faith" with "works." Allowing people to determine their own fate through their faith is not "earning" anything nor is it stripping glory from God. The gift of salvation is entirely a gift and unearned. Accepting a gift is not earning a gift. This is a huge flaw in Calvinistic logic.
Firstly, you'll NOT find language anywhere in the Bible that God predertermines people to hell, that is your belief. You have already admitted in another post that people go to hell because of their sins! Secondly, God does NOT love the world (Jo 3:16 is another study) as people think and God does NOT desire that "anyone" who will come and find life for this is contrary to Ro 3:10-11. But I will speak about "works" as opposed to "faith" that God may open your spiritual eyes.


We read in Ephesians 2:8-10:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Going back to verse 8 we ask, what is not of ourselves and what is the gift of God? Is it grace or is it faith? Is God talking here in Ephesian 2:8 that faith is not of yourselves but the gift of God? I believe this is what God is actually teaching here.

It is by grace that someone is brought into the kingdom of God and becomes the inheritor of the gift of salvation. It is by grace and through faith that the gift of grace manifests itself. So if we compare this with the gifts of the Spirit in Ga 5:22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith…etc.

Faith is one of the gifts of the Spirit and the gift of the Spirit is only going to be manifested by whom the gift exist, and by whom the Spirit of God is going to indwell, because these are the manifested gifts of God. Hence they are called the gifts of God.

What does it mean the fruit of the Spirit? The Spirit manifests itself by its existence, by its presence, by the fruit that it brings. The Spirit of God when He goes and dwells within a person and He enters them, He brings with Him the manifested gifts, His fruit, and this individual will begin to manifest these fruits, and one of these fruits is faith.

Ro 10:17 reads: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. This is a fundamental principle, no one can become save unless he hears the Gospel. The word of God does not return void!

You see, we do not naturally possess faith. Humanly speaking, we all have faith, but the faith that God talks about in scripture the faith to believe in Jesus Christ is NOT something that occurs naturally. It comes as a gift or the manifested gift of the Spirit.

And, when the Spirit enters a human being (which is a sinner), and brings with Him His gifts and begins to manifest them that faith grows. So as a child of God grows in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ as he reads the word of God, which really is the manifestation of Jesus Christ, it is the living word, sharper than any two edged sword, this faith and their knowledge of scripture as God the Spirit opens our eyes to greater truths of scripture, our faith grows the faith OF Jesus Christ.

When Jesus laid down His life as the sacrificial Lamb, it required Him to trust that if He allowed Himself to be put to death that His Father will raise Him. Again this took faith the faith that Jesus alone possesses. Well, God The Father, and God the Holy Spirit possess this faith also, and that's a great mystery which I cannot unravel. I have no idea how all this interrelates but I do know that based on Ga 2:16 it is the faith OF Jesus Christ that impelled Him to trust His Father and to put His life into His Father's hand trusting that He would raise Him again from the dead. That is a great mystery, but it is true, for the wages of sin is death, and to atone for sins as the atonement and propitiation for sin, He had to die. He had to die the death as required for payment of sin. He had to allow Himself to be put to death, He submitted Himself, sacrificed Himself, and He trusted that He would come out on the other side and be resurrected, and not only will He be resurrected but He carried with Him captivity captive and we were resurrected with Him when Jesus was resurrected.
As we study scripture and as we begin to understand it we can only do so with the presence of the Holy Spirit within us. We must also have been given a new heart and we must be given the mind of Jesus Christ. So that we can begin to think God's thoughts. As we do this, it will be manifesting that the Holy Spirit is working within us.

So then to believe in Jesus Christ is a gift that comes with the Spirit. It is NOT something that occurs in us naturally.

Many people want to believe that the way to salvation is by exercising our faith, the natural faith that we are born with or that God may give us at some point, but then they believe you have to exercise that faith in order to become saved, and then if we compare that to what God has warned or what God have said about mankind in Ro 3:10-11

If your doctrinal belief is that you must seek God with all your heart and then you'll find Him apart from God drawing you, YOU ARE BELIEVING IN WORKS! You are believing that it is by your work, by your seeking God that makes you save, and that's not it at all. We have to compare scripture with scripture and spiritual things with spiritual.

Jesus said: No man can come to me...etc., who is seeking who?

I believe Ephesians 2:8-9 can only be understood as explained above.

To God Be The Glory
 

StanJ

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Jun2u said:
Firstly, you'll NOT find language anywhere in the Bible that God predertermines people to hell, that is your belief. You have already admitted in another post that people go to hell because of their sins!
NOT the topic of this thread, so please take those thoughts to the appropriate thread in the Unorthodox Forum.
 

justaname

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StanJ said:
You're getting there. Don't worry, agreeing with me only serves to make things clearer, so you won't be hmming very long.
In other words if we all agreed with you we could all be wrong...clear enough.
 

justaname

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Wormwood,

How does the natural man overcome his pride and why would he?

What makes the natural man no longer think the cross is foolish?

Also your statement of "as a proof text for OSAS" is placing language on my position I never used. Just as stating certain texts were not intended as proof texts for the doctrine of the Trinity, this statement is attacking where inferences are being made.

I will respond in greater detail later concerning the passage...


God bless!
 

Jun2u

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StanJ said:
NOT the topic of this thread, so please take those thoughts to the appropriate thread in the Unorthodox Forum.

You have addressed your comment to the wrong person. I merely responded to statements made that were scripturally incorrect that I've challenged.

In the few discussions of different issues I've had with you, you portrayed yourself as being the superior yet, not really saying anything because you are not spiritual. You read and critique the Bible like it is an ordinary book instead of a historical and spiritual book.

You are nothing but an arrogant man as evident in your post #1860 and addressed to Justaname and I quote: “You're getting there. Don't worry, agreeing with me only serves to make things clearer, so you won't be hmming very long.

What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

To God Be The Glory
 

StanJ

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Jun2u said:
You have addressed your comment to the wrong person. I merely responded to statements made that were scripturally incorrect that I've challenged.

In the few discussions of different issues I've had with you, you portrayed yourself as being the superior yet, not really saying anything because you are not spiritual. You read and critique the Bible like it is an ordinary book instead of a historical and spiritual book.

What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
Regardless, this is NOT the topic here, and I don't read EVERY post on the thread.

You mean you perceived that, which is what usually happens to people who speak out of their weight class. Just like with my children, sometimes I have a scolding voice, but IN FACT, I do have superior knowledge to you in regards to Biblical hermeneutics.

Another clear example of using scripture OUT of context.

You do realize your closing conveys pious self righteousness don't you?
 

Wormwood

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Justaname,


Also your statement of "as a proof text for OSAS" is placing language on my position I never used. Just as stating certain texts were not intended as proof texts for the doctrine of the Trinity, this statement is attacking where inferences are being made.
I apologize if my comment came across as if you were misrepresenting the Bible. I did not mean it that way. I was simply trying to explain why I do not agree with your interpretation as you presented it. I do think there are "proof-texts" that reveal the doctrine of the Trinity, for example...or else I wouldnt believe the doctrine. Now, we can debate whether or not Paul or others were trying to communicate the Trinity in the same manner we do today in any given text, yet, I think it is safe to say that if we are going to reference a text as rationale for a particular doctrine, then we must be able to show how our ideas coincide with those of the author. For instance, when Jesus says we should baptize in the "name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" he is saying that the Christian is to be identified by this these persons that fall under one "name." I mean, certainly Jesus meant something there and there is a reason he cites Father, Son and Spirit as the name by which one is baptized. For me, I think a safe assumption is that Jesus and Matthew did understand this to indicate a certain nature and working of God that is best explained by what we know as the Trinity. That being said, you stated:


This one verse argues against most of your post regarding coming to faith...
So, it seemed to me that you felt this statement by Paul showed that Paul certainly couldnt believe that a person could come to faith without first being awakened by the Holy Spirit. This text was your proof that Paul could not agree with my views on free will as it relates to human depravity and responding to the Gospel. It seemed to me that your argument was that this text proves a person has to be made "spiritual" by the preemptive quickening of the Holy Spirit which thereby gives that individual the Holy Spirit and the mind of Christ. At least, if we read the passage as you indicated that the first person pronouns are, in fact, referring to all Christians, I dont know how else one could interpret that passage based on those assumptions. Moreover, that is the claim most theologians make in their appeal to this passage as proof of predetermined election. I wasnt trying to misrepresent you, and I apologize if I did. I was simply trying to take your comments and show that I disagreed that this was a passage that is a proof-text for such views on election. I just dont think that is what Paul is teaching at all when we look at the overall context. Paul is not contrasting all Christians with the world, suggesting they have been given special insight and the mind of Christ and the world cannot understand Christ apart from preventing grace or election. Rather, I think Paul is contrasting the Apostles and their revelatory message with the wisdom of the world. He is showing that we come to know and grow in that message through humility...which is precisely where these Corinthian Christians were stumbling.

As for your questions:

How does the natural man overcome his pride and why would he?
What makes the natural man no longer think the cross is foolish?
God uses circumstances, pain, suffering, the law, and primarily the love and grace displayed in the Gospel to break down a person's pride (in Revelation, God uses intense suffering and "Wormwood" to make the waters bitter so people would repent...but they do not). When we look at those who followed Jesus, it wasnt because they had special preventing grace that made them want to follow him. Rather, they recognized they were sinful, needy, and helpless because of their sin. They wanted to change when they heard the life-giving words and hope Jesus offered. They had nothing to lose. What is important to understand is the desire to change is not holiness. Paul says, “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.” (Romans 7:14–18, ESV)

Notice that last sentence. Paul had the desire to do what was right because he recognized the law was good. Even as a "natural man" under the law, Paul was able to see that the Law was good. The problem was, the law could not make him good. Rather, the law condemned him as evil because "nothing good dwelled in him." So, the ability to recognize what is good does not make a person good, at least according to Paul. Instead, he concludes, "For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?” (Romans 7:22–24, ESV)

So, Paul did not know what was good, until the Law came and God revealed what goodness looked like. Paul learned the law and "died" because the law revealed the wickedness within him. Everything in his body rebelled against the law of God. Paul wanted to do good, but nothing good was in Paul so the law only served to kill him because he was evil. The Law led Paul to Christ because he realized that he needed to be delivered from himself. Only Jesus could do that. This is how Paul describes being "dead in sin" and being "a slave." We just simply do not see anything in the Bible that teaches that a sinner cannot recognize what is good (God's nature and power is evident...the problem is they suppress what they know to be right and true...which is why they are judged) and cannot repent and respond to the Gospel when it is presented.

To be more concise, "The natural man can turn from his pride when confonted by the light of God's law and Gospel that reveals his wickedness and his helpless condition. Most reject the Gospel because refuse to believe they are helpless. However, some believe what God says and recognize their depravity and cry out for help. This recognition does not indicate any inherent goodness, but only an acceptance of what God says is true."

As for the second question, I dont think Paul is implying what you are thinking when he says, "natural man." The word for natural, "ψυχικός" is reflecting on non-spiritual and fallen instincts of man. This word is used to describe the "sensual" in passages like James 3:15 and Jude 1:19. The cross is foolish to those who are perishing. Those who endulge in their evil and prideful behavior are destined to perish because the cross will not appeal to them as God has designed it. Moroever, it says God chose the "foolish" to shame the wise and the "weak" to shame the strong and the "low and despised" to undo the high and honored. So, I dont think that Paul is saying, "You would have never accepted the Gospel if God had not zapped you first or predetermined your salvation." Rather, Paul is saying, "God, in His wisdom, chose to save the world through a message that would connect with the weak, poor, low, dispised and foolish so that the world in all its pride would be blinded in their own sensuality and sin. He goes on to basically rebuke the Corinthians that they were starting to act like the world in their divisions and love for wisdom, because that stuff comes from the world and is the antithesis of the Gospel and the ways of God. These Corinthians were behaving as "natural" and "carnal" people which is why they were misunderstanding the Gospel and how they should live as a result.
 
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justaname

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Wormwood,

I appreciate your consideration of upright argumentation and your careful examinations of the Scriptures. Again even with these passages I believe we are nearer in agreement than disagreement. I do understand the usage of the personal pronouns within the context. Yet I do not see Paul's "we" as applying to himself and the other apostles. Paul is referring to himself and the believing Corinthians because he uses language that is common in the Christian experience not only to Apostolic commission. In specific, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,"

This bolded portion is rather direct in it's language referring back to the verb "received." Part of the reason for the Spirit is to know the things given by God.

From this Paul goes on to say, "which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

This underlined bit can also be translated, "interpreting (or expounding) spiritual things for spiritual people." This I believe is the better translation because it introduces less inferences as to spiritual (what).

Here then is when our text comes into it's direct context. Moving back to verse 11 we know Paul is contrasting the unspiritual with the spiritual. This can also be viewed as the unregenerate being contrasted with the regenerate. Paul is clearly making the case the Spirit is needed to know the thoughts of God. Thus the spiritual man is the one with the Spirit. The unspiritual or natural man is devoid of the Spirit. Paul then moves to our text in question...The unspiritual man cannot accept or understand the things of the Spirit of God.

The language is rather clear.
 

Jun2u

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StanJ said:
Regardless, this is NOT the topic here, and I don't read EVERY post on the thread.

You mean you perceived that, which is what usually happens to people who speak out of their weight class. Just like with my children, sometimes I have a scolding voice, but IN FACT, I do have superior knowledge to you in regards to Biblical hermeneutics.

Another clear example of using scripture OUT of context.

You do realize your closing conveys pious self righteousness don't you?

I just want to say that you should practice what you preach!

Tell me, do you think post #1859 above is appropriate topic for this thread?

I beg to differ, how can you say you are superior in knowledge regarding Biblical hermeneutics, you don't even know that Paradise is synonymous with Heaven? You see it takes a spiritual man to understand this. In fact, there are three levels that are utilized in hermeneutics. Do you even know them?

Oh well, enough already. You may be superior academically in the English language, but never in the things of God.

To God Be The Glory
 

StanJ

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Jun2u said:
I beg to differ, how can you say you are superior in knowledge regarding Biblical hermeneutics, you don't even know that Paradise is synonymous with Heaven? You see it takes a spiritual man to understand this. In fact, there are three levels that are utilized in hermeneutics. Do you even know them?
So Jesus tells you no man has seen God or has been to heaven and you believe that Paradise, which is full of men/women, is where God is in heaven? Yep, you sure know hermeneutics alright. :wacko:
 

Wormwood

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justaname said:
Wormwood,

I appreciate your consideration of upright argumentation and your careful examinations of the Scriptures. Again even with these passages I believe we are nearer in agreement than disagreement. I do understand the usage of the personal pronouns within the context. Yet I do not see Paul's "we" as applying to himself and the other apostles. Paul is referring to himself and the believing Corinthians because he uses language that is common in the Christian experience not only to Apostolic commission. In specific, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,"

This bolded portion is rather direct in it's language referring back to the verb "received." Part of the reason for the Spirit is to know the things given by God.

From this Paul goes on to say, "which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

This underlined bit can also be translated, "interpreting (or expounding) spiritual things for spiritual people." This I believe is the better translation because it introduces less inferences as to spiritual (what).

Here then is when our text comes into it's direct context. Moving back to verse 11 we know Paul is contrasting the unspiritual with the spiritual. This can also be viewed as the unregenerate being contrasted with the regenerate. Paul is clearly making the case the Spirit is needed to know the thoughts of God. Thus the spiritual man is the one with the Spirit. The unspiritual or natural man is devoid of the Spirit. Paul then moves to our text in question...The unspiritual man cannot accept or understand the things of the Spirit of God.

The language is rather clear.
justaname,

Thank you for your response. I enjoy having a kind and thoughtful discussion with you. I wish more on here displayed this same kind of spirit.

It is likely we will have to agree to disagree on this passage. But allow me to provide a little more explanation about why I feel Paul is speaking about the Apostles here. I will quote the entire section and context without the chapters. I think sometimes the chapters and verses have a way of suggesting a new thought or topic when, in the Greek, that is just not the case. As you know, the chapters and verses were not part of the original letters.

“And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.” (1 Corinthians 2:1–3:9, ESV)
Throughout this section, the first person pronouns (I, we, us) are all in reference to the heralds of the Gospel. In contrast, the second person pronouns, (you) are referring to the Corinthians. I just do not see any way the "we" can refer to the Corinthian christians. Paul says, "But I brothers, could not address you as spiritual people..." Obviously these Corinthians do not have "the mind of Christ" as their minds are carnal. Moreover, Paul goes on to elaborate on the "we" concept when he says, "What is Apollos? What is Paul?" Finally he says, "We are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building." So, I think it is clear that the "we" here refers to people like Paul, Apollos and the other teachers that have shared the Gospel with the Corinthians. This message was brought by the Spirit, not the world and those who teach this message do so according to the Spirit of God and the mind of Christ. Paul is not saying all Christians are spiritual, because he says right after this that the Corinthians were not spiritual, but carnal and worldly. The point here is that the Corinthians should not divide over which spiritual teacher they think is most wise and boast about which one of them baptized them. Paul says all these fellow workers are all serving God and are doing it with the mind and Spirit of Christ. Also, I think what Paul is referring to with what was "recieved" is the revelation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Anyway, I have to run. Busy day ahead.
 

Jun2u

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Wormwood said:
Thank you for your response. I enjoy having a kind and thoughtful discussion with you. I wish more on here displayed this same kind of spirit.

You are correct, this is not how a child of God behaves!

With this conviction, I would like to apologize to Stanj, and to the moderators.

However, I feel ignored and left out on the discussions especially when my response is directed to a particular person.

At times my comments and statements may seem hostile maybe it's because I do not have a good command of the English language like everyone here, yet I know this is not an excuse.

Could you give me your comments on post #1867 above and please ignore language you deem inappropriate?

Thank you.

To God Be The Glory
 
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Barrd

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StanJ said:
We still have two baptisms today...water and the Holy Spirit, but the problem is water has become the defacto, when it should be the Holy Spirit.
Baptism today includes the Holy Spirit. Every single person who is baptized receives the Holy Spirit, without exception.
I do not believe in a separate "baptism of the Holy Spirit".
But then, I do not believe in the "charismatic movement", either.
We agree on many things, my friend....and I am your friend, Stan....but I'm afraid this is one of those things we do not agree on.
 

Barrd

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Jun2u said:
You are correct, this is not how a child of God behaves!

With this conviction, I would like to apologize to Stanj, and to the moderators.

However, I feel ignored and left out on the discussions especially when my response is directed to a particular person.

At times my comments and statements may seem hostile maybe it's because I do not have a good command of the English language like everyone here, yet I know this is not an excuse.

Could you give me your comments on post #1867 above and please ignore language you deem inappropriate?

Thank you.

To God Be The Glory
I admire this post.
You show yourself to be a true Christian, Jun2u.