The Doctrine of OSAS

[BornAgain]

Retro:

(I haven't figured out how to quote yet), but can you explain justified by God and please use scripture. I was addressing OSAS as the original poster was speaking. How can one be justified by God? Are you saying He does the work for us?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Shalom, Ernest T. Bass.


You keep using these verses; let's look at them:

1 Tim. 5:12 is found within this context:



1 Timothy 5:3-15
3 Honour widows that are widows indeed.
4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them (the children) learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel (an unbeliever).
9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore (60) years old, having been the wife of one man,
10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when "they have begun to wax wanton against Christ," they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
KJV


Now, let's look at the context of Hebrews 3:12:

Hebrews 3:1-19
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
KJV

To whom is the author of Hebrews talking? He is talking to the HEBREWS scattered among the nations. The word "Hebrew" refers to a "child of Isra'el WANDERER." So, when He uses the word "brethren" or "brothers" he may not necessarily be talking to believers; he may just be talking to fellow-Hebrews as LITERAL brothers (or at least cousins) within Isra'el. Looking at Hebrews 3:1, the verse gives the impression that He is talking to believers AMONG the general Diaspora, the Hebrews scattered among the nations. When he addresses his "HOLY brethren," then he is talking primarily to the believers among His brethren.

I used those two verses to demonstrate one can believe/have faith yet quit believing/cast off their faith.

1 Tim 5:12 "Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith"

It is possible one can cast off faith.

Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."


The Hebrew writer was addressing Jews who had become Christians, Heb 3:14 and warns them about falling away by leaving Christianity and returning back to Judaism.

Also, it cannot be argued that those in the two verses were 'never really saved' or 'never really believed'. How could they cast off faith if they never had faith to begin with? Those in Heb 3 had to be with God in belief in order for them to depart from God in unbelief.


So my point still stands in that people choose to believe/have faith by choice and can quit believing/cast off faith by choice.

 

[Forsakenone]

Yet a believer can become an unbeliever.

Without a doubt, if one is in the faith.

 

[williemac]

It is one thing to nail down a concept. Can a person walk away from faith? Apparently so. But it is quite another thing to nail down the reasons that this happens, so that we can be guarded for our own sake and be watchful for the sake of others.

I think that while we argue back and forth about osas, we are often forgetting to look at the more important parts of this subject.

For example, some will insist that to avoid losing salvation we must obey commands. This message is pasted all over the place on this website.
So we get it settled somewhat that this is the equivalent to forsaking faith when it comes to salvation, as it replaces it with works for salvation. But then, not everyone sees this or agrees with that.

Then others will insist that sin can cause one to lose salvation, as in their minds it somehow equals falling from either faith or grace. But when it comes to the question of how much sin or what kind of sin can cause this, there is no universally agreed standard to measure ourselves against.

My point is that for some people, it is only the first step in their agenda to prove that salvation can be lost. This opens the door for all kinds of hoops and hurdles that are presented for us to overcome in order to keep our salvation.

The subject itself opens the door obviously for discussing just what we need to do (or not) in order to maintain our everlasting life.

And then of course, we come across the guarantee and assurance we are supposed to have. For some, this is apparently fleeting, or at least conditional to our own performance.

In the end, this debate is a real dog's breakfast of ideas, doctrines, and suggestions. And for what it's worth, my opinion is that this discussion itself can be a hindrance to faith for those who are not on sound foundational understanding of the way to everlasting life.

In that light, I will simply respond by repeating my own understanding about it all. Faith is not the 'reason' we are saved. It is rather the 'method' by which we access God's grace. The reason that we access His grace is none other than ..."humility". God gives grace to the humble, and resists the proud.

So I will suggest that the most effective way to walk away from the faith and in doing so, fall from grace, is to walk away from humility. For those who want to know what this looks like, just try to justify yourself for everlasting life by what you do or don't do.

O, and BTW, while we debate osas, I just want to point out that the bible says we are SAVED ONCE. Life is a one time gift that can not or will not be repeated. Read all about it in Heb.6:1-6. So is life easy to lose, once gained? I seriously doubt it. I would say that if Jesus has anything to say about it, it will be near impossible.

grace and peace to all

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

For the Christian to be saved he must overcome and keep (obey) Christ's works and be faithful unto death, Rev 2:10,26. Those that fail to overcome and become unfaithful can in no way be saved.

 

[justaname]

For the Christian to be saved he must overcome and keep (obey) Christ's works and be faithful unto death, Rev 2:10,26. Those that fail to overcome and become unfaithful can in no way be saved.

And I will add they never were going to be saved in any perspective of an omniscient God transcendent of time.

These you speak of never were "saved" to begin with, perhaps they had a form of faith. Yet it is obvious their faith was never salvific in nature. Those who have a saving faith endure and obey, and are never in danger of losing their salvation.

Romans 10:11
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Perhaps you choose to try to prove this verse as being incorrect? I choose to believe scripture.
Shalom

 

[FHII]

Yep.... A concept that folks who hate OSAS tend to ignore.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And I will add they never were going to be saved in any perspective of an omniscient God transcendent of time.

These you speak of never were "saved" to begin with, perhaps they had a form of faith. Yet it is obvious their faith was never salvific in nature. Those who have a saving faith endure and obey, and are never in danger of losing their salvation.

Romans 10:11
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Perhaps you choose to try to prove this verse as being incorrect? I choose to believe scripture.
Shalom

The verb 'believes' is present tense, a tense proponents of eternal security 'tend to ignore' or dismiss oftentimes. With the present tense Rom 10:11 can be translated "Whoever continues on believing shall not be ashamed". So believing cannot be done just once or sporadically but must be an ongoing, sustained, continuous, day to day life-long commitment for if one quits believing he can become ashamed. Therefore being ashamed is conditional upon a sustained, ongoing belief. So I believe this verse, do you?

[Those spoken of in Rev 2 was the church/Christians and the context shows they can become lost.]

 

[justaname]

I do say salvation is not irrespective of faith...in other words those who are saved do continue in the faith...again loss of salvation is a fallacy, because God is omniscient (all knowing) and transcendent...those who are saved are the only ones saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I do say salvation is not irrespective of faith...in other words those who are saved do continue in the faith...again loss of salvation is a fallacy, because God is omniscient (all knowing) and transcendent...those who are saved are the only ones saved.

People choose to have faith by choice and can choose to turn from faith by choice, 1 Tim 4:1; 1 Tim 5:12; 1 Tim 6:10; Heb 3:12

 

[williemac]

The verb 'believes' is present tense, a tense proponents of eternal security 'tend to ignore' or dismiss oftentimes. With the present tense Rom 10:11 can be translated "Whoever continues on believing shall not be ashamed". So believing cannot be done just once or sporadically but must be an ongoing, sustained, continuous, day to day life-long commitment for if one quits believing he can become ashamed. Therefore being ashamed is conditional upon a sustained, ongoing belief. So I believe this verse, do you?

[Those spoken of in Rev 2 was the church/Christians and the context shows they can become lost.]

Someone needs to expalin to you and convince you to consider the actual purpose for faith. I'll give it a try. It is not just intellectual consent. It has a role, which is that faith is the means and method by which we FREELY receive something from God.

Everlasting life is not just a mere concept. It is part and parcel of that which is called "the new man", which we receive upon being born again. This is the beginning of our being made a new creation. The finishing touch will be our new body to go along with the new spirit, at the resurrection (1Cor.15:52).

By faith, we receive the new birth. By faith we receive the indwelling presence of God in the Holy Spirit. These do not just go away. We do not need to sustain our belief in order to keep them around. What we need to do is recognize and rebuke the doctrines, messages, and ideas that oppose salvation by grace through faith, that would pull us off the foundation. This is not so much a sustaining of faith as it is a putting on of the armour of God. This is done through our understanding of truth. People who are double minded are they who are unstable. One needs to know and fully understand why he has the hope that lies within him. This is not an effort to believe. This is about hearing the word and understanding it. Faith comes by this kind of hearing. It doesn't go away in the case of those who are on a solid foundation of the truth of the gospel.

As far as security goes, this is a necessary motivator for us. How can we love others without being secure in God's love? How can we maintain a life of joy and peace without the assurance of our inheritance? How is it that the Holy Spirit is given as a guaruntee of our inheritance, if security is not God's intention for us? Who does any man think he is by telling God not to grant assurance and security?

But what about this passage? ." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt. But to him who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness". (Rom.4:4,5). You (anyone) think you need to get God to owe you a debt? Where are you (anyone) getting this idea? Do you have the correct understanding? This I rhetorically ask and wonder.

 

[justaname]

People choose to have faith by choice and can choose to turn from faith by choice, 1 Tim 4:1; 1 Tim 5:12; 1 Tim 6:10; Heb 3:12

And these were never going to be saved...ever. The evidence is in the prophesy of them not having a genuine faith to begin with. If the faith is genuine it leads to salvation.

And to be more accurate also, God chose us, we did not chose Him. My faith is based on God's eternal sustaining power, not myself.

None can come to Me unless My Father draws them...

For He chose us in Him before the foundations of the world

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Someone needs to expalin to you and convince you to consider the actual purpose for faith. I'll give it a try. It is not just intellectual consent. It has a role, which is that faith is the means and method by which we FREELY receive something from God.

Everlasting life is not just a mere concept. It is part and parcel of that which is called "the new man", which we receive upon being born again. This is the beginning of our being made a new creation. The finishing touch will be our new body to go along with the new spirit, at the resurrection (1Cor.15:52).

By faith, we receive the new birth. By faith we receive the indwelling presence of God in the Holy Spirit. These do not just go away. We do not need to sustain our belief in order to keep them around. What we need to do is recognize and rebuke the doctrines, messages, and ideas that oppose salvation by grace through faith, that would pull us off the foundation. This is not so much a sustaining of faith as it is a putting on of the armour of God. This is done through our understanding of truth. People who are double minded are they who are unstable. One needs to know and fully understand why he has the hope that lies within him. This is not an effort to believe. This is about hearing the word and understanding it. Faith comes by this kind of hearing. It doesn't go away in the case of those who are on a solid foundation of the truth of the gospel.

As far as security goes, this is a necessary motivator for us. How can we love others without being secure in God's love? How can we maintain a life of joy and peace without the assurance of our inheritance? How is it that the Holy Spirit is given as a guaruntee of our inheritance, if security is not God's intention for us? Who does any man think he is by telling God not to grant assurance and security?

But what about this passage? ." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt. But to him who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness". (Rom.4:4,5). You (anyone) think you need to get God to owe you a debt? Where are you (anyone) getting this idea? Do you have the correct understanding? This I rhetorically ask and wonder.

It was claimed Rom 10:11 "proves" eternal security but upon examiniation it does not for no verse teaches this man-made doctrine.

Yet you post (my emp) " By faith, we receive the new birth. By faith we receive the indwelling presence of God in the Holy Spirit. These do not just go away. We do not need to sustain our belief in order to keep them around."


Absolutely incredible. This is just as bad as Charles Stanley saying a Christian can lose his faith completely and be still be saved. That one can be saved in unbelief is as false and unbiblical as it can get. Jn 3:18 unbelief is a condemned state and no exception is made. Mk 16:16 - "He that believeth not is condemned" - no exception is made. You are trying to rewrite the bible to force your theology into it. I am sitting here in amazement people belief this stuff. Novice bible students, children in Sunday school classes know better than this. If one does not have to maintain his belief then why don't you just argue that one can be saved without grace?? Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." If one loses his faith he no longer has access to grace. Absolutely incredible....and the irony is you saying someone needs to explain things to me.


I am curious. On other forums I have participated on, proponents of eternal secuity do not go so far as to say one can lose his faith yet still be saved. I am curious as to how many proponents of eternal security on this forum will say a Christain does not have to maintain his belief yet still be saved?



Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Paul is contrasting works of merit that do not save in v4 to an obedient faith that does save in v5.

The "worker" in v4 is one who works to keep God's law perfectly whereby he merits salvation. For if one could keep God's law perfectly then his salvation would not be reckoned of grace but of debt.

So verse 5 is saying "but to him that does not work to merit salvation but believeth...his faith is counted for righteousness." "But" is a contrasting word contrasting the meritorious worker from the one with obedient faith. So "worketh not" does not exclude all works for it does not exclude a faithful obedience to God's will, it is excluding works of merit of verse 4. Futhermore, it is a biblcal fact in Jn 6:27-29 among many other verses that a saving belief is a work, it is obedience (Jn 3:36 American Standard Version) for belief must include obedient works else it is dead.

Therefore in v5 "worketh not" would not include an obedience to God's throug belief will for Paul would not contradict himself by first excluding all works then include the work of believing. In the context Paul uses Abraham's faith which was an an obeient faith, Heb 11:8,17 James 2:21-24

A point I brought up in a thrad I started - Making Demands on the Gift Giver - where free gifts can and do come with conditions and working to meet those conditions do not, cannot earn the free gift already offered. A fact faith only proponents refuse to understand or acknowledge.

And these were never going to be saved...ever. The evidence is in the prophesy of them not having a genuine faith to begin with. If the faith is genuine it leads to salvation.

And to be more accurate also, God chose us, we did not chose Him. My faith is based on God's eternal sustaining power, not myself.

None can come to Me unless My Father draws them...

For He chose us in Him before the foundations of the world

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

If they had not chosen to depart from/cast off the faith they would have been saved.....had CONTINUED in belief, Rom 10:11, they would not be ashamed.

The "they were not really saved to begin with" is nothing more than an excuse proponents of fatih only use to get around their problems the bible provides them.

1 Tim 4:1 "...some shall depart from the faith..." How can they "depart from the faith" if they never really had the faith to begin with, if they were always really faithless?

1 Tim 5:12 "...they have cast off their first faith." Again, how can they cast off something they never really had?

So the facts show us they were in a saved position until they departed from/cast off the faith.

Luke tells us Judas by transgresion fell, Acts 1:25. If Judas was "never really saved to begin with" then how can he fall by transgression if he was always fallen? What does a lost, always fallen person fall from? For him to fall by transgression means he must have been in a position where he was saved in order to fall by transgression. Acts 8 Simon was in a saved psotion yet later found himself in a present tense state of "perishing".

 

[justaname]

It was claimed Rom 10:11 "proves" eternal security but upon examiniation it does not for no verse teaches this man-made doctrine.

Yet you post (my emp) " By faith, we receive the new birth. By faith we receive the indwelling presence of God in the Holy Spirit. These do not just go away. We do not need to sustain our belief in order to keep them around."


Absolutely incredible. This is just as bad as Charles Stanley saying a Christian can lose his faith completely and be still be saved. That one can be saved in unbelief is as false and unbiblical as it can get. Jn 3:18 unbelief is a condemned state and no exception is made. Mk 16:16 - "He that believeth not is condemned" - no exception is made. You are trying to rewrite the bible to force your theology into it. I am sitting here in amazement people belief this stuff. Novice bible students, children in Sunday school classes know better than this. If one does not have to maintain his belief then why don't you just argue that one can be saved without grace?? Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." If one loses his faith he no longer has access to grace. Absolutely incredible....and the irony is you saying someone needs to explain things to me.


I am curious. On other forums I have participated on, proponents of eternal secuity do not go so far as to say one can lose his faith yet still be saved. I am curious as to how many proponents of eternal security on this forum will say a Christain does not have to maintain his belief yet still be saved?



Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Paul is contrasting works of merit that do not save in v4 to an obedient faith that does save in v5.

The "worker" in v4 is one who works to keep God's law perfectly whereby he merits salvation. For if one could keep God's law perfectly then his salvation would not be reckoned of grace but of debt.

So verse 5 is saying "but to him that does not work to merit salvation but believeth...his faith is counted for righteousness." "But" is a contrasting word contrasting the meritorious worker from the one with obedient faith. So "worketh not" does not exclude all works for it does not exclude a faithful obedience to God's will, it is excluding works of merit of verse 4. Futhermore, it is a biblcal fact in Jn 6:27-29 among many other verses that a saving belief is a work, it is obedience (Jn 3:36 American Standard Version) for belief must include obedient works else it is dead.

Therefore in v5 "worketh not" would not include an obedience to God's throug belief will for Paul would not contradict himself by first excluding all works then include the work of believing. In the context Paul uses Abraham's faith which was an an obeient faith, Heb 11:8,17 James 2:21-24

A point I brought up in a thrad I started - Making Demands on the Gift Giver - where free gifts can and do come with conditions and working to meet those conditions do not, cannot earn the free gift already offered. A fact faith only proponents refuse to understand or acknowledge.

If they had not chosen to depart from/cast off the faith they would have been saved.....had CONTINUED in belief, Rom 10:11, they would not be ashamed.

The "they were not really saved to begin with" is nothing more than an excuse proponents of fatih only use to get around their problems the bible provides them.

1 Tim 4:1 "...some shall depart from the faith..." How can they "depart from the faith" if they never really had the faith to begin with, if they were always really faithless?

1 Tim 5:12 "...they have cast off their first faith." Again, how can they cast off something they never really had?

So the facts show us they were in a saved position until they departed from/cast off the faith.

Luke tells us Judas by transgresion fell, Acts 1:25. If Judas was "never really saved to begin with" then how can he fall by transgression if he was always fallen? What does a lost, always fallen person fall from? For him to fall by transgression means he must have been in a position where he was saved in order to fall by transgression. Acts 8 Simon was in a saved psotion yet later found himself in a present tense state of "perishing".

They were never in a "saved" position otherwise they would have been saved.

1Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

Would you call these people "saved." Apparently not, you use this verse as your argument. Yet from God's prophesy they are not on the salvation path, so why would you ever say they were saved. You yourself say that salvation is more than a one time "fire insurance" thing, I said it now I am saved. So why would you ever say they were saved to begin with, because of some hollow statement?

1Timothy 5:11-12
11 But refuse to put younger widows on the list, for when they feel sensual desires in disregard of Christ, they want to get married,
12 thus incurring condemnation, because they have set aside their previous pledge.

This verse is about marriage and speaks of condemnation, not damnation. The previous pledge was the fist marriage. Paul finishes his instruction further in this epistle:

13 At the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention.
14 Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach;

Would Paul say these women were going to be condemned if they follow their desires to be married then tell them to get married? I think not. You may want to proof read your verses before you present them to me as supporting your false case.

Judas was spoken of way before he fell...the son of perdition. He was destined to fall.

Acts 8...Simon was among those who were of the faith, that does not constitute salvation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

They were never in a "saved" position otherwise they would have been saved.

1Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

Would you call these people "saved." Apparently not, you use this verse as your argument. Yet from God's prophesy they are not on the salvation path, so why would you ever say they were saved. You yourself say that salvation is more than a one time "fire insurance" thing, I said it now I am saved. So why would you ever say they were saved to begin with, because of some hollow statement?

1Timothy 5:11-12
11 But refuse to put younger widows on the list, for when they feel sensual desires in disregard of Christ, they want to get married,
12 thus incurring condemnation, because they have set aside their previous pledge.

This verse is about marriage and speaks of condemnation, not damnation. The previous pledge was the fist marriage. Paul finishes his instruction further in this epistle:

13 At the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention.
14 Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach;

Would Paul say these women were going to be condemned if they follow their desires to be married then tell them to get married? I think not. You may want to proof read your verses before you present them to me as supporting your false case.

Judas was spoken of way before he fell...the son of perdition. He was destined to fall.

Acts 8...Simon was among those who were of the faith, that does not constitute salvation.

It is YOU, not the contexts, that say they never would have been saved anyway. And it is obvious to see why you have that need to add that idea to the context.


1 Tim 4:1 "....some will fall away from the faith..."

Logically they must be in the faith in order to fall away from the faith. So why would you argue one who IS "in the faith" is not really saved? Being "in the faith" is a saved position: Acts 16:5; 1 Cor 16:13; 2 Cor 13:5; Col 1:22,23; Col 2:7; tts 1:13

1 Tim 5:11,12 speaks of young widows casting off their first faith, casting off their first "pledge" they had toward Christ when they first became Christians and that they can cast off they faith/pledge in order to marry. This ties back to what Paul warned about in 1 Tim 4:1,2
If eternal secuity were true, then 1 Tim 5;12 verse would be impossible.
Albert Barnes tried to get around this verse by saying "This does not mean that they would lose all their religion, or wholly fall away, but that this would show that they had not the strong faith, the deadness to the world, the simple dependence on God." But Paul did not say they would "partially" cast off their faith or fall away just a little or cast off some of their faith while maintaining some of it.


God foreknew Judas of his own free will would choose to betray Christ, so God furthered His own will by using Judas' own free will choices, Judas was not preodained by God to do what he did...God nor the devil made him do it. Judas was a disciple, Lk 6:13,16 as much as the other 11 chosen in Lk 6 were disciples. Judas had a part in what is called by some the "limited commission" of Christ's found in Matt 10. It must be remembered everything said in Matt 10 about the apostles INCLUDES Judas. So Judas was in a saved position as an apostle until he chose of his own will to sin, Matt 27:4 and therefore fell by transgression from that saved positionas an apostle/disciple.


In Mk 16:16 Jesus said "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved">>>>>"Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized..." Acts 8:13. So according to Jesus' own words Simon would have been saved in Acts 13:8 else Jesus lied.

 

[justaname]

It is the context of the verse that says they will not continue in the faith... not my interpretation. You look at these and say they will not be saved, as I agree. In the end their fate is no salvation. We can say "if" all we like, but that is changing the specifics that make up this proposition. They had something that looked like salvation, yet in the end it proved false. They are never going to be saved, thereby they do not have a salvific faith.

Lets look at it this way...If a car does not have enough gas to go two miles and embarks on a journey three miles away, it never will complete its journey unless aided by another force, and it never was going to make it from the time it left.

We can say 'if' they would have put enough gas in it would have made it, but that would be changing the proposition.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It is the context of the verse that says they will not continue in the faith... not my interpretation. You look at these and say they will not be saved, as I agree. In the end their fate is no salvation. We can say "if" all we like, but that is changing the specifics that make up this proposition. They had something that looked like salvation, yet in the end it proved false. They are never going to be saved, thereby they do not have a salvific faith.

Lets look at it this way...If a car does not have enough gas to go two miles and embarks on a journey three miles away, it never will complete its journey unless aided by another force, and it never was going to make it from the time it left.

We can say 'if' they would have put enough gas in it would have made it, but that would be changing the proposition.

My point is they can be saved if they would continue in the faith but they will not be saved if they depart from/cast off the faith. Paul, writing tothechurch at Colossae said "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

There is no certainty a Christian will continue in the faith but he must if he desires to be saved. "IF" is a conditional word making salvation conditonal upon continuing in the faith.


Your analogy:

If a car does not have enough gas to go two miles and embarks on a journey three miles away, it never will complete its journey unless aided by another force, and it never was going to make it from the time it left.


So the car did have gas in it to begin with as a Christian did have faith to begin with and the car did go the distance with that gas, a Christian can go for a while saved and then not continue in the faith. But you cannot say the car never really have gas in it to begin with since it did not make it all the way, no more you cannot say a peson never really had faith if they are not saved in the end.

A car that runs out of gas can have more gas put in it to make it all the way, just a Christian who may depart from the faith can repent and come back to the faith and make it to the end. How much gas the car has or how much faith one has is not predetermined by God. GOd does not give a car only so much gas that it cannot make the distance, if so then God is at fault for the car not making the distance. YOU decide how much gas is in your car and if it runs out YOU decide to put more in or not.

 

[justaname]

My point is they can be saved if they would continue in the faith but they will not be saved if they depart from/cast off the faith. Paul, writing tothechurch at Colossae said "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

There is no certainty a Christian will continue in the faith but he must if he desires to be saved. "IF" is a conditional word making salvation conditonal upon continuing in the faith.


Your analogy:

If a car does not have enough gas to go two miles and embarks on a journey three miles away, it never will complete its journey unless aided by another force, and it never was going to make it from the time it left.


So the car did have gas in it to begin with as a Christian did have faith to begin with and the car did go the distance with that gas, a Christian can go for a while saved and then not continue in the faith. But you cannot say the car never really have gas in it to begin with since it did not make it all the way, no more you cannot say a peson never really had faith if they are not saved in the end.

A car that runs out of gas can have more gas put in it to make it all the way, just a Christian who may depart from the faith can repent and come back to the faith and make it to the end. How much gas the car has or how much faith one has is not predetermined by God. GOd does not give a car only so much gas that it cannot make the distance, if so then God is at fault for the car not making the distance. YOU decide how much gas is in your car and if it runs out YOU decide to put more in or not.

From my analogy salvation is not only the journey but also the destination. You can not claim the destination unless it is fact. There is only the saved and the unsaved, and God knows everyone's final solution. In His perspective of eternity he knows everyone's outcome already, thereby he is not going to save those who are not going to be saved. Those who are saved will continue, do continue, and have no chance of not continuing in the faith.

 

[williemac]

A car that runs out of gas can have more gas put in it to make it all the way, just as a Christian who may depart from the faith can repent and come back to the faith and make it to the end.

Heb.6: 4-6....." For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of GOD and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame"

You think there is such a thing as saved/lost/saved/lost? Not according to this passage. Salvation, that is the giving of everlasting life through faith in Him, is a one time event and cannot be repeated. In light of this fact, I would advise you to give careful consideration as to just what would qualify as "falling away".

As far as this quote from you goes..."
I am curious. On other forums I have participated on, proponents of eternal secuity do not go so far as to say one can lose his faith yet still be saved. I am curious as to how many proponents of eternal security on this forum will say a Christain does not have to maintain his belief yet still be saved?
A sad statement on your part, as it is regard to a partial reply of mine. Here is more of that reply.

" This is not so much a sustaining of faith as it is a putting on of the armour of God. This is done through our understanding of truth. People who are double minded are they who are unstable. One needs to know and fully understand why he has the hope that lies within him. This is not an effort to believe. This is about hearing the word and understanding it. Faith comes by this kind of hearing. It doesn't go away in the case of those who are on a solid foundation of the truth of the gospel." "This is not an effort to believe."

My point, in case you missed it, is that faith is not what you say it is. You are misled as to its meaning, role, and purpose. Faith is NOT A WORK. For example:

If you asked me what highway you should take to get to England, this would be obvious to me that you are not aware of the ocean that lies between us and England. So I might bring this to your attention by using your own words and reply..." the highway you take is the pacific ocean" .. Am I telling you that the ocean is a highway? No. You would know that by my reply, and would have understood the introduction of new information.

In the same way, when they asked Jesus what work they should do, He used their own words to correct thier misunderstanding by saying..."this is the work of God, that you should believe on Him whom He sent". This is the same kind of reply that Jesus gave them. He was using thier word "work" as a figure of speech, drawing their attention away from themselves and putting it on Himself. They would have understood that believing is not a work , and therefore would have understood the re-direction to new information. But if you insist that this is literal, then you make Paul a liar and/or a deceiver. Your choice. You can either read your own ideas into a single text, or understand a truth in light of all relevant scripture.

As I said, saving faith is not an effort on our part. It doesn't take energy. It is a humble acceptance of a free gift. It is effortless. Therefore, staying saved is not so much a matter of effort in maintaining faith, but resisting the temptations to exchange faith for something else. People don't just stop believing. They change their mind. Or they are led astray by contrary doctrine, as the Galatians were. Read all about it. They went to trying to be justified by works, after they had already freely received life.

In working for my salvation, or assisting Him in saving me, I would be making it about me, not Him. This is a violation and an offense to God, who resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Read all about it in Luke 18:10-14

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

From my analogy salvation is not only the journey but also the destination. You can not claim the destination unless it is fact. There is only the saved and the unsaved, and God knows everyone's final solution. In His perspective of eternity he knows everyone's outcome already, thereby he is not going to save those who are not going to be saved. Those who are saved will continue, do continue, and have no chance of not continuing in the faith.

But of course you would present an analogy that fits your thinking.
Just because God foreknows where one will be in eternity does not mean God predetermined it. God does not predetermine the amount of gas in the car and does not predetermine who will have a saving faith and who not have a saving faith.

Heb.6: 4-6....." For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of GOD and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame"

You think there is such a thing as saved/lost/saved/lost? Not according to this passage. Salvation, that is the giving of everlasting life through faith in Him, is a one time event and cannot be repeated. In light of this fact, I would advise you to give careful consideration as to just what would qualify as "falling away".

As far as this quote from you goes..."
I am curious. On other forums I have participated on, proponents of eternal secuity do not go so far as to say one can lose his faith yet still be saved. I am curious as to how many proponents of eternal security on this forum will say a Christain does not have to maintain his belief yet still be saved?
A sad statement on your part, as it is regard to a partial reply of mine. Here is more of that reply.

" This is not so much a sustaining of faith as it is a putting on of the armour of God. This is done through our understanding of truth. People who are double minded are they who are unstable. One needs to know and fully understand why he has the hope that lies within him. This is not an effort to believe. This is about hearing the word and understanding it. Faith comes by this kind of hearing. It doesn't go away in the case of those who are on a solid foundation of the truth of the gospel." "This is not an effort to believe."

My point, in case you missed it, is that faith is not what you say it is. You are misled as to its meaning, role, and purpose. Faith is NOT A WORK. For example:

If you asked me what highway you should take to get to England, this would be obvious to me that you are not aware of the ocean that lies between us and England. So I might bring this to your attention by using your own words and reply..." the highway you take is the pacific ocean" .. Am I telling you that the ocean is a highway? No. You would know that by my reply, and would have understood the introduction of new information.

In the same way, when they asked Jesus what work they should do, He used their own words to correct thier misunderstanding by saying..."this is the work of God, that you should believe on Him whom He sent". This is the same kind of reply that Jesus gave them. He was using thier word "work" as a figure of speech, drawing their attention away from themselves and putting it on Himself. They would have understood that believing is not a work , and therefore would have understood the re-direction to new information. But if you insist that this is literal, then you make Paul a liar and/or a deceiver. Your choice. You can either read your own ideas into a single text, or understand a truth in light of all relevant scripture.

As I said, saving faith is not an effort on our part. It doesn't take energy. It is a humble acceptance of a free gift. It is effortless. Therefore, staying saved is not so much a matter of effort in maintaining faith, but resisting the temptations to exchange faith for something else. People don't just stop believing. They change their mind. Or they are led astray by contrary doctrine, as the Galatians were. Read all about it. They went to trying to be justified by works, after they had already freely received life.

In working for my salvation, or assisting Him in saving me, I would be making it about me, not Him. This is a violation and an offense to God, who resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Read all about it in Luke 18:10-14

First, the context of Heb 6 beyond doubt shows that a Christian can fall away and as far as the word "impossible", it was not impossible for Simon to repent in Acts 8. If repentance were "impossible" then Peter would have known it yet Peter commands Simon to repent. The imperative implies both the ability and responsibility upon Simon to repent, it implies repentance is POSSIBLE.

The context in Heb 6 speaks of a Christian who has fallen into a state where he CONTINUOUSLY crucifies Christ and CONTINUOUSLY puts Christ to shame with both verbs 'crucify' and 'put' being in the Greek present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action. Christ is the reason one repents but if one is in a state where he continually crucifies and puts to shame "the reason" to repent, then it would be impossible for him to repent. But if one quits crucifying and putting to shame 'the reason' then he can come to repentance.

As far as your comments about not sustaining belief, your further comments did not change that direct statement that one does not need to sustained his belief to keep his new birth or indwelling of the HS spirit.


Mk 2:1-5 Jesus saw their faith. The work jesus saw is called faith for faith is a work.

in Jn 6:27-29 beleving is not a work God does, it was a work Jesus gave His listeners.

They asked what WE must DO. Jesus did not tell them to do nothing that God would do everything for them but Jesus gave them the work of believing for them to do.

Jn 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

"Believeth" is set in contrast to "obeyeth not" meaning belief is obedience, an obedient work as Jesus gave in Jn 6

Comparing Acts 2:41 with v44 we see that "believed" in 44 includes the work of submitting to baptism of v41.

In Jn 3:16 jesus connected belief to not perishing as He did with repentance in Lk 13:3,5 Since there is just one way to be saved (not perish) then belief MUST include the work or repentance for all the belief only in the world cannot save an impenitent person.