The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

"By, through, in, Purgatory the person is............. Eventually Saved"?

In one claim you say a soul in "Purgatory" is already "saved" and now you say in "Purgatory" the person is "eventually" saved.

I disagree with your teaching.

BEFORE a mans PHYSICAL DEATH;
SOME MEN, BECOME "MADE" "WHOLE", by the POWER of God.

Their BODY given unto death, crucified with Christ.
Their BODY, cleansed in The BLOOD of JESUS. Their BODY, forgiven and SINS COVERED with the LIGHT of CHRST.
Their BODY, sanctified by The AUTHORITY and POWER of CHRIST.
Their BODY KEPT "WITH" Christ Jesus.

Their SOUL RESTORED and SAVED unto the Lord God.

Their SPIRIT QUICKENED, BORN AGAIN of the SEED OF GOD.

YET you teach, The POWER of God WITHIN SUCH A MAN, is NOT ENOUGH, and such a man "REQUIRES" going to some mysterious unknown place or state of being FOR the Lord TO "DO WHAT"? AS YOU SAY...

THE MYSTERY of a SOUL "WAITING" for SALVATION, is "APPLICABLE" to "OT" men.
"THEY" knew "THEIR" soul DEPARTED a physically DEAD BODY.
"THEY" knew "THEIR" soul "WAITED" to BECOME SAVED "BY" "THEIR" MESSIAH SAVIOR, THAT "THEY" waited FOR "IN" comfort, "WITH" Abraham.

THE MYSTERY has BEEN REVEALED.
THE CHRIST MESSIAH SAVIOR has BEEN REVEALED.
SALVATION is COME, "TO" "THEM" who Trust to BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST and ACCEPT His OFFERING OF SALVATION!

Scripture TEACHES the Lords Work "IN" a physically alive (HEARTFULLY BELIEVING) man (WHO SURRENDERS His LIFE TO THE Lord)...
THE Lord Himself....(BY His POWER and AUTHORITY, MAKES the MAN A WHOLE NEW CREATURE...
BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT....
AND
The OLD DEAD physical body (lying, rotting in an earthen grave) SHALL BE RAISED IN GLORY....ON THE DAY OF HIS CHOOSING.

TEACHING the OT WAY "STILL" Applies, (is a FAIL) "AFTER" JESUS arrived ON EARTH and TAUGHT; A man can BECOME a NEW CREATURE, (BEFORE the mans PHYSICAL DEATH)...AND JESUS "IS" the "WAY" for the WHOLENESS of a man TO BECOME ACCOMPLISHED!

The Firmament is UP and OUTSIDE of Earths Atmosphere.

Gen 1

1. [7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
2. [8] And God called the firmament Heaven.

Hell is DOWN in the center of the Earth.

Ezek 26:
[20] When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth,...

Glory to God,
Taken

UNREAL . . .

What a gigantic contradiction.
FIRST, you say that I am still thinking the "OT way" - yet YOU describe Heaven as Gen 1:8 describes the SKY. This is NOT talking about the Heaven of eternity - but the heavens (sky, clouds, starts, planets, etc). LEARN the difference . . .

And NO - Hell is not at the center of the earth. God is NOT Edgar Rice Burroughs. This was just an allegorical understanding of Hell. Hell is NOT on planet Earth, Einstein.

You'll NEVER understand Purgatory because you don't even understand Heaven, Hell and Earth . . .

 

[epostle]

What bible translation does this come from?

Pick anyone you like.

 

[epostle]

YET you teach, The POWER of God WITHIN SUCH A MAN, is NOT ENOUGH, and such a man "REQUIRES" going to some mysterious unknown place or state of being FOR the Lord TO "DO WHAT"? AS YOU SAY...

No, we do not say "The POWER of God WITHIN SUCH A MAN, is NOT ENOUGH" That is a gross misrepresentation, a false man made tradition. Technically, you deny the all sufficiency of Christ, not us. NICK'S CATHOLIC BLOG: Does Imputation make the Resurrection superfluous?

 

[brakelite]

Your edited Protestant Bibles stop at verse 30.
The original Bible the Jesus and the Apostles studied from goes on for another 70 verses.

Thankyou. I didn't know there was a section in Daniel that was disputed. So I did a little reading and discovered that those verses were included in the Septuagint, but not in the original Hebrew text. I wouldn't be so bold as to state categorically that Jesus read from the Septuagint rather than Hebrew or Aramaic texts.

 

[brakelite]

Pick anyone you like.

No thanks. The translators for the KJV weren't dummies. They had good reasons to exclude the apocryphal books, and set aside the dubious and inférior manuscripts used by Jerome and Erasmus et al. And modern protestants i believe have good reasons for rejecting the modern offshoots that began with the RSV. But hey, that's just my opinion. I didn't know about Azariahs prayer. And when I read it, it rang no bells of conviction in me. But again, I'm only human and I could be wrong.

 

[brakelite]

No, we do not say "The POWER of God WITHIN SUCH A MAN, is NOT ENOUGH" That is a gross misrepresentation, a false man made tradition. Technically, you deny the all sufficiency of Christ, not us. NICK'S CATHOLIC BLOG: Does Imputation make the Resurrection superfluous?

Serious question. If the purpose of purgatory is to remove and deal with the temporal punishments for sin, does that not weaken the propitiatory nature of the death of Jesus?
And if some are found worthy to go directly top heaven, what happened to their temporal punishments?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thankyou. I didn't know there was a section in Daniel that was disputed. So I did a little reading and discovered that those verses were included in the Septuagint, but not in the original Hebrew text. I wouldn't be so bold as to state categorically that Jesus read from the Septuagint rather than Hebrew or Aramaic texts.

There are some 200 references quotes and allusions to the 7 Deuterocanonical Books in the NT.
There is NO disputing that Jesus and the NT writers studied from the Septuagint.

For example . . .
Eph. 6:13-17 - The whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
The mockery of the Pharisees at the foot of the cross in Matt. 27:43 is foretold in Wis. 2:12-20.
Heb 11:35 - teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.
Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

 

[Taken]

First of all - I find it both interesting and hilarious how Protestants - and even YOU - throw around Rom 10:3 to deny Mary's sinlessness -[/QUOTE}

Are you taught and believe Mary was "sinless"?

If so, ARE YOU ALSO TAUGHT....at what POINT EXACTLY, did Mary BECOME "sinless"?

Perhaps YOU COULD answer that question.

As for the rest of your insane diatribe -

LOL. A perfect pat response from you. Disagree with NOTHING SPECIFIC, just give some snarky comment.

although you MAY be n the road to perfection - you ain't there yet.

Yet again you FAIL in understanding.
YOU, speak of PERFECT and PERFECTION of the person...
WHILE I speak of the person being PERFECT-ED, "IN" Christ.

Obviously you KNOW NOT the difference of an INDIVIDUAL Being perfect....and an INDIVIDUAL "IN CHRIST" Being perfect-ED.

Your delusion at you already are

No, it is not a delusion. It is YOUR FAILURE to comprehend The magnificent GIFTS "received" BY A MAN.... IN CHRIST...that DOES NOT APPLY to a man "NOT" IN CHRIST.

- it is a cautionary tale for everybody reading this about the effects of spiritual arrogance . . .

Per YOUR Catholic teaching, MAKE CLAIMS without a Lick of Evidence to support your claim.

YOU say, BEING "PERFECTED IN CHRIST" is a cautionary tale...? Thanks for sharing your Catholic beliefs, which are IN DIRECT CONTRAST to the WORD OF GOD.

Heb 10:14
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1 Cor 1:
[30] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Perhaps you should learn HOW and WHEN an individual BECOMES "sanctified" and WHAT "sanctified" means.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Are you taught and believe Mary was "sinless"?

If so, ARE YOU ALSO TAUGHT....at what POINT EXACTLY, did Mary BECOME "sinless"?

Perhaps YOU COULD answer that question.

Mary was sinless from conception (Luke 1:28).

I have debated this with MANY people here - including YOU - and you ALL throw Rom. 3:10 at me as "proof" that she couldn't be sinless.
NOW, you are using Rom. 3:10 to show that YOU are righteous.

This is a gigantic hypocrisy . . .

 

[Taken]

UNREAL . . .

What a gigantic contradiction.
FIRST, you say that I am still thinking the "OT way" - yet YOU describe Heaven as Gen 1:8 describes the SKY. This is NOT talking about the Heaven of eternity - but the heavens (sky, clouds, starts, planets, etc). LEARN the difference . . .

Scripture says God MADE the Firmament.
Scripture says the Firmament DIVIDED Waters Above the Firmament from Waters Below the Firmament.
Scripture says God called the Firmament HEAVEN.
Scripture says God spoke Lights to be IN the Firmament, and it was so.

The Firmament did not CHANGE, because you call "WHAT YOU CAN SEE" .... the sky. The SKY IS IN the Firmament that is Heaven, as ARE the Stars, that a mans eye can see. Stars are TRILLIONS of miles away FROM Earth, IN the Firmament that God called Heaven, yet an earthly mans EYES can SEE a star.

Doesn't matter to me if you read, believe or understand Scripture.

And NO - Hell is not at the center of the earth.

This was just an allegorical understanding of Hell. Hell is NOT on planet Earth, Einstein.

No one said Hell is "ON" Earth.
It is forever uneventful to have a conversation with someone like you, who does NOT comprehend the understanding of simple words, like...."ON" and "IN".

So what happened, Don't know the answer of WHEN "exactly" you Catholics CLAIM Mary was FIRST "sinless"?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Mary was sinless from conception (Luke 1:28).

What do "YOU" mean by "conception"?

When SHE became Pregnant with Jesus?
OR
When SHE was in her own mothers womb?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

What do "YOU" mean by "conception"?

When SHE became Pregnant with Jesus?
OR
When SHE was in her own mothers womb?

Glory to God,
Taken

MARY'S conception - when SHE was conceived.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Scripture says God MADE the Firmament.
Scripture says the Firmament DIVIDED Waters Above the Firmament from Waters Below the Firmament.
Scripture says God called the Firmament HEAVEN.
Scripture says God spoke Lights to be IN the Firmament, and it was so.

The Firmament did not CHANGE, because you call "WHAT YOU CAN SEE" .... the sky. The SKY IS IN the Firmament that is Heaven, as ARE the Stars, that a mans eye can see. Stars are TRILLIONS of miles away FROM Earth, IN the Firmament that God called Heaven, yet an earthly mans EYES can SEE a star.

Doesn't matter to me if you read, believe or understand Scripture.

"Heaven" in this context is talking about the "heavens" - the sky, outer space, the stars, etc.
It is NOT talking about the place where saved souls spend eternity with God, Einstein.

I shouldn't have to explain this to you . . .

No one said Hell is "ON" Earth.
It is forever uneventful to have a conversation with someone like you, who does NOT comprehend the understanding of simple words, like...."ON" and "IN".

So what happened, Don't know the answer of WHEN "exactly" you Catholics CLAIM Mary was FIRST "sinless"?

Glory to God,
Taken

Okay - Hell is not "IN" planet earth either, Einstein.
This is allegorical - can you understand "allegorical"??

I didn't think so . . .

 

[Taken]

No, we do not say "The POWER of God WITHIN SUCH A MAN, is NOT ENOUGH" That is a gross misrepresentation, a false man made tradition.

YOU presented a Diagram Created BY a Catholic.

You said the Diagram was a Concept based on Judaism.

Are Catholics Teaching what APPLIED to Jews (UNDER THE LAW) APPLIES to Gentiles NOT UNDER THE LAW?

IN the OT the SOULS of faithful men of the Tribes of ISRAEL, WAITED IN HELL, (with Abraham) separated from FROM the SOULS of Unfaithful men also in Hell.

The faithful were WAITING for their SAVIOR to Deliver them FROM Hell, TO Heaven.

THAT already happened, WHEN our Lord Jesus and Savior, was bodily Killed, His body buried in a cave, His SOUL departed HIS BODY and WENT TO Hell (ie the Heart of the earth), SINCE as Scripture Teaches....
HE IS FIRST and BEFORE ALL THINGS. His was the FIRST SOUL to LEAVE HELL.

UNFAITHFUL SOULS still WAIT in Hell, waiting for Judgement.
FAITHFUL SAVED SOULS depart their dead bodies and go Directly to Heaven.

You are teaching SAVED SOULS are in some sort of LIMBO, WAITING for "others" to do "good" deeds on the "limbo waiters behalf".

Jesus' GOOD NEWS, reports nothing of the sort. A mans SOUL either Becomes Saved and departs a dead body and is escorted to Heaven...or it Does not become Saved and is sent to Hell (away from God) to wait Judgement.

Aside from your Catholic Diagram, WHAT SCRIPTURE of Jesus' NEW Covenant do you claim teaches SAVED SOULS, WAIT in (some undefined PLACE), to be released BY "other men" doing good deeds, such as being charitable, going to mass, partaking in the Eucharist, praying for their release?

Technically, you deny the all sufficiency of Christ, not us.

Hogwash! I am not the one preaching Jesus Saving a mans SOUL...is insufficient, and that His Forgiveness is insufficient....
That would be you, SINCE you are the one claiming an "interim" is necessary, BEFORE a SAVED SOUL can Enter Heaven.

Your claim is; A purification of the soul is necessary....
Jesus' teaching is; A man whose soul IS SAVED, IS ALREADY made sanctified.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

MARY'S conception - when SHE was conceived.

You already prove you do not know the meaning of words.

Was Mary sinnless when SHE became Pregnant?
Or
Was Mary sinless in her Mothers Womb?
Or both?

Is it too difficult for you to answer the questions?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

"Heaven" in this context is talking about the "heavens" - the sky, outer space, the stars, etc.
It is NOT talking about the place where saved souls spend eternity with God, Einstein.

I shouldn't have to explain this to you . . .

Okay - Hell is not "IN" planet earth either, Einstein.
This is allegorical - can you understand "allegorical"??

Sure. Allegorical, Symbolic, Parables, Fiction, Non-Literal, etc. .....all your handy "friends" WHEN you choose NOT to BELIEVE what IS Written IN Scripture, and instead choose to interpret Scripture with "your" truth, and pass it off as one of your "friends". (Allegorical, Symbolic, Parable, Fiction, Non-Literal).

The FAIL is overlooking All Scripture is TRUE.
Jesus IS the TRUTH. He can not Speak what is NOT TRUE, regardless of WHAT His speech is "called".

Scripture; Believe it or not.
Gen 1
[8] And God called the firmament Heaven.

Scripture; Believe it or not.
Matt 12
[40]... the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Scripture; Believe it or not.
Luke 16: 19-31
"IN HELL"

Scripture; Believe it or not.
2 Pet 2:
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell

Scripture; Believe it or not.
Eph 4:
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

You want to teach your Catholic understanding, THAT'S YOU. Some people CHOOSE to Trust Scripture IS TRUE, and Gods Understanding of His Scriptural Truths, is Given BY HIM, to men who First BELIEVE His Scriptural Truths.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sure. Allegorical, Symbolic, Parables, Fiction, Non-Literal, etc. .....all your handy "friends" WHEN you choose NOT to BELIEVE what IS Written IN Scripture, and instead choose to interpret Scripture with "your" truth, and pass it off as one of your "friends". (Allegorical, Symbolic, Parable, Fiction, Non-Literal).

The FAIL is overlooking All Scripture is TRUE.
Jesus IS the TRUTH. He can not Speak what is NOT TRUE, regardless of WHAT His speech is "called".

Scripture; Believe it or not.
Gen 1
[8] And God called the firmament Heaven.

Scripture; Believe it or not.
Matt 12
[40]... the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Scripture; Believe it or not.
Luke 16: 19-31
"IN HELL"

Scripture; Believe it or not.
2 Pet 2:
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell

Scripture; Believe it or not.
Eph 4:
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

You want to teach your Catholic understanding, THAT'S YOU. Some people CHOOSE to Trust Scripture IS TRUE, and Gods Understanding of His Scriptural Truths, is Given BY HIM, to men who First BELIEVE His Scriptural Truths.

Glory to God,
Taken

Like I said before - if you actually believe that Hell is in Middle Earth with the Hobbits and Heaven is in the sky and stars - you can never understand an infinite and eternal God.
You don't even understand that Scripture is BOTH literal and allegorical . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You already prove you do not know the meaning of words.

Was Mary sinnless when SHE became Pregnant?
Or
Was Mary sinless in her Mothers Womb?
Or both?

Is it too difficult for you to answer the questions?

Glory to God,
Taken

I believe I've already told you TWICE.
Post #432 couldn't be ANY clearer.

Are you really this dense - or is this an act??

 

[Taken]

Like I said before - if you actually believe that Hell is in Middle Earth,

I actually believe Scripture, that Hell is in the Lower part of the earth.

with the Hobbits

TYPICAL Catholic tatic, to try and imply an other has made a claim with your ridiculous words.

Heaven is in the sky and stars -

Having a hard time understanding PLAIN language? Heaven is the Firmament. The Stars are in the Firmament.

you can never understand an infinite and eternal God.

Understand God...? LOL, I never claimed to Understand God, nor remotely do I believe that "YOU" Understand God.
Scripture teaches God desires men to Understand HIS WORD according to His Spirit.
You repeatedly reveal your Understanding of HIS WORD balances on Carnal understanding ... case in point, your "hobbit" remark.

You don't even understand that Scripture is BOTH literal and allegorical . . .

You do not comprehend Scripture is ALL True.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I believe I've already told you TWICE.
Post #432 couldn't be ANY clearer.

You simply avoided answering the questions and repeated yourself.

Are you really this dense - or is this an act??

I have no clue "IF" you know what conceived means, but suspect you are without understanding.

Try really hard to answer the questions....
It's very simple to write "yes" or "no", but if you are afraid to answer "yes" or "no", just say so.

Glory to God,
Taken