The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

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CovenantPromise

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Catholics believe that this verse is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary – itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated “highly favored” – which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language).

Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary’s freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don’t see that this is “fitting” or “appropriate” (as Catholics do).

The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:

“Highly favoured” (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received‘; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow‘” (Plummer).
Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated “grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as “to endue with Divine favour or grace” (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to “divine favor, that is, God’s grace” (White, 201).

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary’s personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:

Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .(Kittel, 1304-1305)
Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean “a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18” (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary’s sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and “conqueror” of sin (emphases added in the following verses):
Romans 6:14

We are saved by grace, and grace alone:

Ephesians 2:8-10

Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

1. Grace saves us.

2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It’s a “zero-sum game”: the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:6, 9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.

2. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

5. To be “full of” God’s grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

In this fashion, the essence of the Immaculate Conception (i.e., the sinlessness of Mary) is proven from biblical principles and doctrines accepted by every orthodox Protestant. Certainly all mainstream Christians agree that grace is required both for salvation and to overcome sin. So in a sense my argument is only one of degree, deduced (almost by common sense, I would say) from notions that all Christians hold in common.

One possible quibble might be about when God applied this grace to Mary. We know (from Luke 1:28) that she had it as a young woman, at the Annunciation. Catholics believe that God gave her the grace at her conception so that she might avoid the original sin that she otherwise would have inherited, being human. Therefore, by God’s preventive grace, she was saved from falling into the pit of sin, rather than rescued after she had fallen in.

All of this follows straightforwardly from Luke 1:28 and the (primarily Pauline) exegesis of charis elsewhere in the New Testament. It would be strange for a Protestant to underplay grace, when they are known for their constant emphasis on grace alone for salvation. (We Catholics fully agree with that; we merely deny the tenet of “faith alone,” as contrary to the clear teaching of St. James and St. Paul.)

Protestants keep objecting that these Catholic beliefs are speculative; that is, that they go far beyond the biblical evidence. But once one delves deeply enough into Scripture and the meanings of the words of Scripture, they are not that speculative at all. Rather, it looks much more like Protestant theology has selectively trumpeted the power of grace when it applies to all the rest of us Christian believers, but downplayed it when it applies to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

What we have, then, is not so much a matter of Catholics reading into Scripture, as Protestants, in effect, reading certain passages out of Scripture altogether (that is, ignoring their strong implications), because they do not fit in with their preconceived notions (yet another instance of my general theme).

Luke 1:28 ("Full of Grace") and the Immaculate Conception

You have no clue what Immaculate Conception means nor does one thing you posted prove your version of it. You are indoctrinated and contradict the scriptures.
 

CovenantPromise

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He will only find it in the Apocrypha, which is not included in the English Bible. A great reference for History though. Catholics include the Apocrypha. It's not recognized as divine scripture.
Apocrypha:
biblical or related writings not forming part of the accepted canon of Scripture.
writings or reports not considered genuine.

I debate with Catholics all the time and I never loose thanks to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.I have to laugh, I quote from the Ethiopian Book of Enoch and Catholics tell me "It's not Canon" nor "deuterocanonical " yet they use books that are neither their base canon or deuterocanonical to form doctrines that they call Dogma . So they use books that they themselves deem "not genuine" to form doctrines yet tell others they cannot. IRONIC! They have the nerve to contradict scripture, and Mother Miryam's(MARY'S) OWN WORDS . They Call her and St. Paul liars when they deny their claims and put theirs in replace of . The Scriptures clearly point out when she was Immaculately Conceived and also tell us that before that she did have original sin .For there are no distinctions. Her distinction came at the Annunciation . Unlike you I can prove my argument with the scriptures guided by the Holy Spirit. And I am sure I will not be banned for what you can disprove but rather for what you will NOT!
 

Giuliano

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andddddddddddd ?????????? keep praying to mary see how far it gets you
Having Mary as a friend may help. At Cana, I'd say someone did some poor planning for the wedding. I daresay had they asked Jesus to do anything about it wouldn't have gotten too far. Jesus seemed a little surprised when Mary asked, saying his time was not yet. Yet when she asked, he found a way to grant her request.
 
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Taken

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Hello Taken,

Frankly, it is impossible for us to exalt Mary more than God already has in choosing her to be His mother.
Everything Mary is flows from who Jesus is:
She is the Queen mother, because He is the King.
She is the mother of God because Jesus is God.

To compare her to a harlot (even one who aided Israel) is disrespectful.

Do you think Jesus doesn't care when people disrespect His mother?

Peace be with you!

I simply observed "importance" being compared.

Jesus also did a comparison;

Mark 3
[33] And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
[34] And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
[35] For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
B

brakelite

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I think we could do well to debate the validity of so called original sin. I would like to see the evidence that people born today inherit Adam's guilt, particularly when there are verses in scripture that clearly Starr that the sins of the father are not laid upon the children.
So if there is no original sin, but we share without exception a fallen nature with the propensity to sin, then any argument over Mary's conception becomes moot.
 

CovenantPromise

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Having Mary as a friend may help. At Cana, I'd say someone did some poor planning for the wedding. I daresay had they asked Jesus to do anything about it wouldn't have gotten too far. Jesus seemed a little surprised when Mary asked, saying his time was not yet. Yet when she asked, he found a way to grant her request.
Clearly you have no clue about their relationship and nothing surprises Jesus. She is more than a friend she is our mother.
 

Mungo

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Ya, actually it does. Especially concerning the faith 'once for all delivered to the saints' Jude 3. The doctrines and dogmas of the rcc are found nowhere in the bible.

Doesn't say that everything was written down in the Bible.

Not sure what bible youre reading but ya, He does. And its clear enough that those who heard Him wanted to stone Him for claiming to be God!

And Catholic dogmas about Mary being the mother of Gods and Queen of heaven are clear enough for those willing to look for them.
 

Mungo

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okkkkkkkkkkk tell ya what you just keep holding on to that.. that is carnal teaching ..there is nothing in the Bible that even comes close to saying that. feel free to keep thinking your right .. it has no effect on me who knows maybe you think there is a man on the moon turning th light on /off o_O

When Protestants fall back on calling scripture and logic "carnal teaching" you know they've lost the argument.
 

Taken

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Careful – your lack of intellect is showing again . . .

“YOUR conception” means when YOU were conceived – not when YOU got pregnant.

MARY’S conception” means when MARY was conceived – not when MARY got pregnant.

So your point is? An angel came unto MARY, while "MARY" was IN HER MOTHER'S WOMB, and Talked to MARY?

– you will understand Luke 1:28 in the context in which it was written.

[/QUOTE]

Luke 1:28
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said...

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Nondenom40

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Doesn't say that everything was written down in the Bible.
The faith was (past tense) delivered in the first century. So, any johnnie come lately doctrines and dogmas are entirely man made and when compared with scripture, pitched into the trash bin of deceit.

And Catholic dogmas about Mary being the mother of Gods and Queen of heaven are clear enough for those willing to look for them.
Nothing regarding salvation should be something we have to hunt and peck for in the bible. Gods word isn't a 'seek and find' or a hidden word puzzle kids doodle on in a restaurant. This is simply a gnostic approach to scripture. There isn't the slightest hint of roman catholic marian dogmas in the bible. You have to read that into the bible. Which is nothing more than eisegesis.

It never ceases to amaze me how catholics can find with ease the clear verses relating to OTHER people in the bible yet have zero, nothing, nada to offer when trying to tie these things to mary. For queen of heaven you have to run to the o.t. with solomon and bathsheba. For her assumption you have to go to Enoch or Elijah. Yet these 'dogmas' about mary which are necessary for your salvation are utterly, 100% absent from the bible. Odd that catholics can't see this gaping hole in their theology.
 
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Nondenom40

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BTW, I thought this thread was about Purgatory.
Okay, your ccc 1475 says you expiate your sins in purgatory. What does it mean to expiate sins? And where do we find this term in the bible? And to whom is this term applied to?
 

Taken

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Sorry but nowhere does God or anyone say just stick to what the bible actually says.

I disagree.

Whether the WORD of God be ORAL for ears to hear, or WRITTEN for eyes to read...

It is accounted as RIGHTEOUS for a man to "stick to" what the WORD of God SAYS, be it Oral, Written in Scripture, or Written in a mans Heart.

Luke 8
[21] And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

The Bible doesn't actually say that Jesus is God.

I disagree.

Isa 41
[4] Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isa 48
[12] Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

John 9
[9] Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.

John 18
[
8] Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:


But perhaps you don't believe that.

There is no one contesting that Jesus IS God, so why make such a presumption?

The Bible doesn't actually say that that God is Trinity.

TRI- is the prefix for THREE.
ITY- is the suffix for a STATE or CONDITION.

TRINITY is a term- denoting THREE whose state or condition IS ONE....and in this case...ONE GOD.

Scripture reveals NUMEROUS names and titles FOR the ONE "Lord God Almighty".

Rev 4
[8] And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

The CALLING of the Lord;
Jesus, Son, Messiah, Savior, Redeemer, Spirit, Most High, etc.

The CALLING of God;
Yahweh, Jehovah, Father, Savior, Spirit, Eternal, Most High, etc.

The CALLING of the Almighty;
Power, Light, Strength, God of Heaven, Spirit, etc.

No one has a Patent or exclusive rights on the WORD, TRINITY.

Catholics DEFINE the WORD TRINITY, to MEAN, and NOT MEAN, according to "their own beliefs", and have adopted an abstract drawing, called "the shield of the Trinity", as a quick reference meaning to their understanding of term TRINITY.

I believe A Trinity accurately represents the Lord God Almighty; but I do not myself adopt the so called "shield of the Trinity", to represent my beliefs about God.

But perhaps you don't believe that.

Again, Why the wondering what someone DOES NOT believe, without them having eluded to such a thing?

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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How can a vessel be chosen and unimportant at the same time? If you were to say MY mother "was no more important than rahab the harlot" in our presence, I would punch you in the face;

The disagreement is over the term "IMPORTANCE".

It matters NOT, "WHO" ...

A (believing) virgin woman, as was
.....(MARY, betrothed / and afterward, wife of Joseph)
A (believing) woman with demons, as was
.....(MARY, of Magdala)
A (believing) man without the confidance of speech, as was
.....(MOSES)
A (believing) man raised in his fathers house, (whose father had adopted Gentiles ways), as was
.....(ABRAM)

"THEIR" IMPORTANCE ALL HINGED....
"ON BELIEF"....AND...."THEM AGREEING TO DO"...
That which the Lord "CALLED THEM TO DO".

it would be natural to do so.

THAT IS THE POINT!!

Thinking and understanding and REACTING "TO SPIRITUAL THINGS"... WITH "NATURAL" instincts ... Instead of thinking and understanding and reacting...TO Spiritual things, with a Spiritual Thought process.

No matter what ANY person IS IN THEIR Natural state....A sinner, backbiter, deceiver, liar, cheater....THE Lord has Offered "THEM"...
A "WAY" to Become "divided and separated and set apart".
And those WHO ACCEPT the Lords "OFFERING" DOES NOT become "MORE IMPORTANT", then any OTHER person who has BECOME, SET APART.

The only rationale I can theorize for such a demonic statement is that you were abused by your own mother.

Rational? Theorize? Leaning on your Carnal mind for such ideas? Remember the Carnal MIND is Against God.

Abused by his own mother? YOU theorized an other person was abused by their own mother, when they have neither indicated or said any such thing?

Utter Nonsense.

In Catholic theology, God judges perfectly,

A Converted man BELIEVES God Judges JUSTLY.
Perfect judgement, Just judgement, doesn't set a Catholic apart from any other man who believes the same.

and takes all things into account,

Acknowledging God takes all things into account, doesn't set a Catholic apart from any other man who believes the same.

especially the deep seated scars that makes certain sins easy to come by. Especially the horrors we may have experienced in early childhood.

God "acknowledging" is ONE THING.
What a person has "experienced" is "ANOTHER THING".

It's not an excuse, it's called "diminished culpability".

Excuse? "Diminished culpability" ?

One committing a SIN, because he did not "KNOW" it was a SIN?

You switched from Gods "acknowledging" to something horrible a CHILD "experienced".

You are IMPLYING a Childs "horrible" "experience", MAY have been a SIN, the Child didn't "KNOW" was a SIN.

ANY person hearing, reading, learning the TRUTH of the WORD of God, and TRUSTING the WORD of God IS TRUE, "IS" a person "WHO SHOULD BE LEARNING"; God Himself is the "FORGIVER" of ALL SIN, "AND" the GREAT Physician that HEALS "ALL" disease.

Pss 103
[1] Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
[2] Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
[3] Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

When you die your life races before you, you will then stand before Jesus with all the vile things you said about His mother.

When YOU stand in Judgement; All your nasty accusations TOWARD them who ARE:
Jesus' brethren, Jesus' sister, Jesus' mother,...so also shall YOU be Accountable.

WHO IS Jesus' brethren, Jesus' sister, Jesus' mother...?

THEY ARE THEY WHO "DO HIS WILL".

Matt 12;
[46] While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
[47] Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
[48] But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
[49] And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
[50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

"IF" you read Matt 12 carefully;
WHERE Jesus was;
WHO was "INSIDE" with "HIM";
WHO was "OUTSIDE" without "HIM";
You would discover;
OUTSIDE, was "MARY" and Jesus' sibling brothers.
INSIDE, was Jesus' Disciple BRETHREN and SISTERS and MOTHER.

It neither "makes" Mary being outside or Jesus' brothers being outside, that they didn't "DO" the will of the Father;

However, it neither "makes" Mary EXCLUSIVELY "Jesus'" "MOTHER", as your Catholic teaching Does.

But be not afraid, He knows it's not entirely your fault.

No one expressed FEAR.
No one expressed a FAULT...but you.

No one is in Fear or claiming they had some Childhood experience they are feeling guilty about. That was YOUR example, and NOW you are trying to make YOUR EXAMPLE "APPLY" to another person, WHO NEVER Calimed that such an example APPLIED to them?

WEIRD....for YOU to make up stuff, and then pretend YOUR thoughts and ideas APPLY to other people.

The fire of His love for you will burn off that shit.

Be advised, "THAT SHIT", all came out of YOUR THOUGHTS and YOUR MOUTH.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

epostle

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BTW, I thought this thread was about Purgatory.
The Doctrine of Purgatory has been well defended on this thread; so anti-Catholics resort to the usual derailment tactics because they blindly refuse all reasonable explanations: derailers like repetitious prayer, Mary, Deuterocanonicals, Mary, Docetic arguments against the Real Presence, Mary, indulgences, demonic insults against Jesus' mother, Intercession of the Saints, Mary, and so on. It's too bad there is no one on one debate in this forum. This thread is peppered with derailers.
 
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