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The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Berserk, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. Nondenom40

    Nondenom40 Active Member

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    Ya, actually it does. Especially concerning the faith 'once for all delivered to the saints' Jude 3. The doctrines and dogmas of the rcc are found nowhere in the bible.

    Not sure what bible youre reading but ya, He does. And its clear enough that those who heard Him wanted to stone Him for claiming to be God!

    Again, not sure what bible youre reading but the trinity, while the word isn't there the teaching certainly is. And that from Gen 1 - Rev 22. But thats not the first time i've heard from catholics that the bible doesn't describe His nature, attributes or character.
     
  2. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    i dont know where these people get there ideas
    John 10:30

    “I and my Father are one.” 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    John 8:18-20 King James Version (KJV)
    18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

    19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

    20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

    sad the rcc is so full of deceit it is sad the biggest majority of the catholics only know what they are told.
     
  3. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    So then, if Jesus is God, then Mary is the mother of God.

    Likewise if Jesus is King, then Mary is the Queen mother...

    1kings 2:19 gives a snapshot of the place of the Queen mother in the Davidic kingdom:

    Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king's mother, who sat at his right.

    Peace!
     
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  4. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    wrong wrong wrong Mary is the mother of Jesus Mary was favored among all women . beyond that is is flesh and blood . has no power to forgive sins . when shed died her body went back to the dust. her soul in heaven Christ dies and rose again . He is the way the truth the life . you are adding to the word of God
    paid respect yes this is a physical kingdom
    John 18:36 King James Version (KJV)
    36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
     
  5. Nondenom40

    Nondenom40 Active Member

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    Said the bible nowhere.

    Said the bible nowhere.

    K. Now just give us the equally clear verse where Jesus pulls up a throne for mary. We'll wait.
     
  6. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Is Jesus not King?
     
  7. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Hello nondenom,

    Which of these statements are you disagreeing with:

    Jesus is God

    Jesus is King

    Mary is the mother of Jesus

    ??

    Peace!
     
  8. jshiii

    jshiii Well-Known Member

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    He will only find it in the Apocrypha, which is not included in the English Bible. A great reference for History though. Catholics include the Apocrypha. It's not recognized as divine scripture.
     
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  9. jshiii

    jshiii Well-Known Member

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    You are referring to the Apocrypha? It is a great reference for History, nothing more. It's not included in divine scripture. In other words, it's not inspired by God.
     
  10. Nondenom40

    Nondenom40 Active Member

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    I see you're able to post a clear verse regarding Solomon and Bathsheba. Where is the equally clear verses regarding Mary? In Catholic eyes she's greater than little ole Bathsheba isn't she? Why does Bathsheba get the ink where Mary doesn't?
     
  11. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    did i not say he was he is king of kings and Lord of Lords that does not make mary a spiritual queen .it only makes her the mother of Jesus . no where in scripture does it say pray to mary or worship mary
     
  12. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    THERE is none
     
  13. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    If Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is King, then Mary is the Queen mother.
    She holds the same place in Jesus' kingdom that Bathsheba held in Soloman's.

    Peace!
     
  14. jshiii

    jshiii Well-Known Member

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    (13) Could Heaven truly be a realm of bliss for the redeemed if they knew that close family members and other loved ones were confined to eternal conscious torment?[/QUOTE]

    I can answer 13. I have thought about this many times when it comes to my wife. I love my wife! With that said, I love Jesus eternally more!! My wife and I have had discussions about this and she fully understands she is in 2nd place. I cannot answer for her when she gets to judgement. However, she knows I'm a very loving earthly partner. We agree that after this life everyone is for themselves. We lift each other up all the time here on Earth. We pray for each other, we take care of each other, we love, an earthly love, to each. But we both know this is serious business and we know the war is against Satan!

    Uhhh! HEAVEN WILL BE WAY MORE THAN "BLISS"! I will get all my Pet Dogs back! And instead of barking, I will actually get to question them about tearing up my best shoes.....trust me they will answer :) So EXCITED to finally be able to communicate with them in God's love!!! Dogs do go to Heaven and God loves animals....he has all kinds of animals around, his throne, worshipping him, you can see it in scripture ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  15. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    okkkkkkkkkkk tell ya what you just keep holding on to that.. that is carnal teaching ..there is nothing in the Bible that even comes close to saying that. feel free to keep thinking your right .. it has no effect on me who knows maybe you think there is a man on the moon turning th light on /off o_O
     
  16. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Why do you deny the obvious?

    Is Jesus not King?
    Is Mary not His mother?

    What keeps you from acknowledging their relationship?

    Peace!
     
  17. epostle

    epostle Well-Known Member

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    Catholics believe that this verse is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary – itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated “highly favored” – which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language).

    Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary’s freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don’t see that this is “fitting” or “appropriate” (as Catholics do).

    The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:

    “Highly favoured” (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received‘; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow‘” (Plummer).
    Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated “grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (Vincent, I, 259).

    Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as “to endue with Divine favour or grace” (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to “divine favor, that is, God’s grace” (White, 201).

    Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary’s personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

    The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:

    Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .(Kittel, 1304-1305)
    Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean “a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18” (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary’s sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and “conqueror” of sin (emphases added in the following verses):

    Romans 6:14

    We are saved by grace, and grace alone:

    Ephesians 2:8-10

    Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

    1. Grace saves us.

    2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

    Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It’s a “zero-sum game”: the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:6, 9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

    1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

    2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

    A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

    1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

    2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

    A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

    1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.

    2. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.

    3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

    4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

    5. To be “full of” God’s grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

    6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

    7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

    8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.

    The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

    In this fashion, the essence of the Immaculate Conception (i.e., the sinlessness of Mary) is proven from biblical principles and doctrines accepted by every orthodox Protestant. Certainly all mainstream Christians agree that grace is required both for salvation and to overcome sin. So in a sense my argument is only one of degree, deduced (almost by common sense, I would say) from notions that all Christians hold in common.

    One possible quibble might be about when God applied this grace to Mary. We know (from Luke 1:28) that she had it as a young woman, at the Annunciation. Catholics believe that God gave her the grace at her conception so that she might avoid the original sin that she otherwise would have inherited, being human. Therefore, by God’s preventive grace, she was saved from falling into the pit of sin, rather than rescued after she had fallen in.

    All of this follows straightforwardly from Luke 1:28 and the (primarily Pauline) exegesis of charis elsewhere in the New Testament. It would be strange for a Protestant to underplay grace, when they are known for their constant emphasis on grace alone for salvation. (We Catholics fully agree with that; we merely deny the tenet of “faith alone,” as contrary to the clear teaching of St. James and St. Paul.)

    Protestants keep objecting that these Catholic beliefs are speculative; that is, that they go far beyond the biblical evidence. But once one delves deeply enough into Scripture and the meanings of the words of Scripture, they are not that speculative at all. Rather, it looks much more like Protestant theology has selectively trumpeted the power of grace when it applies to all the rest of us Christian believers, but downplayed it when it applies to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

    What we have, then, is not so much a matter of Catholics reading into Scripture, as Protestants, in effect, reading certain passages out of Scripture altogether (that is, ignoring their strong implications), because they do not fit in with their preconceived notions (yet another instance of my general theme).

    Luke 1:28 ("Full of Grace") and the Immaculate Conception
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
  18. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    LOOK i am only going to say this once
    i dont deny the physical relation ship Jesus is the only way truth life no man comes to the father but by him.. him alone mary had to be born again saved just like anyone one else .her corpse when she died stayed in the tomb /grave. she has NO spiritual authority .. this is the last time to explain this.. you need to read the Bible it will show you your error . other than that i am through beating a dead horse and trying to explain to you while your like a mule looking at a new gate .. search the scriptures John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. NOT MARY you are being carnal minded
     
  19. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Well I don't know about you, but my relationship with my mother is much more than just a physical connection...

    And as Jesus loves perfectly , He also has perfect filial love for His mother.

    There is no need to be afraid of Mary, she always points to her son and says 'do whatever He tells you.

    However one might want to refrain from disrespecting or denigrating her, so as not to offend her son.

    Peace be with you!
     
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  20. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    o_Oo_Oo_O:eek: SCRIPTURE PLEASE THAT SAYS THAT.....
     
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