The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[reformed1689]

"preaches that Christ alone is not enough to save and we must do works" is NOT Catholic teaching, it's standard Calvinoid polemics. And you accuse us of being brainwashed? Even your 'reputable' Calvinist authors (McCarthy) LIE on purpose, even though they are educated enough to know better. That's the brainwashing of Calvinism front row center.
Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy)

Yeah you work is that Baptism regenerates. Despite the fact that is directly against scripture.

 

[reformed1689]

the hypothetical of rejecting the (one true, historic) Church

That's just it, I do not reject one true historic church. But that is not the Catholic church as we know it today. In fact, it's not an organization at all. The church is true believers.

 

[reformed1689]

That's because you don't know your Bible.
ALL of them are supported by Scripture.

Yeah, you have yet to prove that at all. All you do is grossly take things out of context or try to force a meaning that clearly is not intended.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Scripture REVEALS, the angel told her SHE was Highly favored and Full of Grace.

Trying to peddle WHEN she BECAME Highly Favored or FULL of Grace.......BY some sort of "man thought" "IMPLICATION"...is a far Stretch from Evidence of FACT, of WHEN, Mary Became Highly Favored and FULL of Grace.

It wasn't a dodge...It was an IGNORE!
You regularly demand your questions be answered....while you regularly skip over answering others questions.

Save your deflections. Try to stay on point.
Still waiting HOW, Mary, as a WOMAN being TOLD she is FULL of Grace....TRANSLATES or SOMEHOW "IMPLIES"; "SHE" was naturally born SINLESS.

Glory to God,
Taken

Just as I thought. Thank you for showing us all how little you understand about Scripture.
time for a Bible lesson . . .

Biblical truth and doctrine comes to us in TWO ways from Scripture:
EXPLICIT teaching and IMPLICIT teaching.

An example of EXPLICIT doctrine would be Christs's sacrificial death for the expiation of our sins. this is explicitly mentioned over and over in the NT - and is in fact, one of the the main themes of the NT.

An example of IMPLICIT teaching would be the Trinity. Each Person of the Trinity is mentioned in Scripture and it is implied that each is God. The Father is explicitly called "God" in many verses - but not the Son or the Holy Spirit. Not all are described as being distinct Persons but it is implied. The doctrine states that ALL THREE are distinct Persons unto themselves but ALL THREE are ONE GOD.

It was the CHURCH who defined this - not Scripture. The CHURCH, with it's God-Given Authority to do so (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Lukr 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23). Ir is ALSO the Church that defined Mary's Immaculate Conception - from implied teaching in Scripture and from Sacred Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15).

Lastly - it was the CHURCH -and NOT Scripture that told us which Books belong in Sacred Scripture to begin with.
So, doctrines come to us from Scripture both EXPLICITLY and IMPLICITLY.

There ends the lesson.

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL...you Catholics are full of deceitful tricks.

BOL was speaking to me...and you pop in IMPLYING he was speaking to; (don't Forget to make a snarky remark...Near-sighted)....and then "Calvinist"....

Why are YOU implying, BOL speaking to me, is him SPEAKING to someone "near-sighted" or "Calvinist"?

Guess that is the WAY Catholics role..
If they won't JOIN YOU, make up crap about them. UGH!

Glory to God,
Taken

For what it's worth - I don't think of you as a Calvinist.
Calvinists, for the most part are Christians.

YOU, on the other hand deny the basic Christian tenet of faith that Christ was a human being as well as God . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah, you have yet to prove that at all. All you do is grossly take things out of context or try to force a meaning that clearly is not intended.

Then, perhaps YOU can take a stab at refuting Mary's title of "Kecharitomene".
Please explain how this doesn't set her apart as sinless.

I eagerly await your well-researched and intelligent response . . .

 

[Enoch111]

Yeah, you have yet to prove that at all. All you do is grossly take things out of context or try to force a meaning that clearly is not intended.

When anyone believes that Purgatory is really true, you should not expect anything biblical. BTW indulgences are still an integral part of the RCC.

 

[Philip James]

Philip James ~

Do you believe People "MUST" DO WORKS?

I believe that people MUST love God with all their heart and all their mind and all their soul, and that they MUST love one another.

As John says:

If anyone says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

Peace be with you!

 

[Philip James]

All of your Scripture is taken out of context to prop up a false church as infallible.

As you have already demonstrated that you have received no authority, your opinions are your own,
I will submit to the correction of 2000 years of my brethren.
You might want to consider humbling yourself and doing the same..

Peace!

 

[Taken]

Just as I thought. Thank you for showing us all how little you understand about Scripture.
time for a Bible lesson . . .

Understanding Scripture is manifested in TWO WAYS;
From the MINDS of men.
From God Himself.

You do have an uninteresting way of leaning toward putting your Trust in the minds of men when expressing your understanding.

Biblical truth and doctrine comes to us in TWO ways from Scripture:
EXPLICIT teaching and IMPLICIT teaching.

Each Person of the Trinity is mentioned in Scripture and it is implied that each is God.

TRI is simply THREE
UNITY is simply ONE UNITED WHOLE

Scripture EXPRESSLY identifies the ONE WHOLE OF GOD, regardless of how many names and titles are references to and of Him.

The doctrine states that ALL THREE are distinct Persons unto themselves but ALL THREE are ONE GOD.

Distinct Persons "BUT" One God"

ONE GOD, with DISTINCT Purposes.

Gods IDEAS/PLANS /WILL are one thing.
Gods WORD Reveals His IDEAS/PLANS/WILL
Gods POWER Effects His WILL.

It was the CHURCH who defined this - not Scripture.

"The" Church to a Catholic IS the Catholic Church. They should have stuck with Scripture.

The CHURCH, with it's God-Given Authority to do so (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Lukr 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

The Authoritative ROLE of the CHURCH is to Speak and Teach Gods WORD.

Ir is ALSO the Church that defined Mary's Immaculate Conception -

Obviously. They should have stuck with Scripture and Trusted God, without making up nonsense.

from implied teaching in Scripture and from Sacred Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15).

2 Thes 2:15
[15] Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Dude, come on... The Traditions in 2 Thes 2:15, being spoken of and TAUGHT, were Jewish "TRADITIONS" from the OT.

You trying to Peddle Catholic "Traditions" is a FAIL.

Absolutely men (particularly Gentiles), secured "high positions" in the early Church, and Preached all kinds of things, FOR CENTURIES, TO People who could not read or Verify it was Scriptural, and alot of it was NOT Scriptural....BUT HEY.....it Set a long standing Tradition for the Catholic Church.

And so today, YOU can not provide ONE Scriptural Quote that Identifies Mary being SINLESS, let alone, Naturally Born Sinless from her mothers womb....

Why does that not make YOU WONDER, WHY your Church has a LONG History of teaching that concept, when obviously you can READ, but it isn't IN Scripture?

Lastly - it was the CHURCH -and NOT Scripture that told us which Books belong in Sacred Scripture to begin with.

Everyone has the option to READ whatever Scripture has been found and produced in a manner available, regardless of what "your" Church had dictated.

So, doctrines come to us from Scripture both EXPLICITLY and IMPLICITY.

So, Jesus' Doctrine is Available in Scripture, and Mans Doctrine is Available for those Interested to FOLLOW men.

So, INANUTSHELL, you believe Mary was naturally born SINLESS from her Mothers womb....Because that is what Catholics have taught for many years?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Nondenom40]

Yeah, you have yet to prove that at all. All you do is grossly take things out of context or try to force a meaning that clearly is not intended.

His repeated attempts to shove 'sinless' into kecharitomene is tiring. No lexicon translates chaitoo (the lexical form of kecharitomene) as sinless. In fact there is a term in the n.t. for full of grace and its not kecharitomene AND it never occurs in Luke. Mary was favored in verse 28, shes told again shes favored in verse 30. How many times does the angel have to say it before catholics believe it? The angel never corrected himself and said 'oh ya, i misspoke, youre actually sinless, duh my bad.' The only purpose this serves is to elevate a creature above the creator.

 

[brakelite]

a different set of rules for the great cloud of Witnesses in Heb. 12:1 -

Just so you know that people other than Catholics don't take their beliefs from a vacuum between their heads, Paul in his letter explains who these witnesses are a little later in the same chapter, do just for some context...
KJV Hebrews 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

[BreadOfLife]

Understanding Scripture is manifested in TWO WAYS;
From the MINDS of men.
From God Himself.

You do have an uninteresting way of leaning toward putting your Trust in the minds of men when expressing your understanding.

TRI is simply THREE
UNITY is simply ONE UNITED WHOLE

Scripture EXPRESSLY identifies the ONE WHOLE OF GOD, regardless of how many names and titles are references to and of Him.

ONE GOD, with DISTINCT Purposes.

Gods IDEAS/PLANS /WILL are one thing.
Gods WORD Reveals His IDEAS/PLANS/WILL
Gods POWER Effects His WILL.
"The" Church to a Catholic IS the Catholic Church. They should have stuck with Scripture.

The Authoritative ROLE of the CHURCH is to Speak and Teach Gods WORD.

Obviously. They should have stuck with Scripture and Trusted God, without making up nonsense.

2 Thes 2:15
[15] Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Dude, come on... The Traditions in 2 Thes 2:15, being spoken of and TAUGHT, were Jewish "TRADITIONS" from the OT.

You trying to Peddle Catholic "Traditions" is a FAIL.

Absolutely men (particularly Gentiles), secured "high positions" in the early Church, and Preached all kinds of things, FOR CENTURIES, TO People who could not read or Verify it was Scriptural, and alot of it was NOT Scriptural....BUT HEY.....it Set a long standing Tradition for the Catholic Church.

And so today, YOU can not provide ONE Scriptural Quote that Identifies Mary being SINLESS, let alone, Naturally Born Sinless from her mothers womb....

Why does that not make YOU WONDER, WHY your Church has a LONG History of teaching that concept, when obviously you can READ, but it isn't IN Scripture?

Everyone has the option to READ whatever Scripture has been found and produced in a manner available, regardless of what "your" Church had dictated.

So, Jesus' Doctrine is Available in Scripture, and Mans Doctrine is Available for those Interested to FOLLOW men.

So, INANUTSHELL, you believe Mary was naturally born SINLESS from her Mothers womb....Because that is what Catholics have taught for many years?

Glory to God,
Taken

Sooooo, to recap - you refuse to accept that it was the CHURCH who defined the doctrine Trinity at the Council of Nicaea.
History and Scripture disagree with you.

You ALSO believe that Paul and the rest of the Apostles were teaching the Jewish Traditions to the Christian world.
The Council of Jerusalem - and EVERY ONE of Paul's Epistles destroys that foolish notion. You actually know LESS about Scripture than I gave you credit for. 2 Thess 2:15 is about CHRISTIAN Oral Traditions - not Jewish Traditions, Einstein . . .

Finally - your complete blindness prevents you from seeing the obvious: That Scripture teaches us explicitly and implicitly.
This is Christianity 101 . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Just so you know that people other than Catholics don't take their beliefs from a vacuum between their heads, Paul in his letter explains who these witnesses are a little later in the same chapter, do just for some context...
KJV Hebrews 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

The "Great cloud of witnesses" that the author of Hebrews is talking about in Heb. 12:1 is the list of people (and more) that he discussed in Chapter 11 - known as the "Hall of Faith" chapter. These are the great people of faith from the OT who left this world and currently reside in Heaven.

They can SEE and HEAR us. That's what a "witness" does.
In Heb. 12:1, they are told to behave accordingly BECAUSE of these witnesses.

Heb. 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.

 

[Taken]

For what it's worth - I don't think of you as a Calvinist.
Calvinists, for the most part are Christians.

LOL

YOU

, on the other hand deny the basic Christian tenet of faith

No. I believe what Scripture says.
Jesus was a man.

It is human men that teach Jesus was a "HUMAN" man.

Humans are earthly terrestrial men and come from the dust of the Earth.

Scripture teaches ^^ THAT DOES NOT APPLY to Jesus.

that Christ was a human being as well as God . . .

Jesus was a man From Heaven, (not From the Dust of the Earth) and Christ is the POWER of God.

Even Angels were called men...you teach they were Human Beings too?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Sooooo, to recap - you refuse to accept that it was the CHURCH who defined the doctrine Trinity at the Council of Nicaea.

LOL, So the Catholic Church chose to use the word TRINITY? I didn't say otherwise. So what are you talking about?

History and Scripture disagree with you.

QUOTE me and Scripture for what you are claiming.

You ALSO believe that Paul and the rest of the Apostles were teaching the Jewish Traditions to the Christian world.

No, I really would not categorize, the majority of the middle east, then or now, as "the Christian World"...

I believe the Apostles were teaching LOST JEWS Jewish Traditions and the Jewish Messiah...
and Paul was primarily teaching Gentiles about the Jewish God and Jewish Messiah.

What does that have to do with MARY being naturally born SINLESS?

Because I don't find ANY of the Apostles teaching Mary was SINLESS.

The Council of Jerusalem - and EVERY ONE of Paul's Epistles destroys that foolish notion.

What FOOLISH NOTION...??
That Mary was SINLESS from her birth?
Or
You claiming I refused to accept the Catholic Church first used the word Trinity, when I said no such thing?

You actually know LESS about Scripture than I gave you credit for. 2 Thess 2:15 is about CHRISTIAN Oral Traditions - not Jewish Traditions, Einstein . .

Really? Christianity was relatively A NEW TEACHING....so what "TRADITIONS"...had Been Established? LOL

Festivals? Sabbaths? Passover? Pilgrimage to Jerusalem?

Finally - your complete blindness prevents you from seeing the obvious: That Scripture teaches us explicitly and implicitly.
This is Christianity 101 . . .

LOL...IN closing, YOU HAVE NOT ONE SCRIPTURE THAT remotely eludes to your churches made up teaching that Mary was Naturally born Sinless.

You could have skipped all the snarky comments and simply been forthright and plainly said, There is NO Scripture that supports the Belief Mary was naturally born SINLESS.
You believe it because you were taught it.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Philip James]

Paul in his letter explains who these witnesses are a little later in the same chapter, do just for some context...

Hello brakelite,

Why didn't you post the whole list?

and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,

and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel.


Peace!

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL, So the Catholic Church chose to use the word TRINITY? I didn't say otherwise. So what are you talking about?
QUOTE me and Scripture for what you are claiming.

No, I really would not categorize, the majority of the middle east, then or now, as "the Christian World"...

I believe the Apostles were teaching LOST JEWS Jewish Traditions and the Jewish Messiah...
and Paul was primarily teaching Gentiles about the Jewish God and Jewish Messiah.

What does that have to do with MARY being naturally born SINLESS?

Because I don't find ANY of the Apostles teaching Mary was SINLESS.

What FOOLISH NOTION...??
That Mary was SINLESS from her birth?
Or
You claiming I refused to accept the Catholic Church first used the word Trinity, when I said no such thing?

Really? Christianity was relatively A NEW TEACHING....so what "TRADITIONS"...had Been Established? LOL

Festivals? Sabbaths? Passover? Pilgrimage to Jerusalem?

LOL...IN closing, YOU HAVE NOT ONE SCRIPTURE THAT remotely eludes to your churches made up teaching that Mary was Naturally born Sinless.

You could have skipped all the snarky comments and simply been forthright and plainly said, There is NO Scripture that supports the Belief Mary was naturally born SINLESS.
You believe it because you were taught it.

Glory to God,
Taken

WOW.

Every one of your posts is more revealing than the last regarding just how woefully-ignorant you really are.
Time for another Bible lesson . . .

"Traditions" aren't necessarily an event or a day or a practice like festivals or Sabbaths or Passover. The "Traditions" spoken of in 2 Thess 2:15 refer to ORAL TEACHING. Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. puts Sacred Tradition ON PAR with Scripture. Your inability to grasp this is at the core of your confusion.

As for coining the word "Trinity" - that's not what I was talking about.
Pay attention: the Church - NOT Scripture defined the DOCTRINE of the Trinity. She ALSO coined the word.
It is an IMPLICIT teaching of Scripture - not an EXPLICIT one, Einstein. Learn the difference . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL
No. I believe what Scripture says.
Jesus was a man.

It is human men that teach Jesus was a "HUMAN" man.

Humans are earthly terrestrial men and come from the dust of the Earth.

Scripture teaches ^^ THAT DOES NOT APPLY to Jesus.
Jesus was a man From Heaven, (not From the Dust of the Earth) and Christ is the POWER of God.

Even Angels were called men...you teach they were Human Beings too?

Glory to God,
Taken

We already hashed out your heresy regarding your rejection of Christ's Hypostatic Union in another thread
No need to rehash here. Suffice it to say - it is a BASIC tenet of Christianity - and YOU reject it.

 

[reformed1689]

As you have already demonstrated that you have received no authority, your opinions are your own,
I will submit to the correction of 2000 years of my brethren.
You might want to consider humbling yourself and doing the same..

Peace!

I will never humble myself to false teaching. My authority comes from Scripture. Each believer has that same authority to stand against false teaching. YOU are the one who says I have no authority with no basis. You are the one clinging to heresy. God help you.