The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[epostle]

Then let's talk about papal infallibility. Let's talk about purgatory (not found in Scripture), let's talk about Mary being sinless (not found in Scripture), let's talk about any of the other heresies (relics, praying to dead saints, etc etc.)

Yea, lets talk about anything but the false man made, unhistorical, illogical, unbiblical, contradicting, indefensible, unworkable self-refuting stupidity of sola scriptura. You derail because you've lost before you even start.

My judgement of the Roman Catholics to be unorthodox is because they have left the teachings of Scripture. That's all the explanation/reasoning I am going to give.

Posting slogans like that is not explaining anything, nor is it reasonable.

 

[reformed1689]

Yea, lets talk about anything but the false man made, unhistorical, illogical, unbiblical, contradicting, unworkable self-refuting stupidity of sola scriptura. You derail because you've lost before you even start.

I believe I have already dealt with sola scriptura in this forum. Catholics rejected it because of their false doctrine.

 

[Philip James]

My judgement of the Roman Catholics to be unorthodox is because they have left the teachings of Scripture. That's all the explanation/reasoning I am going to give.

I see. So you are claiming that you yourself have the authority to declare what is and is not orthodox.
How did you receive that authority?


They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

Peace!

 

[BreadOfLife]

So the church can make up whatever doctrine it so pleases?

No.
It declares sound doctrine based on Scripture (2 Tim, 3:16) and Sacred Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15).

Christ told the leaders of His Church that WHATEVER they loosed or held bound on earth would be loosed and held bound in Heaven.
He also told them they they would be led to ALL TRUTH by the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15).

If that bothers you - I suggest you take it up with Christ . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I believe I have already dealt with sola scriptura in this forum. Catholics rejected it because of their false doctrine.

No - we reject it because neither YOU nor anybody else has ever been able to show where it is taught in Scripture itself.

Ain't that a hoot??

 

[epostle]

I believe I have already dealt with sola scriptura in this forum.

Then cite the thread title with the post number. Back up your claim, instead of making more empty assertions.

Sola scriptura is unhistorical, illogical, unbiblical, contradicting, indefensible, unworkable, divisive and self-refuting. Yet you demand that I defend Catholic distinctives based on your stupid rules?!? Better hurry and get help from a Protestant expert, they are converting in large numbers.

 

[reformed1689]

I see. So you are claiming that you yourself have the authority to declare what is and is not orthodox.
How did you receive that authority?


They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

Peace!

No, the Bible has that authority.

 

[reformed1689]

No.
It declares sound doctrine based on Scripture (2 Tim, 3:16) and Sacred Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15).

Christ told the leaders of His Church that WHATEVER they loosed or held bound on earth would be loosed and held bound in Heaven.
He also told them they they would be led to ALL TRUTH by the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15).

If that bothers you - I suggest you take it up with Christ . . .

Sound doctrine like purgatory, transubstantiation, sinless Mary, praying to the dead, etc? Oh yeah, so sound.

 

[reformed1689]

Sola scriptura is unhistorical, illogical, unbiblical, contradicting, indefensible, unworkable, divisive and self-refuting. Yet you demand that I defend Catholic distinctives based on your stupid rules?!?

Is Sola Scriptura in the Bible?

 

[Philip James]

No, the Bible has that authority.

The bible speaks to the authority of the Church.

As you have no authority within the Church, you then have no business declaring any communuty unorthodox.

The Nicene Creed has been the standard statement of orthodoxy for 1700 years.
Does your community accept the Ecumenical councils of the bishops of the Church as authoritative?

Peace be with you!

 

[quietthinker]

Please initially respond to these 13 question on the basis of your best instincts rather than from what you perceive the Bible to teach. Subsequently, I will address all 13 questions from a biblical perspective and then you will be encouraged to respond to the cited biblical texts. The questions are relevant to the debate over universal salvation, but this thread is only intended to apply them to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and, more broadly, to the question of ultimate release from Hell. And no, I'm not a Catholic; I'm an Evangelical.

13 PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE POST-MORTEM STATE OF THE DAMMED:

(1) At the moment of postmortem survival, do we retain the same basic moral character that we developed in this life?
(2) Would many carnal Christians be unable to live in a sin-free heavenly realm?
(3) Does Jesus' principle that like attracts like in the afterlife make many professing Christians unsuitable company for the saints in Heaven?
(4) Might not Hell be a realm of both reformative justice and retributive justice?
(5) Because of their secular upbringing or negative life experience, millions of people have heard the Gospel with no conviction that it is true. Is it just to send them to eternal conscious torment because their spiritual intuition is fatally flawed?
(6) Can anyone do enough in our brief sojourn on Earth to merit eternal conscious torment with no chance of postmortem redemption?
(7) If there are multiple Heavens and Hells with different levels, might not continual progress be made from one level to another?
(8) How does the concept of pure unconditional divine love apply to those in eternal conscious postmortem torment?
(9) If denizens of Hell sincerely wanted to repent, rise into God's loving presence, and be spiritually transformed, would a loving God deny them that opportunity?
(10) What keeps sinners in Hell--God, Satan, or the sinners themselves?
(11) Shall the will of an omnipotent God to save everyone be eternally thwarted?
(12) Is it reasonable to assume that no soul retrievals from Hell would ever be attempted?
(13) Could Heaven truly be a realm of bliss for the redeemed if they knew that close family members and other loved ones were confined to eternal conscious torment?

The scripture is clear 'the dead know nothing'
The persistence of trying to splice pagan beliefs into Gods revealed word only fools the fooled.

 

[Taken]

Just for grins, I did a word count on this latest psychotic rant of yours: 1132 words of the usual mindless drivel.
YIKES . . .

A normal person would not simply call another persons post a "psychotic rant", and count the words...BUT Rather would REPLY with things they Agreed or Disagreed with and WHY. You simply choose the copout snarky path to criticize and forgo Agreeing or Disagreeing and stating why.

While amusing, your method is far from Glorifying to God.

The problem here is NOT that you don't understand what the Immaculate Conception is - it's that you simply want to TRY to win an argument

There is NO Argument to be had, when someone such as yourself is afraid to be forthright in clearly stating their belief.

about biology because you can't win the argument

Biology is a branch of science having to do with the study of living organisms.
If I had said something incorrect about the reproduction of Humans, you could have commented in disagreement.
You didn't.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Mary's title of "Kecharitomene" after the last THIRTY or so posts.

Threads, posts, hundreds, whereby you could NOT be forthright.

Now - regardless of the actual scientific explanation of how a child is conceived -

Regardless? Your whole belief of Mary's "supposed" sinlessness begins with Mary's own natural birth, as you have FINALLY after numerous threads and posts, clearly admitted your belief and you fluff that off as insignificant?

As to Mary - she was conceived in the normal way from her mother's fertilized egg -

but she was conceived without sin.

So your teaching IS;
Mary's Human dad's Corrupt SEED, fertalized Mary's Human mother's Corrupt EGG, and that PROCREATED a Baby (named Mary) that was NATURALLY BORN SINNLESS?

LOL...okie dokie.

Can you Share the Scripture that Teaches such a Story? Or will it take another umpteen threads and posts Before you admit, no such Scripture Exists?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[reformed1689]

The bible speaks to the authority of the Church.

The church only has authority when it is faithful to the Scriptures.

 

[Philip James]

The church only has authority when it is faithful to the Scriptures.

The Church has its authority from Christ. It wrote the NT, copied it, spread it, proclaimed it, lived it.

Who are you to claim it is not fithful?

I know from whom the bishops of the Church have received their aurhority.

Whence comes yours?

 

[reformed1689]

The Church has its authority from Christ. It wrote the NT, copied it, spread it, proclaimed it, lived it.

Who are you to claim it is not fithful?

I know from whom the bishops of the Church have received their aurhority.

Whence comes yours?

Scripture

 

[Philip James]

Scripture

Please demonstrate where scripture says David Taylor has any authority in the Church..

Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you

Peace!

 

[reformed1689]

Please demonstrate where scripture says David Taylor has any authority in the Church..

Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you

Peace!

Read Paul's letters. We have a DUTY to preach the word and to rebuke false teachers. If the Church, which is not an organization but the body of Christ, is putting forth false teaching it is every believer's DUTY to rebuke it, not to submit to it.

 

[Philip James]

Read Paul's letters. We have a DUTY to preach the word and to rebuke false teachers. If the Church, which is not an organization but the body of Christ, is putting forth false teaching it is every believer's DUTY to rebuke it, not to submit to it.

The Church, which is indeed the Body of Christ, cannot put forth false teaching. Our Lord promised that the gates of hell would never prevail over it.

She is bound to pass on the Traditions that she received from Christ, through the apostles.

Paul's letters are clear that we are to submit to our presbyters.

It is our duty to submit to their correction. And to preserve the unity of the body.

Those who reject that correction and leave the community to begin communities on their own authority are warned against by John:

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

So then, it is your heterodox opinion, that you yourself, can judge the Church, that must be rejected.

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[reformed1689]

The Church, which is indeed the Body of Christ, cannot put forth false teaching. Our Lord promised that the gates of hell would never prevail over it.

She is bound to pass on the Traditions that she received from Christ, through the apostles.

Paul's letters are clear that we are to submit to our presbyters.

It is our duty to submit to their correction. And to preserve the unity of the body.

Those who reject that correction and leave the community to begin communities on their own authority are warned against by John:

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

So then, it is your heterodox opinion, that you yourself, can judge the Church, that must be rejected.

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

Wow, you really are brainwashed. So if the church, let's just say the Catholic church, preaches that Christ alone is not enough to save and we must do works that we are bound by Scripture to follow that direction? Are you honestly saying that? Because that is not at all what Scripture states. It does not state the church is infallible and should be followed no matter what. IT SAYS TO REBUKE FALSE TEACHING.