The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah you showed a Catholic scholar, and then two others, neither of which say it means, or even has connotations, of sinlessness.

WRONG.

I presented a comprehensive Scriptural argument back in post #1506 that you've been running from ever since and have NOT been able to refute:

Because she is Kecharitomene at the Angel’s greeting - Mary’s sanctification was complete.

To be endowed with grace is ONE thing. You might say that your glass is being filled throughout your lifetime.
Mary is said to be full of grace – perfectly and completely. Therefore, her glass is FULL.
Since the Bible teaches that Mary’s glass is FULL – the endowment of grace has been completed.

1. The Scriptures teach that we are saved by God’s grace.
2. Therefore, to be “full of grace”, is to be saved.
3. Since she is “full of grace”, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).
4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to be holy and live a life free from sin.
5. Hence, to be “full of grace” is to be so holy that one is sinless.
6. So, Mary is holy and sinless.

Refute THAT.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So you can't even interact with those arguments you just put your hands over your eyes. Noted.

Every time I back you into a Scriptural corner - YOU come back with:
"I'm not going to address that!!"
"That's stupid!"
"Red Herring!"

I thought the "See no evil, Hear no evil, Speak no evil" monkeys were the perfect response to your constant cowardly non-answers . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah you showed a Catholic scholar, and then two others, neither of which say it means, or even has connotations, of sinlessness.

Then show me a scholar who disagrees with the scholars I produced.

The ones I produced define Mary's title of "Kecharitomene" in Luke 1:28 as:
"Completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace."
"A completed act with a permanent result."

 

[reformed1689]

Every time I back you into a Scriptural corner - YOU come back with:
"I'm not going to address that!!"
"That's stupid!"
"Red Herring!"

I thought the "See no evil, Hear no evil, Speak no evil" monkeys were the perfect response to your constant cowardly non-answers . . .

Still haven't given an answer. And it is a flat lie to say every time you come at me with Scripture (you have never backed me into a scriptural corner) that I come back with those things.

 

[reformed1689]

WRONG.

I presented a comprehensive Scriptural argument back in post #1506 that you've been running from ever since and have NOT been able to refute:

Because she is Kecharitomene at the Angel’s greeting - Mary’s sanctification was complete.

To be endowed with grace is ONE thing. You might say that your glass is being filled throughout your lifetime.
Mary is said to be full of grace – perfectly and completely. Therefore, her glass is FULL.
Since the Bible teaches that Mary’s glass is FULL – the endowment of grace has been completed.

1. The Scriptures teach that we are saved by God’s grace.
2. Therefore, to be “full of grace”, is to be saved.
3. Since she is “full of grace”, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).
4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to be holy and live a life free from sin.
5. Hence, to be “full of grace” is to be so holy that one is sinless.
6. So, Mary is holy and sinless.

Refute THAT.

Grace and saved does not mean sinless.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah I can't help it if you don't understand simple sentences. You try to twist it left and right to fit Catholic nonsense..

Okay - show me HOW I am wrong in post #1906.
CAN you do tht??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Grace and saved does not mean sinless.

Correct,
Perfectly completed grace means sinless.

That's what Kecharitomene means, Einstein . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Again, nothing about sinlessness.

FULL of grace.
A completed action.
His glass was FULL.
He was sinless at that point.

 

[reformed1689]

Okay - show me HOW I am wrong in post #1906.
CAN you do tht??

Read the verse, It says that Joseph did not know Mary until after she gave birth. It clearly indicates they knew each other at that time. In no way does it even hint that Mary stayed a vigin.

 

[reformed1689]

FULL of grace.
A completed action.
His glass was FULL.
He was sinless at that point.

We are all full of grace when we are saved. That does not make us sinless. We are not completely sanctified at that point.

 

[reformed1689]

Perfectly completed grace means sinless.

Grace and sanctification are not the same thing. Perfectly completed grace does not mean sinless.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Read the verse, It says that Joseph did not know Mary until after she gave birth. It clearly indicates they knew each other at that time. In no way does it even hint that Mary stayed a vigin.

Apparently, you didn't read post #1906.
Here it is again . . .

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us:
Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44):
For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?
Does this verse "clearly indicate" Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?

Deut. 34:6 states in NO uncertain terms that, when Moses died - God buried him:
He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab near Beth Peor, but no one knows his exact burial place UNTIL this very day.
Soooooo, did they find out where Moses was buried??
Does this verse "clearly indicate" that Moses was NOT found??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Grace and sanctification are not the same thing. Perfectly completed grace does not mean sinless.

Okay - explain how one can be sanctified without grace.

Also -those in Heaven are completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace.
Are THEY sinless??

 

[reformed1689]

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us:
Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Actually that verse doesn't say until.

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44):
For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?
Does this verse "clearly indicate" Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?

Actually we know of at least two times that Jesus WILL leave the right hand of the father. Both times are to conquer his enemies. So yes. Though you added cease.

Deut. 34:6 states in NO uncertain terms that, when Moses died - God buried him:
He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab near Beth Peor, but no one knows his exact burial place UNTIL this very day.
Soooooo, did they find out where Moses was buried??
Does this verse "clearly indicate" that Moses was NOT found??

Yeah the word until is not in this verse.

 

[reformed1689]

Okay - explain how one can be sanctified without grace.

I didn't say they could. This is a red herring argument.

 

[reformed1689]

Also -those in Heaven are completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace.
Are THEY sinless??

Yes, but not because of having grace, they are sinless because after being granted grace they began their sanctification and when they departed this life their sanctification was complete. At that time, they were sinless.

 

[BreadOfLife]

We are all full of grace when we are saved. That does not make us sinless. We are not completely sanctified at that point.

Wrong.
We are not COMPLETED in grace. The Holy Spirit sanctifies us throughout our lifetime (Gal. 5:5).

 

[BreadOfLife]

I didn't say they could. This is a red herring argument.

You claimed that grace and sanctification were NOT the same thing.
This is wrong.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, but not because of having grace, they are sinless because after being granted grace they began their sanctification and when they departed this life their sanctification was complete. At that time, they were sinless.

Their sanctification was complete because their endowment of grace was PERFECTLY COMPLETED.
Thank you.

 

[reformed1689]

Their sanctification was complete because their endowment of grace was PERFECTLY COMPLETED.
Thank you.

No I did not say that.