The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

@BreadOfLife Simple question. If Mary was sinless, why did she need a savior? What did she need saved from?

And there you go asking the same stupid question I've answered several times now.
Whenever you lose an argument - you resurrect your moronic question.

Go back and R*E*A*D the answers, beginning with post #1866.

 

[reformed1689]

And there you go asking the same stupid question I've answered several times now.
Whenever you lose an argument - you resurrect your moronic question.

Go back and R*E*A*D the answers, beginning with post #1866.

You said she was saved at conception, but SAVED FROM WHAT?

 

[reformed1689]

Wrong.

As I have educated you several times now - Rom. 3:10-18 is a direct reference to Psalm 14:
Rom. 3:10-12
As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

This is talking about the WICKED - and it indicates Personal Sin - not Original Sin. They have "turned away" and "have become" worthless.
This is not about the state they were born in - but something THEY DID.

Psalm 14:5 states that God is in the company of the RIGHTEOUS.

Yes, and it says that EVERYONE is wicked until they are saved.

 

[reformed1689]

It is implied in Scripture (Luke 1:28) - especially when you take that verse into context with Mary's fulfilling the role of the Ark:

Here we go again. That is not what that word means.

 

[reformed1689]

However, Kecharitomene means that Mary was COMPLETED in grace - perfectly and enduringly.

THAT means sinless . . .

Yeah, there are MANY scholars that do not agree with that. Because it doesn't mean that at all.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It doesn't matter IF Mary and her husband Joseph had children together, or Joseph had previous children with another wife.

Mary and Joseph were Jews.
It was Jewish custom to consumate a marriage on the wedding day, with a sexual relationship between the husband and wife.

WE KNOW, that Joseph and Mary did not consumate their marriage ON THEIR WEDDING DAY.
WE KNOW, Joseph's instruction was to WAIT until AFTER the Birth of JESUS.

Your church corruptly teaches Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin.
Scripture teachs no such thing.

Scripture teaches, Joseph DID have a sexual relation with his wife Mary, AFTER the birth of JESUS.

Matt 1 (KJV)
[25] And knew her not TILL she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Matt 1 (NIV)
[25] But he did not consummate their marriage UNTIL she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.(A)

You attempt to ARGUE Mary having "other" children as IF it is significant. It is irrelevant.

The revelance IS, Mary and Joseph HAD a Sexual relation AFTER Jesus was born... which made Mary, no longer a Virgin!

Glory to God,
Taken

WOW.
Your ignorance is almost as astounding as your arrogance . . .

The Bible doesn't support this idea that Mary ans Joseph consummated their marriage.
Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44):
For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?

Deut. 34:6 states in NO uncertain terms that, when Moses died - God buried him:
He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab near Beth Peor, but no one knows his exact burial place UNTIL this very day.
Soooooo, did they find out where Moses was buried??

The problem here is that you ignorantly attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.

 

[reformed1689]

Stephen was COMPLETED (FULL) in grace at the point of his martyrdom (Acts 7:8).

How in the world do you get that from Acts 7:8??? It says:
And he gave him the covenant of circumcision. And so Abraham became the father of Isaac, and circumcised him on the eighth day, and Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob of the twelve patriarchs. -ESV

 

[reformed1689]

WOW.
Your ignorance is almost as astounding as your arrogance . . .

The Bible doesn't support this idea that Mary ans Joseph consummated their marriage.
Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44):
For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?

Deut. 34:6 states in NO uncertain terms that, when Moses died - God buried him:
He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab near Beth Peor, but no one knows his exact burial place UNTIL this very day.
Soooooo, did they find out where Moses was buried??

The problem here is that you ignorantly attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.

Right, because the word until is always used in the same context. Another stupid post.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Here we go again. That is not what that word means.

Not letting you off this time, Davy - until you address the verses about the Ark.
Kecharitomene, along with the clear context of the verses about the Ark are solid evidence of Mary's Immaculate Conception.

Now - REFUTE this Scripturally . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

How in the world do you get that from Acts 7:8??? It says:
And he gave him the covenant of circumcision. And so Abraham became the father of Isaac, and circumcised him on the eighth day, and Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob of the twelve patriarchs. -ESV

It was a typo.
Acts 6:8.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Right, because the word until is always used in the same context. Another stupid post.

No - that's my point exactly.
"Until" is NOT always used in the same context.

Sometimes, it indicates a subsequent action - and sometimes it doesn't.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah, there are MANY scholars that do not agree with that. Because it doesn't mean that at all.

You haven't produces a SINGLE scholar who "disagrees" with this definition of Kecharitomene.
You've only shown some that don't go into much depth.

On the other hand - I HAVE produced Greek scholars who define it this way:
"Completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace."
"A completed act with a permanent result."

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOOM! There goes this perpetual virgin nonsense out the door! Can't argue with that.

CC: @BreadOfLife

Read post #1906, Einstein . . .

 

[reformed1689]

Not letting you off this time, Davy - until you address the verses about the Ark.
Kecharitomene, along with the clear context of the verses about the Ark are solid evidence of Mary's Immaculate Conception.

Now - REFUTE this Scripturally . . .

First, there is no verse that says there will be a future Ark.
Second, John 1 does not say the "Word of God." It says the Word WAS God. Mary carried God, not the Word of God.
Third, 2 Sam 6:9 and Luke 1:43 have no correlation because Mary is not an Ark.
Fourth, with regard to leaping for joy, again, Mary was not carrying the Word of God so these are not equivalent.
Fifth, Mary and Joseph were not exiled to Egypt. They fled to Egypt but that is not the same thing as exile.

So no, Mary was not a new Ark of the Covenant.

 

[reformed1689]

No - that's my point exactly.
"Until" is NOT always used in the same context.

Sometimes, it indicates a subsequent action - and sometimes it doesn't.

We know from that verse that Joseph waited until Jesus was born to know Mary. It is clear from the context of that verse that they consummated the marriage after the birth of Jesus. We also know Jesus had siblings.

 

[reformed1689]

It was a typo.
Acts 6:8.

Again, nothing about sinlessness.

 

[reformed1689]

Read post #1906, Einstein . . .

Yeah I can't help it if you don't understand simple sentences. You try to twist it left and right to fit Catholic nonsense..

 

[reformed1689]

You haven't produces a SINGLE scholar who "disagrees" with this definition of Kecharitomene.
You've only shown some that don't go into much depth.

On the other hand - I HAVE produced Greek scholars who define it this way:
"Completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace."
"A completed act with a permanent result."

Yeah you showed a Catholic scholar, and then two others, neither of which say it means, or even has connotations, of sinlessness.

 

[BreadOfLife]

First, there is no verse that says there will be a future Ark.
Second, John 1 does not say the "Word of God." It says the Word WAS God. Mary carried God, not the Word of God.
Third, 2 Sam 6:9 and Luke 1:43 have no correlation because Mary is not an Ark.
Fourth, with regard to leaping for joy, again, Mary was not carrying the Word of God so these are not equivalent.
Fifth, Mary and Joseph were not exiled to Egypt. They fled to Egypt but that is not the same thing as exile.

So no, Mary was not a new Ark of the Covenant.

Familiar argument . . .

 

[reformed1689]

Familiar argument . . .

So you can't even interact with those arguments you just put your hands over your eyes. Noted.