The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[Mungo]

Differences can be seen, WHEN one believes something, and explains how they gain or loose according to their beliefs.

What is an indulgence, according to a "catholic"?

A "forgiveness" of a sin?
A "forgiveness" of a "punishment" because of a sin?
Something "different"?

Glory to God,
Taken

Here is the definition from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."
It is therefore not forgiveness of sin because the sins must have already been forgiven.
It is a remission of temporal punishment due to sin not the eternal punishment due to sin.

But that is a separate issue to your seeing the difference between selling and granting.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No need for you to be nasty and snarky, but then you are you and that is your nature.

Since the word "selling" has you all in an uproar, and you being a catholic and more familiar with catholic "indulgences"...

Why not simply explain how a "granted" indulgence becomes applied for a catholic or see if you can give some insight to non-catholics by simply answering yes or no to the following questions.

Are catholics taught;
1) forgiveness of a sin is Given a catholic man by God to the catholic sinner?
2) forgiveness of a sin is Also Given by Priests to the catholic sinner?
3) forgiveness of a sin is Also Given by one catholic man to another man for the other committing a sin against the one catholic man?
4) a catholic must be born again to receive forgiveness of a committed sin?
5) forgiveness of a sin, in any case does not relieve the catholic sinner of punishment for the committed sin?
6) a catholic can become relieved of the "punishment" for a committed sin...
By: performing certain (as prescribed by the catholic church) 'works'?
7) a catholic "in a state of grace" is a catholic ....who believes in God?
....who is forgiven his sins?
8) if a catholic is in a state of grace, and physically dies, he will go to heaven?
9) if a catholic is not in a state of grace, (rejects God) and physically dies, he will go to hell?
10) if a catholic During his physical life-time, did works of charity and/or ever professed to believe in God, while he physically dies (not in a state of grace...for rejecting God, ) he goes to hell...?
11) ...and a catholic in a state of grace (on behalf of the man in hall) can 'pray' to the saints in heaven...?
12) ...and "such" prayers (asking) are for?
...forgiveness of the man in hells disbelief in God?
...forgiveness of the man in hells sins?
...foregoing (relieving) of the man in hells punishment in hell?
13) purgatory is a state of a (physically dead) catholic, who once believed in God, who did charitable works, but physically died, not in a state of grace?
14)prayers offered by a living catholic, (who is in a state of grace,) for another catholic, physically dead, and not in the state of grace, that he (the dead) be;
Given forgiveness?
Given total purification?
Given the state of grace, through total purification?
Given a reprieve from receiving punishment in hell?
Given a place in heaven?
15) all catholics, in a state of grace, (who physically dies)...Must be purified by God, before entering heaven?
16) all catholics, not in a state of grace, (who physically dies) Shall be purified, and then enter heaven?


See if you can help us non-catholics out with simple yes or no answers...you being a expert teacher of catholicism.

Glory to God,
Taken

I'll answer all of these questions as soon as YOU tell me why you chose to LIE about the selling of indulgences "to this day".

Waiting for an answer . . .

 

[Taken]

I'll answer all of these questions as soon as YOU tell me why you chose to LIE about the selling of indulgences "to this day".

Waiting for an answer . . .

I chose to repeat what others have supposed is the Catholic Church accepting money for the Catholic Church granting/giving of indulgences.

If you choose to not answer the guestions, doesn't affect me, and I'll choose to believe what the Catholic Church appears to be doing.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[epostle]

I'll answer all of these questions as soon as YOU tell me why you chose to LIE about the selling of indulgences "to this day".

Waiting for an answer . . .

If they admit that at death a final cleansing of the consequences of sin is necessary, and not for the sin itself, their 500 year old argument collapses. They desperately cling to middle age abuses and corruptions that ceased to exist after the 16th century, that made the Protestant Revolt redundant. Yet they continue to profess myths about indulgences in a feeble attempt to justify their rebellion against the historic Church "to this day".

Purgatory is not about paying the penalty of sin. Jesus on the Cross pays the penalty of our sin -- which is death. Those in purgatory are not in spiritual death; they are all headed to heaven.
Purgatory pays for the "consequences" of our sin, not for the sin itself.
For example, if I throw a rock through your window I have committed a sin. I can become sorry for my sin and go to Confession and be absolved of that sin. Jesus paid the price for my sin. But......... the window is STILL broken. The broken window is the "consequence" of my sin and it still needs to be repaired. The Cross does not repair the window, that is my responsibility.

Thus, one of the aspects of purgatory is to pay for all the metaphorical "broken windows" in our life that we did not get around to paying for during our life on earth.

As to why Purgatory? The answer is love. We cannot enter heaven unless we are perfected and totally holy. While we may die in a state of grace most of us are probably not perfect. Purgatory is a place of perfection. It purges the imperfections from us 'til what is left is pure gold. Purification is not a "second chance".

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is a great definition of Purgatory.

In other words, how well we lived our lives as Christians will be judged, the good works and not-so-good works will be judged.
The not-so-good works are the wood, hay, and straw that will burn up in the purging. The good works are the gold, silver, and precious stone that will survive the purging.

We cannot enter heaven with works that can be consumed. We must enter heaven only with works to our credit that can survive the fire. Thus God, who loves us so, provides a way for us to rid ourselves of the wood, hay, and straw in our lives so that we can enter heaven perfect and holy.
God is all merciful AND all just. A heaven/hell dichotomy ignores the consequences of sin, that are dealt with in this life or the next. A mean god throws people into hell over wood, hay, and straw in our lives. A just God purifies us after death because He loves us, and wants us to be with Him in heaven. Everyone in purgatory is destined for heaven.

The reason some people continue to lie about indulgences is that they have dogmatized the errors of a few men in a very short period in history. They employ a straw man fallacy.

 

[Taken]

Here is the definition from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."
It is therefore not forgiveness of sin because the sins must have already been forgiven.
It is a remission of temporal punishment due to sin not the eternal punishment due to sin.

But that is a separate issue to your seeing the difference between selling and granting.

What is "the temporal punishment due"?
What is "the treasury"

Who forgave the guilt?
Where is guilt forgiven in scripture?

Thank you,
Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Mungo]

What is "the temporal punishment due"?

epostle has answered that above.

What is "the treasury"

The treasury is the store of the merits of merits of Christ and the saints in heaven. That is infinite because Christ'smerits were infinite.
From the Catechism:
"the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy."

Who forgave the guilt?

God

Where is guilt forgiven in scripture?

Really? You don't know that?

Mt 26:28, Mk 1:4, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:43, Col 1:14 to give just a few examples

 

[Mal'ak]

Your comment illustrates the Evangelical penchant for preferring comfort for the constructive doubt created by the need for honest and open inquiry into spiritual truth. Honest skeptical seekers reject the biblical God because they honestly perceive Him to be morally monstrous. The Evangelical request that skeptics give the Gospel an honest hearing requires Evangelicals to avoid the hypocrisy of ignoring what their "best instincts" tell them about the questions posed by the OP. If the "best instincts" of skeptics tell them that the biblical God is immoral, unjust, and unloving, then they are quite justified in their rejection of biblical revelation. So they deserve an honest philosophical answer to their objections that tells them why their negative perception of the biblical God is flawed and why biblical teaching about Heaven and Hell is perfectly just and loving.

Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Complete nonsense; we are told by God to reject philosophy because that is the idea that we as humans can debate and figure out our own salvation without God, humans are all sins from what we think to what we do. That is why we need to study the word of God and pray, so we can build a strong connection with the Holy Spirit to give us the ability to fight the constant sinful pulling of the flesh. People reject the Bible because they do not want to be righteous, or they are too emotionally sensitive to handle the hard truths.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Colossians 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

- This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ and there is NO salvation in Hell.
- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.

If you have a problem with Purgatory – take it up with Christ . . .

Kinda right...kinda wrong...

"Purgatory" as the Catholics call it, is a confused doctrine taken out of context and not properly studied. Now let us start at the base of your doctrine, "- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ and there is NO salvation in Hell." This is a false statement.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The Word of God is very clear that the only way to enter Heaven is through Jesus, because only his sacrifice and blood can cleanse our sins so we are pure enough to enter Heaven. This was true in the Old Testament days too, that is why God created Abraham's bosom where the righteous Jews could "wait" in a type of purgatory in Hell until Jesus died on the cross.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

For those that have not properly studied the Word of God, they do not know where Jesus was after he died for 3 days. But 1 Peter tells us, that after he died he went in the spirit to Hell where he preached to everyone in Abraham's bosom along with everyone that was in bad Hell. Those that believed the Words of Jesus and repented, he brought them out of Hell to Heaven.

"- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification."

This is true, it is called the thousand year reign of Christ on Earth.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When the anti-Christ comes down at the end, he will bring with him everyone from Hell to rule over them on Earth as he will rule over all the living. But when Jesus returns he will lock satan up for a thousand years, during that time the elect which are part of the "first resurrection" of his coming and will rule with Jesus as "Priests" (what do Priests do? teach the Word of God). The "dead" is everyone from Hell and everyone that worshipped satan on Earth, they will be taught for a thousand years by the elect and Jesus. Then satan will be released to "deceive" everyone to follow him and rebel against Christ, this is when the battle of Armageddon will be. After the battle, God the Father will come down on the white throne of Judgement to judge the "dead", since all the elect will already be saved in the first resurrection when Jesus came down the White Throne of Judgement is only for the non-elect that chose Jesus during the thousand years.

There are two "Purgatory", just neither are what the Catholics doctrine:
1. The righteous Jews that died before Jesus became the Lamb of God, waiting in Abraham's bosom.
2. Everyone that did not become Christians after Jesus died will be ruled over and taught during thousand years, given a chance to enter Heaven.

 

[Taken]

epostle has answered that above.

epostle has answered that above.



The treasury is the store of the merits of merits of Christ and the saints in heaven. That is infinite because Christ'smerits were infinite.
From the Catechism:
"the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy."


God


Really? You don't know that?

Mt 26:28, Mk 1:4, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:43, Col 1:14 to give just a few examples

The treasury is the store of the merits of merits of Christ and the saints in heaven. That is infinite because Christ'smerits were infinite.
From the Catechism:
"the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy."


God


Really? You don't know that?

Mt 26:28, Mk 1:4, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:43, Col 1:14 to give just a few examples

Thank you for your non-answer.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[shnarkle]

Please initially respond to these 13 question on the basis of your best instincts rather than from what you perceive the Bible to teach. Subsequently, I will address all 13 questions from a biblical perspective and then you will be encouraged to respond to the cited biblical texts. The questions are relevant to the debate over universal salvation, but this thread is only intended to apply them to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and, more broadly, to the question of ultimate release from Hell. And no, I'm not a Catholic; I'm an Evangelical.

(1) At the moment of postmortem survival, do we retain the same basic moral character that we developed in this life?
No. The moral character we develop in this life is fallen, carnal, hopelessly destined to die.
(2) Would many carnal Christians be unable to live in a sin-free heavenly realm?
Yes they would be unable to live sin free. You pay for sin, you get what you paid for.
(3) Does Jesus' principle that like attracts like in the afterlife make many professing Christians unsuitable company for the saints in Heaven?
No professing Christian is suited for heaven regardless of Jesus' principle.
(4) Might not Hell be a realm of both reformative justice and retributive justice?
No. Hell is for those who are dead. It cannot reform, or punish.
(5) Because of their secular upbringing or negative life experience, millions of people have heard the Gospel with no conviction that it is true. Is it just to send them to eternal conscious torment because their spiritual intuition is fatally flawed?
Those with a flawed spiritual intuition cannot hear the gospel to begin with. Paul says they're "fitted for destruction" which seems to suggest they're designed that way.
(6) Can anyone do enough in our brief sojourn on Earth to merit eternal conscious torment with no chance of postmortem redemption?
No. no one can be damned by their works just as no one can be saved by works.
(7) If there are multiple Heavens and Hells with different levels, might not continual progress be made from one level to another?
Perhaps, but even then it doesn't matter if one level is destroyed. What we read in the texts isn't multiple heavens and hells existing simultaneously, but sequentially.
(8) How does the concept of pure unconditional divine love apply to those in eternal conscious postmortem torment?
They don't. As concepts they can only apply to those who can entertain them in their minds, and the dead cannot think about anything. However while we are in this fallen state which is effectively no different, the concept is also just as useless. Praxis is necessary.
(9) If denizens of Hell sincerely wanted to repent, rise into God's loving presence, and be spiritually transformed, would a loving God deny them that opportunity?
The occupants of hell don't want anything, but if they did, it still wouldn't matter as repentance is a gift that only God gives according to his own will. It has nothing to do with what we want.
(10) What keeps sinners in Hell--God, Satan, or the sinners themselves?
The sinners themselves
(11) Shall the will of an omnipotent God to save everyone be eternally thwarted?
No.
(12) Is it reasonable to assume that no soul retrievals from Hell would ever be attempted?
The world we live in is ruled by Satan. We're born into a world that is already dead; we're essentially still born. God retrieves us from this fallen hell, but when the body dies and is buried, there is no retrieval.
(13) Could Heaven truly be a realm of bliss for the redeemed if they knew that close family members and other loved ones were confined to eternal conscious torment?
Yes, and the reason is not just because God is just but because that's where they want to be.

 

[Enoch111]

Yet they continue to profess myths about indulgences in a feeble attempt to justify their rebellion against the historic Church "to this day".

Are you denying that indulgences are not being offered by the RCC today? Looks like you don't know your own doctrine.

​

This booklet has been written by a Roman Catholic priest, not a Protstant minister. Here is how he starts off:
In this booklet I hope to prove to you that Indulgences are indeed still in use in the Church today. Too many Catholics are not aware of this. It would appear that in the Church today a veil of silence has been cast over the ancient and yet modern practice of indulgences. The fact that very few priests ever preach or write about indulgences confuses the average Catholic, and even the priests who do write about indulgences sometimes add to the confusion...

...I will use as my authority the same document that the columnist used, namely, Pope Paul VI's Apostolic Constitution on the Doctrine of Indulgences published in 1967. In that document Pope Paul tells us that the use of indulgences started back in apostolic times and is still in use today. He wrote: "The Church also in our days then invites all its sons to ponder and meditate well on how the use of indulgences benefits their lives and indeed all Christian society."...

...Since from Rome we get the clear message that indulgences are still an important part of a Catholic's spiritual life, and since so many Catholics are unaware of this, the purpose of this writing is to convince you Catholics that it is time for you to begin or to return to the practice of using indulgences.

I write this especially for you Legionaries of Mary with the hope that you will read it carefully and find that the use of indulgences can be an additional means for your personal sanctification. To you Legionaries who practice the DeMontfort Way to sanctity I will show how through the practice of indulgences you can double the amount of spiritual goods you give to Jesus through Mary every day...

INDULGENCES: ARE THEY STILL IMPORTANT?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I chose to repeat what others have supposed is the Catholic Church accepting money for the Catholic Church granting/giving of indulgences.

If you choose to not answer the guestions, doesn't affect me, and I'll choose to believe what the Catholic Church appears to be doing.

Glory to God,
Taken

No, YOU chose to perpetuate a LIE I stead of doing your homework.
That's your usual M.O. . . .

 

[Mungo]

Thank you for your non-answer.

Glory to God,
Taken

You're welcome.
If you read the first 20-30 posts it has all been explained already.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Are you denying that indulgences are not being offered by the RCC today? Looks like you don't know your own doctrine.

View attachment 7659
​

This booklet has been written by a Roman Catholic priest, not a Protstant minister. Here is how he starts off:
In this booklet I hope to prove to you that Indulgences are indeed still in use in the Church today. Too many Catholics are not aware of this. It would appear that in the Church today a veil of silence has been cast over the ancient and yet modern practice of indulgences. The fact that very few priests ever preach or write about indulgences confuses the average Catholic, and even the priests who do write about indulgences sometimes add to the confusion...

...I will use as my authority the same document that the columnist used, namely, Pope Paul VI's Apostolic Constitution on the Doctrine of Indulgences published in 1967. In that document Pope Paul tells us that the use of indulgences started back in apostolic times and is still in use today. He wrote: "The Church also in our days then invites all its sons to ponder and meditate well on how the use of indulgences benefits their lives and indeed all Christian society."...

...Since from Rome we get the clear message that indulgences are still an important part of a Catholic's spiritual life, and since so many Catholics are unaware of this, the purpose of this writing is to convince you Catholics that it is time for you to begin or to return to the practice of using indulgences.

I write this especially for you Legionaries of Mary with the hope that you will read it carefully and find that the use of indulgences can be an additional means for your personal sanctification. To you Legionaries who practice the DeMontfort Way to sanctity I will show how through the practice of indulgences you can double the amount of spiritual goods you give to Jesus through Mary every day...

INDULGENCES: ARE THEY STILL IMPORTANT?

NOBODY is denying that Indulgences exist.
We are simply exposing the lie that they are for SALE.

Enough with the lies already . . .

 

[Mungo]

Are you denying that indulgences are not being offered by the RCC today? Looks like you don't know your own doctrine.

View attachment 7659
​

This booklet has been written by a Roman Catholic priest, not a Protstant minister. Here is how he starts off:
In this booklet I hope to prove to you that Indulgences are indeed still in use in the Church today. Too many Catholics are not aware of this. It would appear that in the Church today a veil of silence has been cast over the ancient and yet modern practice of indulgences. The fact that very few priests ever preach or write about indulgences confuses the average Catholic, and even the priests who do write about indulgences sometimes add to the confusion...

...I will use as my authority the same document that the columnist used, namely, Pope Paul VI's Apostolic Constitution on the Doctrine of Indulgences published in 1967. In that document Pope Paul tells us that the use of indulgences started back in apostolic times and is still in use today. He wrote: "The Church also in our days then invites all its sons to ponder and meditate well on how the use of indulgences benefits their lives and indeed all Christian society."...

...Since from Rome we get the clear message that indulgences are still an important part of a Catholic's spiritual life, and since so many Catholics are unaware of this, the purpose of this writing is to convince you Catholics that it is time for you to begin or to return to the practice of using indulgences.

I write this especially for you Legionaries of Mary with the hope that you will read it carefully and find that the use of indulgences can be an additional means for your personal sanctification. To you Legionaries who practice the DeMontfort Way to sanctity I will show how through the practice of indulgences you can double the amount of spiritual goods you give to Jesus through Mary every day...

INDULGENCES: ARE THEY STILL IMPORTANT?

No-one has denied that Indulgences are in use today.
But they are not sold.

This is just another attempt by you to lie about the Catholic Church.

 

[epostle]

Again the FIRST PART OF THE VERSE

The first part of the verse does not apply to those on earth. The first 3 verses clearly shows that it applies to the living after all have left this earth.
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had ceased to exist, and the sea existed no more.

There are no tears in heaven, and their is no forgiveness in hell. You offer no reasonable explanation of where they are before God wipes away their tears. Instead, you dissect a single verse with tweezers and a microscope.

Context is your enemy.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Complete nonsense; we are told by God to reject philosophy because that is the idea that we as humans can debate and figure out our own salvation without God, humans are all sins from what we think to what we do. That is why we need to study the word of God and pray, so we can build a strong connection with the Holy Spirit to give us the ability to fight the constant sinful pulling of the flesh. People reject the Bible because they do not want to be righteous, or they are too emotionally sensitive to handle the hard truths.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Colossians 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.




Kinda right...kinda wrong...

"Purgatory" as the Catholics call it, is a confused doctrine taken out of context and not properly studied. Now let us start at the base of your doctrine, "- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ and there is NO salvation in Hell." This is a false statement.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The Word of God is very clear that the only way to enter Heaven is through Jesus, because only his sacrifice and blood can cleanse our sins so we are pure enough to enter Heaven. This was true in the Old Testament days too, that is why God created Abraham's bosom where the righteous Jews could "wait" in a type of purgatory in Hell until Jesus died on the cross.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

For those that have not properly studied the Word of God, they do not know where Jesus was after he died for 3 days. But 1 Peter tells us, that after he died he went in the spirit to Hell where he preached to everyone in Abraham's bosom along with everyone that was in bad Hell. Those that believed the Words of Jesus and repented, he brought them out of Hell to Heaven.

"- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification."

This is true, it is called the thousand year reign of Christ on Earth.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When the anti-Christ comes down at the end, he will bring with him everyone from Hell to rule over them on Earth as he will rule over all the living. But when Jesus returns he will lock satan up for a thousand years, during that time the elect which are part of the "first resurrection" of his coming and will rule with Jesus as "Priests" (what do Priests do? teach the Word of God). The "dead" is everyone from Hell and everyone that worshipped satan on Earth, they will be taught for a thousand years by the elect and Jesus. Then satan will be released to "deceive" everyone to follow him and rebel against Christ, this is when the battle of Armageddon will be. After the battle, God the Father will come down on the white throne of Judgement to judge the "dead", since all the elect will already be saved in the first resurrection when Jesus came down the White Throne of Judgement is only for the non-elect that chose Jesus during the thousand years.

There are two "Purgatory", just neither are what the Catholics doctrine:
1. The righteous Jews that died before Jesus became the Lamb of God, waiting in Abraham's bosom.
2. Everyone that did not become Christians after Jesus died will be ruled over and taught during thousand years, given a chance to enter Heaven.

So many things are wrong with this post that it is difficult to know just where to begin.

Since we are talking about Purgatory – I will leave out the objections to your perversions regarding an “earthly” Heaven or supposed “1000 year earthly reign”. We can save that error for another thread . . .

NOTHING about Final Purification denies the sufficiency of Christ’s blood. It is ONLY through His sacrifice that this purification is possible in the first place. It’s NOT His sacrifice “PLUS” Purgatory.

As for the function of a priest – you are wrong. A priest, by definition is one who offers SACRIFICE.

In the Old Testament, there were three levels of Priests: Aaron, the High Priest, the Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood, and the rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests: Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25), the Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15) and the general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just as with all New Testament fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more glorious than the Old Testament type.

Finally, in the Epistle of Jude, we read the warning about those who would usurp Church Authority by assuming the ministerial priesthood without the Church’s consent (Jude 1:11). In this passage he compares them to the rebellion of Korah and their subsequent punishment (Numbers 16:1-35, 31:16).

 

[Taken]

No, YOU chose to perpetuate a LIE I stead of doing your homework.
That's your usual M.O. . . .

Your usual MO is to speak for others then call them liars when they do not agree with what you have said For them.

It is obvious you simply parrot what you have been taught regarding catholic traditions without a clue of such traditions being Scriptural.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

You're welcome.
If you read the first 20-30 posts it has all been explained already.

FYI...Jesus Himsef asked questions He already knew the answers to the questions.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your usual MO is to speak for others then call them liars when they do not agree with what you have said For them.

It is obvious you simply parrot what you have been taught regarding catholic traditions without a clue of such traditions being Scriptural.

Glory to God,
Taken

Parrot, what, exactly??

The historical fact is that Indulgences are not sold by the Catholic Church and this practice was NEVER sanctioned by the Church.
You're just angry because I exposed your LIE about claiming the Church did - and STILL does sell them.

 

[Taken]

Those in purgatory are not in spiritual death; they are all headed to heaven.

What is it you believe is "In purgatory" after a physical Death?
The body?
The soul?
The Spirit?

For example, if I throw a rock through your window I have committed a sin.

According to What...is that a sin?

I can become sorry for my sin and go to Confession

If you were sorry, why would you go to confession instead of going to the persons whose window you broke and confess and apologize to him?

and be absolved of that sin.

Again according to WHAT made that a sin?

Jesus paid the price for my sin.

For What sin did Jesus pay your price?

Throwing rocks through windows?

But......... the window is STILL broken.

Yes. And when you Trespass against another your Consequence is to pay for the damages you caused.

The broken window is the "consequence" of my sin and it still needs to be repaired.

Correct.
And IF you do not offer or willingly pay for the repair, legal actions may require payments or further consequences.
Or ultimately your works burned.

The Cross does not repair the window, t

hat is my responsibility.

Correct.
The Cross covers sin against God.

Thus, one of the aspects of purgatory is to pay for all the metaphorical "broken windows" in our life that we did not get around to paying for during our life on earth.

So purgatory is for...
The unresolved consequences of:
A mans sin against God?
A mans sin against man?
Or both?

As to why Purgatory?

The answer is love. We cannot enter heaven unless we are perfected and totally holy. While we may die in a state of grace most of us are probably not perfect. Purgatory is a place of perfection. It purges the imperfections from us 'til what is left is pure gold. Purification is not a "second chance".

Is this to say Christ's Works within a Converted man...does not make the man yet Whole?

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is a great definition of Purgatory.

1Cor 3:12-15
[12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

In other words, how well we lived our lives as Christians will be judged, the good works and not-so-good works will be judged.
The not-so-good works are the wood, hay, and straw that will burn up in the purging. The good works are the gold, silver, and precious stone that will survive the purging.

Agree works are Judged.

YOU began by saying those (NOT YET noted if that is body, soul, spirit), who have committed sin...and been forgiven...but then give a Scripture about Works.

We cannot enter heaven with works that can be consumed.

Why not?
IOW, is it your position no part (body soul spirit) of a man has entered heaven?

What is your position on...the day...in verse 13?

Are (whatever...body,soul,spirit, don't know ...you didn't say)...regularly being "Purified" by fire and then rise to heaven?

We must enter heaven only with works to our credit that can survive the fire.

Why?

Thus God, who loves us so, provides a way for us to rid ourselves of the wood, hay, and straw in our lives so that we can enter heaven perfect and holy.

Yes God provides us a way for our soul and spirit to enter heaven, that He called Salvation and Born Again (Quickened) And a way for our body to be Cleansed and Sanctified and Resurrected UP from its mortal state to an incorruptable immortal state, called being raised in Glory.

Is it your position...A saved soul and quickened spirit is denied entrance to heaven Until After the works Of the man are Judged?

If so, what is the saved soul and quickened spirit doing? Where are they?

God is all merciful AND all just.

.

All merciful? God gives mercy and can withhold mercy.
Rom 9
[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

All Just? Yes God is Just. All men will be given what their "Heart" desires. And not all "hearts" desire God.

A heaven/hell dichotomy ignores the consequences of sin, that are dealt with in this life or the next.

Disagree.

A mean god throws people into hell over wood, hay, and straw in our lives.

Disagree.

A just God purifies us after death because He loves us, and wants us to be with Him in heaven. Everyone in purgatory is destined for heaven.

Scripture teaches a Converted man BECOMES Converted while Alive in his Flesh Body. Scripture also teaches a Converted man is made WHOLE.

The reason some people continue to lie about indulgences is that they have dogmatized the errors of a few men in a very short period in history. They employ a straw man fallacy.

If you do not understand a Converted man is made WHOLE, and instead speak of a mans Works keeping him From Heaven, until his works are burned, "he" is then purified and suitable to go to heaven...does that make you a liar?

If I simply call your understanding a straw man Belief, does that make you a liar?

I don't agree with much you and particularly BOL says concerning spiritual beliefs. BOL inparticularly has a Habit of Speaking for others, things the other did not say...which is being a liar.

Glory to God,
Taken