The End of the Mosaic Age

[ewq1938]

They “Shall kill you”

See Herod who killed James Acts 12:1-2
Peter was crucified 2 Peter 1:14 ??? (tradition)
Paul was executed 2 Tim 4:8 ??? (tradition has him beheaded in Rome)
John banished Rev 1:9

F2F

Guess the point failed on this one with John not being killed.

 

[face2face]

Guess the point failed on this one with John not being killed.

I'm not dogmatic on the death of the Apostles as "most" had an unpleasant end.

 

[Earburner]

Greetings!

Matthew 24:1 Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings. 2 And he said to them, “Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!”

View attachment 34115

After some lengthy and unprofitable discussions with Truth7t7, I figure I would use that experience to benefit others in the forum.

Context is everything, so when we are studying Scripture we must always look for the story!

This prophecy opens up with Jesus having denounced their hypocrisy in Matthew 23, he leaves the temple for the last time.

You will notice the View attachment 34114 on the Lords words in Matt 23:38 “your house”

"Look, your house is left to you desolate!" God has left it long ago, just needed the Son of God to inform them what comes next!

The Temple Buildings must have been an impressive sight in Christ's day. Their admiration of its material splendour was straight after the widows’ two mites!!! (You can see the issue - connection?!)

Mark 12:41-44

41 And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. 43 And he called his disciples to him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. 44 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”

The disciples looking at the permanent (huge) structure!! must have thought "what did he mean “left desolate?”

Luke 21:5

And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble (goodly) stones and offerings (gifts), he said,

“Goodly stones and gifts” Grk. for “gift” is “anthema”!!

The Temple was devoted for the purpose of receiving money! And boy did they exploit its beautiful qualities.

We will work though the whole of Matthew 24.

Look forward to chatting with you all.

Spiritually speaking, Jesus was using the temple building and it's coming desolation in 70AD, as an analogy to our physical bodies being void of God's indwelling presence. Many have misconstrued the understanding of KJV Daniel 9:24-27 so badly, that their prophetic understanding has gone over the cliff into vain imaginations and darkness. They then carry it over into the book of Revelation, about a supposed "The" Antichrist committing "the abomination that maketh desolate" Dan. 12:11.
When Jesus spoke of Dan. 12:11 in Mat. 24:15, it was in reference to His ownself (John 2:19-20) and just exactly who it was that was going to perform the abomination of desolation (AoD)

Here is what Jesus was pointing to, of who it would be that shall commit the AoD, and to whom it would be done to. Prov. 6
[16] These SIX things doth the LORD hate: yea, SEVEN are an abomination unto him:
[17]
1. A proud look,
2. a lying tongue, and
7. hands that shed innocent blood,
[18]
3. An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
4. feet that be swift in running to mischief,
[19]
5. A false witness that speaketh lies, and
6. he that soweth discord among brethren.
God literally called out six abominations, but then interjected, emphasizing the seventh.

Jesus Himself was of innocent blood!!
Was it the Romans that committed Jesus to death? Absolutely not! Pilate washed his hands of the whole affair.

But, we KNOW who didn't wash their hands, in fact they actually invited God's curse upon themselves, saying: Mat. 27
[24] When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
[25] Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

NOW you know who it was that committed the seventh abomination against God. "The Abomination of Desolation" of God's Temple of His indwelling, who IS Jesus, through the veil of His flesh.

 

[WPM]

Greetings!

Matthew 24:1 Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings. 2 And he said to them, “Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!”

View attachment 34115

After some lengthy and unprofitable discussions with Truth7t7, I figure I would use that experience to benefit others in the forum.

Context is everything, so when we are studying Scripture we must always look for the story!

This prophecy opens up with Jesus having denounced their hypocrisy in Matthew 23, he leaves the temple for the last time.

You will notice the View attachment 34114 on the Lords words in Matt 23:38 “your house”

"Look, your house is left to you desolate!" God has left it long ago, just needed the Son of God to inform them what comes next!

The Temple Buildings must have been an impressive sight in Christ's day. Their admiration of its material splendour was straight after the widows’ two mites!!! (You can see the issue - connection?!)

Mark 12:41-44

41 And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. 43 And he called his disciples to him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. 44 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”

The disciples looking at the permanent (huge) structure!! must have thought "what did he mean “left desolate?”

Luke 21:5

And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble (goodly) stones and offerings (gifts), he said,

“Goodly stones and gifts” Grk. for “gift” is “anthema”!!

The Temple was devoted for the purpose of receiving money! And boy did they exploit its beautiful qualities.

We will work though the whole of Matthew 24.

Look forward to chatting with you all.

So, is the end of this "Mosaic Age" the end of the old covenant in your view?​

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not dogmatic on the death of the Apostles as "most" had an unpleasant end.

They didn't accomplish all the things Jesus described so he wasn't talking about them although shadows of prophecies happen but are not the actual fulfillment of prophecy.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This didn't happen especially the end coming. No end took place but one is coming, when literally the gospel will be preached globally during the GT.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

None of this happened either. No second coming, no gathering of the saints. The saints died and did not see the second coming, the end, nor a global preaching of the gospel.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation of the first century did pass and they didn't see "all these things" proving he was speaking of a future generation.

 

[face2face]

They didn't accomplish all the things Jesus described so he wasn't talking about them although shadows of prophecies happen but are not the actual fulfillment of prophecy.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This didn't happen especially the end coming. No end took place but one is coming, when literally the gospel will be preached globally during the GT.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

None of this happened either. No second coming, no gathering of the saints. The saints died and did not see the second coming, the end, nor a global preaching of the gospel.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation of the first century did pass and they didn't see "all these things" proving he was speaking of a future generation.

We are up to verse 9 ewq...can you wait till be get there? All will be revealed!
Interesting no-one has challenged the work so far.
F2F

 

[ewq1938]

Interesting no-one has challenged the work so far.

You are living in an imaginary world.

 

[face2face]

You are living in an imaginary world.

Like I said - if you are futurist, you have nothing to offer - its all "unknown" to you - the principles and it's historical significance.

 

[face2face]

They didn't accomplish all the things Jesus described so he wasn't talking about them although shadows of prophecies happen but are not the actual fulfillment of prophecy.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This didn't happen especially the end coming. No end took place but one is coming, when literally the gospel will be preached globally during the GT.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

None of this happened either. No second coming, no gathering of the saints. The saints died and did not see the second coming, the end, nor a global preaching of the gospel.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation of the first century did pass and they didn't see "all these things" proving he was speaking of a future generation.

If you go back you will see I clearly stated a "latter day" application is found within this chapter - but if you are unable to see the fulfillment of AD70 in the first 29 verses you are lost!

 

[face2face]

So, is the end of this "Mosaic Age" the end of the old covenant in your view?​

Technically, you could say the OT covenant ended when the Master died and was raised, however the Apostles deem its end as "these last days" to imply certain events would take place before the very last day/times were fulfilled.

20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), 1 Pe 1:20–21.

 

[face2face]

@WPM I also think this is what is implied here:

But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Heb 9:26–28.

He was publicly revealed for Israel as the final sacrifice to put away sin! The age of Law was no more!

F2F

 

[face2face]

We have had a few interactions on when precisely was the end of the Mosaic age and my first impressions was at the death of Christ; then I looked and noticed how the Apostles referenced "these last days" as to imply there was a period of time before the terrible day when Jerusalem would be ransacked.

However, the Lords words here are very insightful:

“The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.” (Luke 16:16-17)

This would make sense as the preaching of the Kingdom of God and the name by which one must enter was first preached by Christ himself and therefore upon belief of that message one could be saved even though the sacrifice was yet to ratify the promises in him.

We are always learning!

F2F

 

[Earburner]

No one dares to comment on my post #103.
Why is that?

Ans. The revelation of God's truth is in it, but it doesn't fit with the narrative of "church-ianity" and all it's false doctrines, through "the wisdom of men". 1 Cor. 2:5.

So then, for that, I suggest that all here read and digest John 5
[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[face2face]

No one dares to comment on my post #103.
Why is that?

Ans. The revelation of God's truth is in it, but it doesn't fit with the narrative of "church-ianity" and all it's false doctrines, through "the wisdom of men". 1 Cor. 2:5.

So then, for that, I suggest that all here read and digest John 5
[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Sorry, I missed that post. I liked your Prov 6 quote - thought that was a good one!

 

[face2face]

Matthew 24:10

And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another

Every verse is packed full of Historical evidence that points to the sad end of the nation of Israel. They would “Betray one another”, the factional fights between Zealots and Sicarri - unbelieving Jews stir up trouble Acts 13:50; 14:19; 17:5; 18:6 Nb 1 Thess 2:14-16

14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last! 1 Th 2:13–16.

We know the end of the Gentile age will see the world filling up their measure of sin so it cannot be said that Israel acted alone in persecuting the Son of God and his people.

Our time is coming!

For the Jews its was a horrendous time for families - Christ introduced a sword not peace and the hatred leading up to that AD70 must have been devastating on its people. Did they heed Christ's warnings?

No!

Wrath is coming again, though many Christians do not know upon whom.

F2F

 

[face2face]

12 And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. 13 And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Mk 13:12–13.

Betrayal by family members

5 Put no trust in a neighbor; have no confidence in a friend; guard the doors of your mouth from her who lies in your arms; 6 for the son treats the father with contempt, the daughter rises up against her mother, the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man’s enemies are the men of his own house. 7 But as for me, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me. Mic 7:5–7.

Not until you are in the midst of this would you realize it was too late.

F2F

 

[Randy Kluth]

Greetings!

Matthew 24:1 Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings. 2 And he said to them, “Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!”

This prophecy opens up with Jesus having denounced their hypocrisy in Matthew 23, he leaves the temple for the last time.

I will try to make this brief. I've been discussing these things for a long time, and I've unfortunately held to a number of different positions over the last several decades. I feel more confident in my positions now, though I'm always open to scrutiny and correction.

The Olivet Discourse centers on the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. I don't know anybody who can get around that? The idea that Jesus spoke of this destruction in the temple area, and then ignored it a short while later up on the Mt. of Olives is absurd to me.

Jesus referred to the prophecy of Daniel, 9.26-27, as a reference for this event. Though Dan 9 is a bit difficult, when put together with what Jesus said on the Mt. of Olives, it seems easier to understand.

Again, the temple and Jerusalem are going to suffer desolation. And it will be by the "people of the ruler to come," aka the army of the Roman leader. Jesus said as much in Luke 21, where he said that an army would surround Jerusalem, in preparation to desolate the temple.

What confused the Disciples was their expectation that Messiah was prophesied to bring salvation to Israel. But here, Jesus is indicating he would not bring salvation, but judgment to Israel. And so, they asked him about the coming of Messiah to save Israel. And Jesus indicated that these events must precede the salvation to come.

Short and sweet.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I will add just this. There were many very specific prophecies in the OT that identified what would happen to nations for their transgressions and for their idolatry. The Olivet Discourse was in the same vein a prophecy against Israel for their failure to obey the righteousness of Christ and for rejecting him as their Messiah. In rejecting Christ they not only sinned as a people, but they also destroyed any hope of continuation in a covenant relationship with God. The Son was, in fact, God!

So when Jesus spoke of the future of Israel, the nation, and of their religious system under temple law, it was a very specific prophecy given to a specific nation to be fulfilled later in Jesus' own generation. This does not mean that questions about his 2nd Coming had to be fulfilled in his generation, but only that the main question being asked about--the fall of the temple--would be fulfilled in that very generation.

And so, when asked about when this fall of the temple would happen, Jesus began by speaking of the things that would lead up to it. It would sort of prepare Jesus' Disciples for this impending disastrous event.

Jesus said there would be preliminary birth pangs, or signs, of this coming destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. It would include those who would deny judgment is coming altogether--false Christs and false Prophets declaring that salvation, instead of judgment, was imminent. Many Jews, including the Disciples themselves, expected imminent salvation for the nation. But Jesus denied this.

Other signs of the impending ordeal were various natural calamities, like earthquakes and sea storms. There would also be great lawlessness and apostasy among the Jewish People, leading to a persecution of righteous believers. These sins indeed were what would lead to the judgment of 70 AD.

As to when Jesus would bring his salvation, Jesus only warned against any preliminary claim to a coming of the Kingdom. Until that time the world would be marked by satanic evils, and the corruptions of man. The Kingdom would truly be known when evil is conquered and the Kingdom itself becomes visible on earth through a change of leadership. Jesus' coming would somehow become visible on earth and lightning shining from east to west. It will not be some cult or Christian fad claiming to represent an invincible religious power.

Before Christ comes the calamities that Israel saw will be seen in all nations, as the Gospel is preached everywhere. And as we know now, many nations have become "nations of God," as Israel was, and are now falling into the same trap that Israel did. They are falling into immorality, idolatry, and apostasy. The Olivet Discourse is being relived in our own generation.

 

[ewq1938]

The Olivet Discourse centers on the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.

Except Christ does not mention the temple one single time in any accounts of the OD. How does one "center" on something never mentioned?

At the temple Christ speaks about the destruction of the temple but does not say the entire city would be destroyed. On the mount (the actual OD) he doesn't mention the temple at all.

In corresponding passages of same timeframe in Rev, there is no destruction of temple or city. The only destruction of Jerusalem is partial and from an earthquake.

Then of course the fact that building remained standing after 70AD, and some stones still stand upon another to this day means 70AD was not what Jesus spoke about that day not before the OD, not during the OD, not after the OD.

 

[face2face]

Except Christ does not mention the temple one single time in any accounts of the OD. How does one "center" on something never mentioned?

At the temple Christ speaks about the destruction of the temple but does not say the entire city would be destroyed. On the mount (the actual OD) he doesn't mention the temple at all.

In corresponding passages of same timeframe in Rev, there is no destruction of temple or city. The only destruction of Jerusalem is partial and from an earthquake.

Then of course the fact that building remained standing after 70AD, and some stones still stand upon another to this day means 70AD was not what Jesus spoke about that day not before the OD, not during the OD, not after the OD.

Maybe you should reread the Olivet Prophecy?