The End of the Mosaic Age

[face2face]

Even easier for you to. History is on my side because certain events are too unique and specific to have ever happened before.

So the Four Horsemen - what do they represent and how would believers living in AD100 or thereabouts know of their fulfilment?

 

[ewq1938]

This is laughable as you are yet to provide one!

Of course I have. The two prophets have not died, lay in the street for 3.5 days, resurrected from the dead and risen into heaven in front of their enemies. None of that has happened and the same day they rise into heaven is when Christ returns, also not something that has happened.

 

[face2face]

Of course I have. The two prophets have not died, lay in the street for 3.5 days, resurrected from the dead and risen into heaven in front of their enemies. None of that has happened and the same day they rise into heaven is when Christ returns, also not something that has happened.

Ah you are speaking about Rev 11 now - different age and time period than the horse period. By now I'm sure you are starting to doubt how all these chapters referring to different events can be packed into such a far off short time period

 

[face2face]

I'll give you some hints. The horses are all different colours which represents something to do with the historical time they were revealed. Each seal suffered from different levels of persecution! Remember Revelation is an unfolding vision of God working through the Christian age - Judaism is in the rear view mirror and now a new threat to Christ's body is in the earth.

 

[Johann]

I'll give you some hints. The horses are all different colours which represents something to do with the historical time they were revealed. Each seal suffered from different levels of persecution! Remember Revelation is an unfolding vision of God working through the Christian age - Judaism is in the rear view mirror and now a new threat to Christ's body is in the earth.

CONSISTENCY AND BALANCE
It must be said that the different schools of modern eschatological interpretation all contain half truths.

They explain and interpret well some texts. The problem lies in consistency and balance. Often there is a set of presuppositions which use the biblical text to fill in the pre-set theological skeleton.

The Bible does not reveal a logical, chronological, systematic eschatology. It is like a family album. The pictures are true, but not always in order, in context, in a logical sequence. Some of the pictures have fallen out of the album and later generations of family members do not know exactly how to put them back.

The key to proper interpretation of Revelation is the intent of the original author as revealed in his choice of literary genre.

Most interpreters try to carry their exegetical tools and procedures from other genres of the NT into their interpretations of Revelation. They focus on the OT instead of allowing the teachings of Jesus and Paul to set the theological structure and let Revelation act as illustrative.

The level of controversy the interpretation of this book has caused and continues to cause among God's people.

I love God's revelation. It is true when all men are liars (cf. Rom. 3:4)! Please use this commentary as an attempt to be thought provoking and not definitive, as a sign post and not a road map, as a "what if," not a "thus says the Lord."


I have come face to face with my own inadequacies, biases, and theological agenda. I have also seen those of other interpreters. It almost seems that people find in Revelation what they expect to find. The genre lends itself to abuse!

However, it is in the Bible for a purpose. Its placement as the concluding "word" is not by accident. It has a message from God to His children of each and every generation. God wants us to understand! Let us join hands, not form camps; let us affirm what is clear and central, not all that may be, might be, could be true. God help us all!

Good luck.
J.

 

[Johann]

I'll give you some hints. The horses are all different colours which represents something to do with the historical time they were revealed. Each seal suffered from different levels of persecution! Remember Revelation is an unfolding vision of God working through the Christian age - Judaism is in the rear view mirror and now a new threat to Christ's body is in the earth.

CONSISTENCY AND BALANCE
It must be said that the different schools of modern eschatological interpretation all contain half truths.

They explain and interpret well some texts. The problem lies in consistency and balance. Often there is a set of presuppositions which use the biblical text to fill in the pre-set theological skeleton. The Bible does not reveal a logical, chronological, systematic eschatology. It is like a family album. The pictures are true, but not always in order, in context, in a logical sequence. Some of the pictures have fallen out of the album and later generations of family members do not know exactly how to put them back.

The key to proper interpretation of Revelation is the intent of the original author as revealed in his choice of literary genre.

Most interpreters try to carry their exegetical tools and procedures from other genres of the NT into their interpretations of Revelation. They focus on the OT instead of allowing the teachings of Jesus and Paul to set the theological structure and let Revelation act as illustrative.

I must admit that I approach this commentary on the Revelation with some fear and trepidation, not because of the curse of Rev. 22:18-19, but because of the level of controversy the interpretation of this book has caused and continues to cause among God's people.

I love God's revelation. It is true when all men are liars (cf. Rom. 3:4)! Please use this commentary as an attempt to be thought provoking and not definitive, as a sign post and not a road map, as a "what if," not a "thus says the Lord."

I have come face to face with my own inadequacies, biases, and theological agenda. I have also seen those of other interpreters. It almost seems that people find in Revelation what they expect to find.


The genre lends itself to abuse! However, it is in the Bible for a purpose. Its placement as the concluding "word" is not by accident.

It has a message from God to His children of each and every generation. God wants us to understand! Let us join hands, not form camps; let us affirm what is clear and central, not all that may be, might be, could be true. God help us all!

Again I say-good luck.
J.

 

[face2face]

The Bible does not reveal a logical, chronological, systematic eschatology. It is like a family album. The pictures are true, but not always in order, in context, in a logical sequence. Some of the pictures have fallen out of the album and later generations of family members do not know exactly how to put them back..

While this can be true of the order of the books of the Bibl,e the prophetical utterences as recorded within the books are mostly given in a continuous histoical order.

Here is a simple illustration which no-one in this forum can argue with...to do so would be utter foolishness.

All given in a historical order!


The issue with this slide is while none can argue with it - the notion forum members attach to these events can be either true or false.

Having the correct keys to unlock is where truth is found.

F2F

 

[Johann]

Having the correct keys to unlock is where truth is found.

And where do you find the correct keys to unlock where truth is found?
From a study Bible?
J.

 

[face2face]

And where do you find the correct keys to unlock where truth is found?
From a study Bible?
J.

No J. The Bible is it own resource.
Could you argue with the slide?

 

[Johann]

No J. The Bible is it own resource.
Could you argue with the slide?

Can't say I could argue with the slide-
J.

 

[face2face]

Can't say I could argue with the slide-
J.

This is the issue J. People are less likely to agree when something is clearly right because they don’t want to lose ground - or give away their position. I could reveal a lot more, but its difficult to do so when you have such blatant opposition.

If I asked you J what is the symbol of the horse generally in Scripture what would you say? How then would you apply that meaning to Revalation 6-7 (the seals)?

You dont need a study Bible to work this out.

J

 

[Johann]

This is the issue J. People are less likely to agree when something is clearly right because they don’t want to lose ground - or give away their position. I could reveal a lot more, but its difficult to do so when you have such blatant opposition.

If I asked you J what is the symbol of the horse generally in Scripture what would you say? How then would you apply that meaning to Revalation 6-7 (the seals)?

You dont need a study Bible to work this out.

Eschatology is not my forte-but I'm willing to give you a listening ear.

Bearing in mind-

Through the years of my study of eschatology I have learned that most Christians do not have or want a developed, systematized, end-time chronology. There are some Christians who focus or major on this area of Christianity for theological, psychological, or denominational reasons.

These Christians seem to become obsessed with how it will all end, and somehow miss the urgency of the gospel!

Believers cannot affect God's eschatological (end-time) agenda, but they can participate in the gospel mandate (cf. Matt. 28:19-20; Luke 24:46-47; Acts 1:8). Most believers affirm a Second Coming of Christ and an end-time culmination of the promises of God. The interpretive problems arising from how to understand this temporal culmination come from several biblical paradoxes

1. the tension between Old Covenant prophetic models and New Covenant apostolic models

2. the tension between the Bible's monotheism (one God for all) and the election of Israel (a special people)

3. the tension between the conditional aspect of biblical covenants and promises ("if. . .then") and the unconditional faithfulness of God to fallen mankind's redemption

4. the tension between Near Eastern literary genres and modern western literary models

5. the tension between the Kingdom of God as present, yet future.

6. the tension between belief in the imminent return of Christ and the belief that some events must happen first.

J.

 

[face2face]

Eschatology is not my forte-but I'm willing to give you a listening ear.
J.

I'd send you info privately to spend some time going over - you are an intelligent studious investigator of the Word so I know you will be diligent with the information.
F2F

 

[Johann]

I'd send you info privately to spend some time going over - you are an intelligent studious investigator of the Word so I know you will be diligent with the information.
F2F

Thank you.
J.

 

[ewq1938]

Ah you are speaking about Rev 11 now - different age and time period than the horse period. By now I'm sure you are starting to doubt how all these chapters referring to different events can be packed into such a far off short time period

Preterism is heresy so, no, I'm not doubting truth for error.

 

[ewq1938]

While this can be true of the order of the books of the Bibl,e the prophetical utterences as recorded within the books are mostly given in a continuous histoical order.

Here is a simple illustration which no-one in this forum can argue with...to do so would be utter foolishness.

All given in a historical order!

View attachment 34465
The issue with this slide is while none can argue with it

Not exactly. In Genesis the serpent is not "loosed" because he isn't imprisoned at that time. In Rev 20 is where the serpent is imprisoned then loosed.

 

[face2face]

Not exactly. In Genesis the serpent is not "loosed" because he isn't imprisoned at that time. In Rev 20 is where the serpent is imprisoned then loosed.

It's referring to the serpent thinking ewq! You are better to ask than assume
Again, you would need to understand Genesis correctly before Revelation 20 can be properly understood.
But you did prove my point.
F2F

 

[face2face]

Getting back to Matthew 24:8

All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

COMPARE

Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape I Thess 5:3

inexorable conclusion!

There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. Luke 21:11

It's interesting this idea of them not being able to escape which is very different to the second coming of Christ where this is not even an option. This is referring to a very specific coming destruction where if the warnings are heeded, one can escape!

F2F

 

[face2face]

When we look at verse 9 of Matthew 24 you cannot avoid the immediate relevance to the disciples questioning the Lord - you would need to be in total ignorance what was to take place over the next 40 or so years.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

We certainly live in different times today - days of tolerance but in those days to profess Christ crucified came with astonishing persecution.

How many Christians are beaten in their Churches today?

All present tense!

“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them Mark 13:9

40 and when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. Ac 5:40.

To be continued...

 

[face2face]

They “Shall kill you”

See Herod who killed James Acts 12:1-2
Peter was crucified 2 Peter 1:14 ??? (tradition)
Paul was executed 2 Tim 4:8 ??? (tradition has him beheaded in Rome)
John banished Rev 1:9

F2F