The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[marks]

You just asked about Romans 11. That's all I gave you. You must combine it with 2 Thes. 2, the letters to the seven churches, and Revelation 7, 12, and 13.

Yes, a derived doctrine, but I do not see it supported in any of those passages. None teach that gentiles will not be saved during the 70th week, and if you hold that view, there is a real conflict with other passages, not the least of which being the judgment of the nations.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sorry for splitting this post up so badly; I must need some coffee.

That is found in 2 Thes. 2

Which refers to those who perish, not all gentiles.

No worries, drink coffee! I am.

 

[CharismaticLady]

No they don't.

Sudden destruction will come and take many away. Later Jesus will gather the survivors, and separate them in judgment.

Much love!

So the one who is taken is destroyed? And the one who is left will be destroyed too in judgment? This doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Bobby Jo]

You can comment all you want. I am just letting you know I am not interested in your comments, answers, bs, etc.etc.etc.

Stranger

And I'd actually prefer to not waste my time with you. So I guess the feelings are mutual.

-- And as I taught my young grandchildren to say to their Mother as a prank while walking out the door to the school bus, before they actually knew what they were saying: Good bye and good riddance. But for you, it's intended.
Bobby Jo

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes, a derived doctrine, but I do not see it supported in any of those passages. None teach that gentiles will not be saved during the 70th week, and if you hold that view, there is a real conflict with other passages, not the least of which being the judgment of the nations.

Much love!

Re: 2 Thes. 2 When the lawless one comes, the Antichrist, and a strong delusion is placed on those who didn't already choose Christ, how can they be saved? The answer is they are in two groups. Romans 11 tells you the groups. The salvation of the Gentiles is complete, so no more Gentiles. And all Israel will be saved, so they do not have a delusion put on them because this is their 70th week.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... this is their 70th week.

Is IGNORANCE a prerequisite for christians? Are we perpetually destined to believe and in-turn perpetuate lies?

It certainly appears so ...
Bobby Jo

 

[CharismaticLady]

Which refers to those who perish, not all gentiles.

No worries, drink coffee! I am.

I had tea instead.

Seeing as I know that there will be a time when there is a division between Gentiles and Jews, and that there is a fullness of the Gentiles, and a time when all Israel will be saved, that separation is at the beginning of the GT, the same 7 years of the Antichrist.

We've already determined that the woman is Israel and agree. In the first half of the 7 years national Israel is protected, but the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandment and are followers of Christ, Christians, are persecuted. Note they were already Christians at the beginning of the GT, so you see Rev. 7 doesn't mean that new Gentiles will be newly saved during the GT. The Church is still on the earth, not raptured in a secret rapture. The second half of the GT, national Jews are still protected, and the Christians are still persecuted as the Antichrist is given permission to continue another 3 1/2 years. (chapter 13) The Christians are in two groups as well. Nominal Christians who will be martyred, and holy Christians (Philadelphians) who will also be protected, according to the letters.

 

[CharismaticLady]

@marks

Generally I have found that those who believe in the secret rapture believe that those who are taken are raptured, not destroyed. It is interesting to me that you don't, seeing as you also are pre-trib. I'm impressed. Though the context of the passage is referring to Noah and the flood, and there was a different outcome than yours for those who are taken and those who are left. You have both being destroyed.

 

[marks]

So the one who is taken is destroyed? And the one who is left will be destroyed too in judgment? This doesn't make sense to me.

No, that's not what I'm saying. The Sheep/Goats judgment, also known as the judgment of the nations, will be after Jesus returns. But before that will be a sudden destruction that, like the flood, will come and take people away in it's cataclysm.

Those who remain will face the 70th week and the great tribulation. And those who survive, the Jews will be gathered to Israel, and the nations will be gathered to be judge. Some of the gentiles of the nations will be accepted into the kingdom. These are saved.

 

[marks]

Re: 2 Thes. 2 When the lawless one comes, the Antichrist, and a strong delusion is placed on those who didn't already choose Christ, how can they be saved? The answer is they are in two groups. Romans 11 tells you the groups. The salvation of the Gentiles is complete, so no more Gentiles. And all Israel will be saved, so they do not have a delusion put on them because this is their 70th week.

Again, this group who are deluded are Not identified as gentiles, they are identified as those who perish, having not received the love of the truth. Nothing here says there won't be gentiles who do receive the truth, not perishing, and not deluded.

The delusion is a remand to condemnation of those who are perishing, who did not receive the love of the truth, whomever they may be.

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks

Generally I have found that those who believe in the secret rapture believe that those who are taken are raptured, not destroyed. It is interesting to me that you don't, seeing as you also are pre-trib. I'm impressed. Though the context of the passage is referring to Noah and the flood, and there was a different outcome than yours for those who are taken and those who are left. You have both being destroyed.

What??

This passage isn't about the rapture of the gentile church.

 

[CharismaticLady]

take people away in it's cataclysm

That seems like the lake of fire.

But you have that before the 70th week. The 70th week is also the Great Tribulation.

Well, I must say, you are singular in your study and pre-trib beliefs. I doubt that any other pre-tribber would agree with you. I like people who think for themselves. Makes it more interesting. And their minds can be changed because they are not closed minded into denominationalism. Good for you! I'm the same - open minded, and have changed theories along the way.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Again, this group who are deluded are Not identified as gentiles, they are identified as those who perish, having not received the love of the truth. Nothing here says there won't be gentiles who do receive the truth, not perishing, and not deluded.

The delusion is a remand to condemnation of those who are perishing, who did not receive the love of the truth, whomever they may be.

Much love!

To me that conflicts Romans 11. You have Gentiles being saved to more than full, but to overflowing! LOL

 

[CharismaticLady]

What??

This passage isn't about the rapture of the gentile church.

Your saying the Gentile Church makes me cringe. Jesus is the Root/Church, and the natural branches are Jews. Gentiles are grafted into the Jewish Church, until the fullness of the Gentiles is complete. Then the remaining Jews will be grafted into their own Church.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... Gentiles are grafted into the Jewish Church, until the fullness of the Gentiles is complete. Then the remaining Jews will be grafted into their own Church.

A NEW DOCTRINE. I wonder if it comes with a NEWEST TESTAMENT!!!

Whew,
Bobby Jo

 

[CharismaticLady]

Sounds good.

My view, as you know is based on the Dispensational interpretation of Scripture. Of course I have Scripture to support it. But it wouldn't matter as your method of interpreting is different.

I just didn't know if you were asking because you didn't know or if it had already been answered.

Stranger

I can answer you now as marks has replied. Scripturally, the answer to who are the taken, and who are the left behind is the opposite of what many pre-tribbers believe. It all lies in the context of it being like in the days of Noah. It is the "taken" who were destroyed in the flood, and the "left" are those who are left living.

Took and Taken equals Destroyed

Luke 17:27 and the flood came and DESTROYED them all.
Matthew 24:39 the flood came and TOOK them all away

Luke 17: 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and TOOK them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be TAKEN and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be TOOK and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


Luke 17:36-3736 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

 

[Bobby Jo]

Luke 17:36-3736 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

I guess @Stranger will refuse to accept ANYTHING previously presented, because apparently he thinks that SOME Christians have no part in the Body of Christ and can and MUST be disregarded. -- Whether due to Prevarication, Pride, Prejudice, Partiality, or Personal Penchant, who can guess?!?


Bobby Jo

 

[Stranger]

@marks answered, but wasn't clear to me, so I asked him to clarify.

My "method" is context, and Scripture explains Scripture. As far as dispensations, the only change I see in our New Covenant to make another "dispensation" has to do with the last 7 years before Christ comes. But there are differences in people's understanding of dispensationalism, and I can't remember yours, specifically.

I agree with your emphasis on context and Scripture interpreting Scripture.

I don't understand what you mean by "the only change I see in our New Covenant...has to do with the last 7 years" Do you not see a change from the Mosaic Law to this period of Grace that the Church is under now?

I know there are hyper-Dispensationalist's which see certain books of the Bible not applicable for the Church today. Such as the book of (James). I am not that. I am just your basic Dispensationalist after the mold of Darby and Scofield.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I can answer you now as marks has replied. Scripturally, the answer to who are the taken, and who are the left behind is the opposite of what many pre-tribbers believe. It all lies in the context of it being like in the days of Noah. It is the "taken" who were destroyed in the flood, and the "left" are those who are left living.

Took and Taken equals Destroyed

Luke 17:27 and the flood came and DESTROYED them all.
Matthew 24:39 the flood came and TOOK them all away

Luke 17: 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and TOOK them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be TAKEN and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be TOOK and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


Luke 17:36-3736 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

I believe, at this time, that you are correct. I say 'at this time' as I need to refresh myself on the order and nature of these end-time events. This is not a description of the Rapture. It is a description of being taken in judgement. And it is an event that occurs at the Second Coming of Christ. (Luke 17:24)

But this does not speak against the existence of either the Rapture or the 7 year Tribulation. It does describe the Second Coming as a time of judgement.

You underlined 'eagles will be gathered together'. Why?

Stranger

 

[CharismaticLady]

Do you not see a change from the Mosaic Law to this period of Grace that the Church is under now?

That was before the Resurrection, so before the New Covenant. The Old Covenant, weak by the flesh, ended when Jesus said while still on the cross, "It is finished." The New Covenant laws are the laws of the Spirit of life in Christ and began on the Day of Pentecost. I look at that day like the reading of the will. Everything He taught in His ministry to the disciples, (not to the Pharisees, as they were merely corrections to their views of the Old Covenant) is His writing of the will and testament.

I know there are hyper-Dispensationalist's which see certain books of the Bible not applicable for the Church today. Such as the book of (James). I am not that. I am just your basic Dispensationalist after the mold of Darby and Scofield.

Well, you lost me there. I don't study man's theories, so am clueless as to what they taught. I guess I am my own type of dispensationalist. Regarding the New Covenant, these paragraphs are different dispensations (as I understand dispensations):

1. The first was the gospel to the Jews first,

2. Then in Acts 10, the start of the gospel to the Gentiles for them to be grafted into the Jewish Church, and in Romans 11, we see that the this focus on the Gentiles while the Jews are partially blinded will last only until the fullness of the Gentiles comes into the Jewish Church,

3. Then all national Israel will be saved, and no more Gentiles will be newly converted during the Great Tribulation. (Those Christians who "come out of the Great Tribulation were already Christians going into the Great Tribulation, because God will place a strong delusion on all the unsaved Gentiles at the beginning of it when the Antichrist is revealed.) The Great Tribulation and the 70th week are in the same time frame.

The rapture at the second coming when every eye will see Him will start the 1000 year Millennium. Those Christians who are alive at the second coming when Christ returns with the saints who have died previously will be caught up to meet them in the air. I'll be curious to see if they enter into the "beloved city" of Revelation 20, which is described in Revelation 21 and if it is levitated above the earth.

Armageddon, ending with the lake of fire.

New heavens and new earth.