The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[marks]

Romans 11:25-26

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

I'm assuming you are referring to the expression, "the fulness of the gentiles?"

This does not mean, "all who will be saved of the gentiles", rather, it means the filling up of the gentiles, or, all the gentiles that fit to fill. This does not prohibit that gentiles will be saved in other times. Before the gospel was sent to the gentiles, gentiles were still being saved. And after the gospel was sent to the gentiles, hardness in part happened to Israel, and some Jews were likewise saved.

Interpreting this passage as the completion of the gentiles beginning the ingrafting again of Israel is a despensational view, naturally. And we know that God's message within that dispensation applies to those of that dispensation. So that the Jews are told to offer sacrifices and we are not. Sacrifices will again be offered, but in a different dispensation to come.

The fulness of the gentiles would seem to me to be something for the current dispensational time, that is, the fulness of the gentiles in this age of grace, just to pick a popular name. I don't really name disensations myself, more just to identify the message and the people.

Regardless of your rapture timing view, there is the matter of the judgment of the nations, the sheep and the goats. They are judged according to how they acted regarding the Jews, Jesus' brothers. Some are declared righteous, these from among gentiles. Whether the church is raptured pre-trib, or pre-wrath, these are after.

Well, let me ask you . . . Do you believe that Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect, that this all Christians, and all Israel, all gathered together?

Much love!

 

[marks]

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

9 [even he], whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: 12 that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

For them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

I'm thinking you are looking at this part?

All gentiles who did not receive the love of the truth, that is, all gentiles post Romans 11:25? These are identified as "them that perish". Not included in this bunch are, of course, "them that perish not". These will not be given the delusion that will remand them to condemnation.

Are there any? What about the Jews? They didn't believe when they had the chance, aren't they part of this also? Those who perish will be under the delusion. But those who don't will not. And we know that Israel will be saved.

This would apply equally to gentiles. Nothing here specifies Jews, gentiles, anything like that. Only that those who perish did not receive the love of the truth, and are deluded to lock out any changes.


Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

What can you do...

All I can think of is bear with one another. I think it is totally possible that the disciples as they walked with Jesus pre resurrection, had conflicting ideas with each other culminating in their abandonment of Jesus in Gethsemane.....all because they tried to superimpose their conceptions onto what Jesus was trying to reveal to them. Only Judas ended up thinking he was the smarter of the bunch and surprisingly, lost out.
Oh how we need to pray, Lord humble my heart, open my eyes and strengthen my spirit so that I may not sin against you and my fellow man.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... Oh how we need to pray, Lord humble my heart, open my eyes and strengthen my spirit so that I may not sin against you and my fellow man.

I agree. There too much slandering of other Christians, when we should simply answer why the Dan. 9 "seven and sixty-two" is defended when there is NO Scriptural or Historical Societal PRECEDENT.

But instead of answering the challenge, so many "christians" sin against their fellow man by REFUSING TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, and instead resort to slandering someone (i.e., Issac Newton) whose insight still stands unanswered.


We should all hate hypocrites who DEMAND one standard for everyone else, but spew slander/hatred/curses from their personal gutter.
Bobby Jo

 

[marks]

Revelation 7:13-14

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I'm not sure how you see no saved gentiles after Romans 11:25, or during the 70th week from this passage. What does this passage mean to you?

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

I'm assuming you are referring to the expression, "the fulness of the gentiles?"

This does not mean, "all who will be saved of the gentiles", rather, it means the filling up of the gentiles, or, all the gentiles that fit to fill. This does not prohibit that gentiles will be saved in other times. Before the gospel was sent to the gentiles, gentiles were still being saved. And after the gospel was sent to the gentiles, hardness in part happened to Israel, and some Jews were likewise saved.

Interpreting this passage as the completion of the gentiles beginning the ingrafting again of Israel is a despensational view, naturally. And we know that God's message within that dispensation applies to those of that dispensation. So that the Jews are told to offer sacrifices and we are not. Sacrifices will again be offered, but in a different dispensation to come.

The fulness of the gentiles would seem to me to be something for the current dispensational time, that is, the fulness of the gentiles in this age of grace, just to pick a popular name. I don't really name disensations myself, more just to identify the message and the people.

Regardless of your rapture timing view, there is the matter of the judgment of the nations, the sheep and the goats. They are judged according to how they acted regarding the Jews, Jesus' brothers. Some are declared righteous, these from among gentiles. Whether the church is raptured pre-trib, or pre-wrath, these are after.

Well, let me ask you . . . Do you believe that Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect, that this all Christians, and all Israel, all gathered together?

Much love!

Romans 11 is talking about the Jew's rejection of Jesus, giving way for Gentiles to be saved UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Comes in where? Into the Church. Then all Israel will be saved, meaning after the last Gentile come into the church the partial blindness will be removed and all the Jews remaining will join with all other Christians into the Church.

And, yes Matthew 24:31 means everybody in the Church - both Jew and Gentile.

New question: Who is left and who is taken? What does that mean?

40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

 

[CharismaticLady]

9 [even he], whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: 12 that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

For them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

I'm thinking you are looking at this part?

All gentiles who did not receive the love of the truth, that is, all gentiles post Romans 11:25? These are identified as "them that perish". Not included in this bunch are, of course, "them that perish not". These will not be given the delusion that will remand them to condemnation.

Are there any? What about the Jews? They didn't believe when they had the chance, aren't they part of this also? Those who perish will be under the delusion. But those who don't will not. And we know that Israel will be saved.

This would apply equally to gentiles. Nothing here specifies Jews, gentiles, anything like that. Only that those who perish did not receive the love of the truth, and are deluded to lock out any changes.


Much love!

All Gentiles that do not make up the fullness of the Gentiles will have a strong delusion on them. No Jews will have this strong delusion because all Israel will be saved. You can't be saved and take the mark of the beast.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... all Israel will be saved. You can't be saved and take the mark of the beast.

A bit presumptuous. -- Who can say what circumstances will prevail in Israel regarding the Mark of the Beast? After all, there are MANY Arabs living in Israel, and they might wish to accept participation in the global currency system. And if Arabs, than why not Jews? Each person will be free to choose, -- or so it would seem.

Bobby Jo

 

[CharismaticLady]

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I'm not sure how you see no saved gentiles after Romans 11:25, or during the 70th week from this passage. What does this passage mean to you?

Much love!

You have to believe previous clues such as Romans 11. Clues in Revelation 7, and Revelation 2 and 3.

1. They already have robes, but they are dirty, so they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb.
2. No Gentiles with the strong delusion on them will be saved, which begins and the beginning of the Great Tribulation and goes until the second coming.
3. Lukewarm, sinful Christians who have yet to overcome sin by the beginning of the GT, are the ones with dirty robes when the Tribulation starts (Revelation 2: 21 "And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.," and must stop straddling the fence. They make up the martyrs that do not take the mark of the beast. But not just those in Thyatira (RCC and ORTH), but those who still need to overcome from Sardis (Reformation) and Laodecia (nominal) church ages.

The 70th week has two timings. It is actually from 66 AD to 73 AD, with the end of sacrifices being in 70 AD. But that week also foreshadows the last 7 years of history. Many argue even further and say it is from the beginning of Christ's ministry to the stoning of Stephen, with the crucifixion in the middle. I do not as Christ is already cut off before the prince to come is revealed (Titus) and the temple is destroyed. So I won't go backwards to a previous part of the prophecy when the Messiah is cut off.

 

[Bobby Jo]

...
The 70th week has two timings. ...

There is NO "70th week". It's a FALSE "interpretation" of Daniel 9. -- But LIES are part of the deception of the church, and the church has SEVERAL including the tribulation era "rapture".

But why discuss and defend Scripture/History, when fallacies suffice?
Bobby Jo

 

[quietthinker]

There is NO "70th week". It's a FALSE "interpretation" of Daniel 9. -- But LIES are part of the deception of the church, and the church has SEVERAL including the tribulation era "rapture".

But why discuss and defend Scripture/History, when fallacies suffice?
Bobby Jo

BJ, you continue to spew forth froth and bubble thinking you have something profound to say.....it's pathetic!

 

[Stranger]

New question: Who is left and who is taken? What does that mean?

40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

So do you have an answer to your question?

Stranger

 

[Truther]

It is quite nice of God to give an end date to the 7 year tribulation.

He will still shorten the days to make sure flesh is actually saved.

Scary time to live on earth.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... pathetic!

What's "pathetic" is your violent religiosity, and refusal to answer a simple Scriptural question. Are you so enamored with your religious fervor that you IGNORE SCRIPTURE?

NEED MORE RELIGIOSITY! -- NOT.
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

So do you have an answer to your question?

Stranger

If it's the same answer, -- where the eagles (vultures) are gathered --, we should have our "answer".

Bobby Jo

 

[CharismaticLady]

So do you have an answer to your question?

Stranger

Of course. But I asked @marks so I need to wait for his answer. If he doesn't respond, I'll tell you what I believe.

In the meantime, what do you believe? And do you have other scripture to back it up.

 

[marks]

You have to believe previous clues such as Romans 11. Clues in Revelation 7, and Revelation 2 and 3.

Hi CL,

OK, so it sounds like you are saying this idea of no gentiles saved during the future 70th week is derived from your understanding of other passages, not that a particular passage teaches it, is that correct? Something like the Trinity, not specifically taught, but derived from the understanding of various passages. Do I understand correctly?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Romans 11 is talking about the Jew's rejection of Jesus, giving way for Gentiles to be saved UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Comes in where? Into the Church. Then all Israel will be saved, meaning after the last Gentile come into the church the partial blindness will be removed and all the Jews remaining will join with all other Christians into the Church.

Can you show me exactly where in that chapter that gentiles cannot be saved after a certain time? Because I don't know where that would be.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And, yes Matthew 24:31 means everybody in the Church - both Jew and Gentile.

Who are the sheep of the sheep and goats judgment? If every gentile believer, as well as the chosen nation Israel, is gathered in Matthew 24:31, who is gathered in 25:32? And of them, who are the sheep who are received into the kingdom?

Many will come from the east and west . . .

 

[marks]

New question: Who is left and who is taken? What does that mean?

40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

Let's follow the others a little further first . . .