The false gospel of grace

[Episkopos]

I guess this sounds too hard to me the way it is written. But that could just be because of where I am. My only goal is to keep trusting and to trust for longer periods of time without stumbling in trust. It took me many years to even just stop worrying over money and where it was going to come from. I couldn't stop being dragged into worry again And again. And then I saw that I was worrying over my spiritual provision. So...I'm just always practicing remaining in trust. That's where I am, just loving that rest and striving to remain in it and refuse temptations to leave it, which is To stumble/stop abiding. To me, that IS practice of holiness.

OK Just know that God loves you even if you are not destined to rule over galaxies and tend personally to Jesus at every meal. ;)

Too often we see the kingdom of God as a fantasy tale we feel entitled to. But just to be in the saved nations...is still far better than living here on earth.

it's just that God is so big and holy...and His standards are too high for most of us. I tend to just see myself as a simple brother...but one who looks to God who can do the impossible. So I don't despair knowing that in a moment...the twinkling of an eye...all things can change. :)

We can just be humble and grateful without pouting every time we realize we are not on the same level as Abraham or Stephen.

The fact is we all do have a shot at the big prize...the full stature of Christ..the high calling. Some people will see it as a challenge...others will just see the difficulty of it and get discouraged.

But I think it unwise to reduce the standard of God to make people feel better about themselves...as the modern churches have done. We need to trust the Lord and appeal to the potential saint that is in each one of us. We are all CALLED to be saints after all! :)

Without Christ we can so nothing...and also without His body, our brethren, we can't move forward in the race. We are members one of another. With Jesus Christ and one another...we can do anything.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

OK Just know that God loves you even if you are not destined to rule over galaxies and tend personally to Jesus at every meal. ;)

Too often we see the kingdom of God as a fantasy tale we feel entitled to. But just to be in the saved nations...is still far better than living here on earth.

it's just that God is so big and holy...and His standards are too high for most of us.

We can just be humble and grateful without pouting every time we realize we are not on the same level as Abraham or Stephen.

The fact is we all do have a shot at the big prize...the full stature of Christ..the high calling. Some people will see it as a challenge...others will just see the difficulty of it and get discouraged.

But I think it unwise to reduce the standard of God to make people feel better about themselves...as the modern churches have done. We need to trust the Lord and appeal to the potential saint that is in each one of us. We are all CALLED to be saints after all! :)

Without Christ we can so nothing...and also without His body, our brethren, we can't move forward in the race. We are members one of another. With Jesus Christ and one another...we can do anything.

I don't care about ruling over galaxies or nations. I just want to run my race of trust. If I am to rule over a galaxy or sit in any certain place, that's His to decide. And He does everything so well that I'm quite sure my place will be very well suited to me!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

OK....I meant know Christ in the intimate sense of experiential power. But I agree with you. In 1 John it says if we sin we have never known Him. I take that to mean...if you have never stopped sinning so as to walk in a supernatural life of power...then you have not yet known Jesus AS HE IS. So then a saint can say AS HE IS...so are we in this world.

I follow an exact biblical standard that is unheard of....which Paul sought after. He called it "the high calling in Christ."

It's like the difference between buying a guitar...and then becoming a world class musician. How many people buy guitars? Many. How many guitarists become world class musicians? Few. So then we have all these people claiming to be saints....just like pride-filled prima-donnas that can't play at all calling themselves world class musicians. It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

But people HATE God's standards. It sounds IMPOSSIBLE. But that's when you know the doctrine is from God. Because without His direct help...it IS impossible. So then we are forced to seek a relationship with Him. Then...everybody is happy! :)

But all this false doctrine that the modern churches teach...make people happy...but God not so much!

What verse in 1 John are you referring to?

 

[Episkopos]

What verse in 1 John are you referring to?

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

I like my translation better. :)

Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.

But in my own case, I did not keep sinning. It felt to me like it was forever that I kept worrying, which is sin because whatever is not of trust is sin, but He has me in a place currently where I am trusting, and so I'm not sinning. I am abiding/remaining in that trust in Him currently. And that's the only work I am aware of Him wanting from me - to send away the child I tried so hard to bring about for so long and let Him do the work of bringing forth the child who receives the blessing.

Keeping in mind with what I've said here that I agree with your saying that righteousness is a moving target.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But I do understand your disgust, episkopos. You know the phrase I can't stand? Its "I'm exactly like you and the only difference between us is I'm forgiven and you're not. I want to shriek every time I hear it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Quick derailment. I love M. Knight Shaymalan. I think he is so talented. I am going to just buy his newest movie because I absolutely can't wait until it will be free to watch. Can't wait any longer. He gets better and better at his craft with each story and each movie. And when he took on a comic book theme of good hero vs. Evil villain with the two characters in Unbreakable, I was blown away. I keep waiting for one of his stories to be a disappointment but it seems to never happen!

Derail ended. :)

 

[H. Richard]

You say the law condemns those who think they have to earn salvation by what they do. And this is true, because the law condemns every single man ever born.

But if you stop there, you are, as episkopos says, a halfbaked cake. (Which is to say, in other words, if you stop there, you have half the truth.)


The gospel cannot be boiled down to "trust that you will live forever and you will." It also can't be boiled down to
" believe that Jesus died and you will live forever."

You can't present "I don't condemn you" while failing to present "go and sin no more." Otherwise, you are no different than those who marveled over His gracious words but a second later wanted to kill Him.

When a person is controlled by what they do in the flesh then they are under bondage to the flesh.

To me, what you are saying is that salvation requires a person to earn it by what they do because you add the requirement that a person has to stop sinning in the flesh.

It is the condemnation of sins of the flesh that caused God to pay for mankind's sins of the flesh. Man can not pay for their sins by what they do or not do. The religious refuse to see that they still sin in the flesh. Their pride drives them to think they are better than others.

Paul's gospel, the gospel that he proclaimed, is one of God's grace. Jesus gave this gospel of grace to Paul for mankind and it is very simple. God, Himself, paid for the sins of the whole world but man says He didn't. The gospel is very simple.

1 Cor 15:1-5 --- NKJV ---The Risen Christ, Faith's Reality (cf. Mark 16:9-20)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

The religious say that this gospel was taught by Jesus and the twelve but they never taught the gospel that Paul taught. Jesus and the twelve never rescinded the Law of Moses. Proof of that is in Acts 21:20 But Paul did. The gospel that Jesus and twelve taught was from the covenant God made with the Jews which was that the Messiah and King would set up the promised Jewish kingdom on this earth. In scripture it is the gospel of the kingdom which Jesus and the twelve taught.

It is your belief that causes you to be at odds with me. I proclaim that Jesus (God) did all that was necessary for a person's salvation on the cross and there is nothing that man can do save him/her self by his/her own will (works).

Those in religion just want to show their pride in what they do in religion. They only give lip service to what Jesus did for them on the cross. If I teach anything but the work of Jesus (God) on the cross to save a person then I belittle the work of God.

 

[H. Richard]

The gospel cannot be boiled down to "trust that you will live forever and you will." It also can't be boiled down to
" believe that Jesus died and you will live forever."

You left out who to trust. Anyone who trusts in Jesus work on the cross for their salvation is trusting in God.

Buy mankind does not want to trust IN GOD. They, like Cain, only trust in themselves.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

When a person is controlled by what they do in the flesh then they are under bondage to the flesh.

To me, what you are saying is that salvation requires a person to earn it by what they do because you add the requirement that a person has to stop sinning in the flesh.

It is the condemnation of sins of the flesh that caused God to pay for mankind's sins of the flesh. Man can not pay for their sins by what they do or not do. The religious refuse to see that they still sin in the flesh. Their pride drives them to think they are better than others.

Paul's gospel, the gospel that he proclaimed, is one of God's grace. Jesus gave this gospel of grace to Paul for mankind and it is very simple. God, Himself, paid for the sins of the whole world but man says He didn't. The gospel is very simple.

1 Cor 15:1-5 --- NKJV ---The Risen Christ, Faith's Reality (cf. Mark 16:9-20)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

The religious say that this gospel was taught by Jesus and the twelve but they never taught the gospel that Paul taught. Jesus and the twelve never rescinded the Law of Moses. Proof of that is in Acts 21:20 But Paul did. The gospel that Jesus and twelve taught was from the covenant God made with the Jews which was that the Messiah and King would set up the promised Jewish kingdom on this earth. In scripture it is the gospel of the kingdom which Jesus and the twelve taught.

It is your belief that causes you to be at odds with me. I proclaim that Jesus (God) did all that was necessary for a person's salvation on the cross and there is nothing that man can do save him/her self by his/her own will (works).

Those in religion just want to show their pride in what they do in religion. They only give lip service to what Jesus did for them on the cross. If I teach anything but the work of Jesus (God) on the cross to save a person then I belittle the work of God.

I'm not at odds with you...I think my focus is just slightly different than yours. I honestly don't give much thought to outward sins, but focus on where the sin originates, which is in my heart and mind.

So if you were to ask me do I sin, I would confess that I've been pretty much a serial killer up until recently. But I would also say that more recently, God has given me victory over my angers and resentments and I haven't murdered anyone in quite some time.

The odd kicker is that when I tried so hard to stop murdering, I got worse and worse rather than better! I was trying to be virtuous and grow in virtue by my own working, which made me a foolish galatians, thinking I could finish what was begun in the Spirit through trust.

 

[Episkopos]

You left out who to trust. Anyone who trusts in Jesus work on the cross for their salvation is trusting in God.

Buy mankind does not want to trust IN GOD. They, like Cain, only trust in themselves.

This is a completely false argument. You have set up a false scenario where everyone who isn't as deceived as you are about religious beliefs is evil.

What you forgot about is God. You don't understand what God does INSIDE a person. So your lack of faith in God causes you to think that the only thing God can do is look the other way as you sin.

But you need to be saved still. There are other people like you that believe they are born again sinners. But we are not born again into sin...but away from sin.

 

[CoreIssue]

I've seen people who have it in their walks.

S0 you can read their minds.

No one is sinless.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You left out who to trust. Anyone who trusts in Jesus work on the cross for their salvation is trusting in God.

Buy mankind does not want to trust IN GOD. They, like Cain, only trust in themselves.

I left out who to trust? Perhaps I meant to trust tinkerbell?

 

[Episkopos]

I left out who to trust? Perhaps I meant to trust tinkerbell?

You didn't sound religious enough. You never even mentioned being saved or how grace allows you to sin or any other catchwords used in the religious brainwashing technique.

 

[marks]

if we abide in Him we do not sin

Hi sbg,

Are we talking about this part?

1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

My objection was to the Straw Man argument that I stated that the ungodly are in Christ, or that others are saying that. I can't imagine where you would find me saying that, since it's pretty much the exact opposite of what I believe and teach.

Since this is not what I believe, therefore it is a Straw Man, you can stand it up, you can knock it down, but it gives a show of victory, in reality it's just a distraction.

I'd love to dispense with distractions.

So let me ask you a question.

Do you commit sins?

Serious question with a serious discussion to follow.

Much love!
mark

 

[marks]

I think your focus is wrong.

Thank you!

We all have stumbled in our race of trust. The point should be to get up and start trusting (abiding) again.

If we look at the passage, there must be something very important more to this.

You say that if we stumble - I assume you mean Sin - that if we Sin - we should start trusting and abiding again.

So then, your view is that if we sin it means that we've stopped abiding in Christ, and that we need to begin abiding in Him again. Is that correct?

I'm curious, when you read this passage:

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Do you see this as saying that being in Christ, you have become a new creation, or do you see this as saying that when you are in Christ you are a new creation?

The difference being, in the first one, that we are baptised into Christ, and this is our rebirth, or, the second being that when we are in an "abiding" relationship with Christ, we are the new creation.

I think your question should rather be, do you think you will ever stumble again in your trust? Like...do you think you will ever begin to worry again over temporal provision? Or...do you think you will ever begin to try again to be good rather than trust Him to change your heart?

Why should these be questions? These seem to be questioning some imagined future, rather than trusting God for my sanctification.

But if someone is abiding presently, they're not sinning that they're aware of,

That they are aware of? So then someone who is abiding in Christ may be sinning unawares?

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

So your lack of faith in God causes you to think that the only thing God can do is look the other way as you sin.

But you need to be saved still. There are other people like you that believe they are born again sinners. But we are not born again into sin...but away from sin.

So Richard is not a Christian in your view, because he does not agree with your Holiness doctrine?

And the continuing Straw Man of "born again sinners"? Argue against that all you like, but that is not the argument.



Episkopos, you've never answered my question to you.

Do you commit sins? Serious question, with serious discussion to follow.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hi sbg,

Are we talking about this part?

1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

My objection was to the Straw Man argument that I stated that the ungodly are in Christ, or that others are saying that. I can't imagine where you would find me saying that, since it's pretty much the exact opposite of what I believe and teach.

Since this is not what I believe, therefore it is a Straw Man, you can stand it up, you can knock it down, but it gives a show of victory, in reality it's just a distraction.

I'd love to dispense with distractions.

So let me ask you a question.

Do you commit sins?

Serious question with a serious discussion to follow.

Much love!
mark

Yes that's the verse I was talking about. When I abide in Him (trust Him) I don't sin. When I leave off trusting Him, I sin.

So the whole point to me is not if I may stop trusting (stumble) at some point. And the point is not to look backwards at my previous stumbles. The point to me is to keep trusting so that I won't sin. To me, that is forgetting what lies behind and pressing forward to the goal, not that I think I have already attained to it. I am still running my race of trust. So I reach forward to grab what I have been grabbed for. And if I get my feet tangled in fear of any future stumble in trust, I certainly have already stumbled because I'm fearing and worrying rather than trusting!

 

[farouk]

You say the law condemns those who think they have to earn salvation by what they do. And this is true, because the law condemns every single man ever born.

But if you stop there, you are, as episkopos says, a halfbaked cake. (Which is to say, in other words, if you stop there, you have half the truth.)


The gospel cannot be boiled down to "trust that you will live forever and you will." It also can't be boiled down to
" believe that Jesus died and you will live forever."

You can't present "I don't condemn you" while failing to present "go and sin no more." Otherwise, you are no different than those who marveled over His gracious words but a second later wanted to kill Him.

Faith is more than mental assent; it involves walking the talk in obedience; Paul to the Romans speaks of both 'obedience to the faith' and 'the obedience of faith' at the beginning and the end of the Epistle.

 

[Episkopos]

Faith is more than mental assent; it involves walking the talk in obedience; Paul to the Romans speaks of both 'obedience to the faith' and 'the obedience of faith' at the beginning and the end of the Epistle.

Farouk, is it just me or have your posts been getting a lot better lately?!