The false premise of Universalism.

[marks]

still struggle so much with this, @Episkopos. How does outer darkness remain for ever when He said there is nothing hidden that will not be brought to light, and nothing covered that will not be uncovered? And also Isaiah 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

Psalm 139:11-12 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. [12] Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Hi ViJ,

Personally, well, how someone could believe that our God, our Faithful Creator, Who gave Himself that we can be born His children, how someone could believe that our Creator would then send those children into outer darkness forever . . .

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In not following you there, VIJ, sorry. I don't know what the question is.

Well take
Proverbs 25:21-22 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: [22] For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee

Christ said “I am the bread”. He is the One who gave (Deals out)His bread to the hungry and to the thirsty water to drink. Consider the woman by the well (a Samaritan)and the living water He spoke of...and the by doing so “thou shall heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee” Did He heap coals of fire upon his enemies head? Is that not the: to destroy those who destroy the earth. His weapons being Spiritual and not carnal for the bringing down of vain imaginations. Not sure how this outer darkness and if he is filthy let him stay filthy fits in with all things brought down and into subjection, except corruption does not inherit the incorruptible.

 

[marks]

And God always does things with both a good AND a bad outcome. And that includes they who are under grace. Under the law there is just life and death. But under grace there is either honour or dishonour. The difference is in what we do with what God gives to us.

Romans 9
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Filthy is an eternal destiny?

What does that mean?

I meant to look up the words yesterday in their original greek, but got busy and forgot.! I'm going to do that, but my understanding is that the filthy are the ones who will be surprised. They spoke wrongly about God and, in doing so, messed with mens eternal destinies. I think the Greek word should bear this out, so I will go see now.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Filthy is an eternal destiny?

What does that mean?

No, the eternal destiny would be outer darkness.

 

[Nancy]

Think I'd

still struggle so much with this, @Episkopos. How does outer darkness remain for ever when He said there is nothing hidden that will not be brought to light, and nothing covered that will not be uncovered? And also Isaiah 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

Psalm 139:11-12 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. [12] Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.[/Quote

That is not correct. Only the saints PRESENTLY have the eternal kind of life. But there are three other destinies among they who will be saved. There are the saints who live in the holy city....and there are the saved of the nations (the righteous)..and there are they who wander in outer darkness for ever.

One should realize that the saints are called to rule over the nations....they who God has accepted (will be justified) as righteous. And one should also realize that they who are shamed must live to bear an eternal reproach.

The rest is just human traditions and bad interpretations. The totalitarian two dimensional simplistic view that says only I and they like me I deem worthy of salvation. Fortunately God is more merciful than religious people.

VERY few believers are saints. And this is not just a Catholic thing. The way is far too narrow for most people. But if you can remain humble and do what is right...you can still be accepted by God.

It seems that outer darkness forever would be worse than perishing...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Think I'd

Yes it does! But it answers my question of the verse about how it would be better for Sodom on that day than it would be for others.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No, the eternal destiny would be outer darkness.

Not feeling well today...been struggling with the flu or something. Want to stay on here but my mind won’t allow it. Kind of loopy. more than usual
Will follow along though. Simply put and maybe someone can help...always thought it was the Pharisees, the religious sect with “dead bones” Whitewashing the outside of the cup...whom He told were going into the outer darkness. Always thought it is a gross darkness, a groping blindness, the further reaches from hearing His voice. Again, not saying that is right but only Clarifying a thought of the outer darkness without...harlots closer to entering in before them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So I looked up the words.
Unrighteous - do wrong, be unjust. From a root word meaning wrongness of character, unrighteous, wicked.

Filthy - dirt, moral depravity, filth. From a root word meaning to become dirty, be filthy.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not feeling well today...been struggling with the flu or something. Want to stay on here but my mind won’t allow it. Kind of loopy. more than usual
Will follow along though. Simply put and maybe someone can help...always thought it was the Pharisees, the religious sect with “dead bones” Whitewashing the outside of the cup...whom He told were going into the outer darkness. Always thought it is a gross darkness, a groping blindness, the further reaches from hearing His voice. Again, not saying that is right but only Clarifying a thought of the outer darkness without...harlots closer to entering in before them.

Aww, feel better sis. I had that darn flu a few weeks ago. Blech. It's been very good speaking with you this morning!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So I looked up the words.
Unrighteous - do wrong, be unjust. From a root word meaning wrongness of character, unrighteous, wicked.

Filthy - dirt, moral depravity, filth. From a root word meaning to become dirty, be filthy.

Honestly, the second one sounds worse...

 

[Episkopos]

So I looked up the words.
Unrighteous - do wrong, be unjust. From a root word meaning wrongness of character, unrighteous, wicked.

Filthy - dirt, moral depravity, filth. From a root word meaning to become dirty, be filthy.

Rev. 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

What is implied here is that we keep our garments clean...whiter than snow kind of thing. To have soiled your garment means you can't keep it. Who puts on soiled underwear? I'm thinking here of a permanent baby Christian who has never learned to keep himself pure from this world. And the eternal destiny of being an outcast is about shame and reproach.

Dan. 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here it says...MANY...not all. So this is the first resurrection. Judgment begins at the house of God. This the Bema judgment of Christ...for believers.

 

[Episkopos]

And where do you find in the Bible that God casts His children into outer darkness?

God cast out His people from natural Israel. And we are not more special than they are. So you will have a hard time wrapping your head around the fact that God calls a lot of people...but only a few are deemed worthy of being actual saints. Out of the very SAME lump...God makes vessels of both honour AND dishonour. The same people....the same church...the same family. One is taken and another is left.

Rom. 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[marks]

God cast out His people from natural Israel. And we are not more special than they are. So you will have a hard time wrapping your head around the fact that God calls a lot of people...but only a few are deemed worthy of being actual saints. Out of the very SAME lump...God makes vessels of both honour AND dishonour. The same people....the same church...the same family. One is taken and another is left.

Rom. 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

While I appreciate your taking time to post a response, even so, my question was,

And where do you find in the Bible that God casts His children into outer darkness?

I don't see that you've posted an answer to that question.

 

[Episkopos]

So how does this turn into God casting His children into outer darkness? This to me is completely unlike the Creator I've come to know.

Actually what you have learned in church. The churches are built like businesses...they don't want to upset you...so they downgrade the truth so that carnal people are not offended. THAT is what you have received in the guise of instruction up until now.

But look at Jude...

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.


12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;


13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

 

[Episkopos]

While I appreciate your taking time to post a response, even so, my question was,

And where do you find in the Bible that God casts His children into outer darkness?

I don't see that you've posted an answer to that question.

There are many instances in both testaments. Look up outer darkness....but there are other references....like being spit out or castaway, or rejected...etc. Rejected from God's house. Vessels of shame and dishonour. Even Yom Kippour...with the scape goat sent away into the wilderness.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And where do you find in the Bible that God casts His children into outer darkness?

I said He casts the filthy into the outer darkness. I'm not sure He considers them to be His children, although I think they themselves see themselves as such maybe.

 

[Helen]

God cast out His people from natural Israel. And we are not more special than they are. So you will have a hard time wrapping your head around the fact that God calls a lot of people...but only a few are deemed worthy of being actual saints. Out of the very SAME lump...God makes vessels of both honour AND dishonour. The same people....the same church...the same family. One is taken and another is left.

Rom. 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Those died in the wilderness , because they didn't qualify for the Promised Land. Remember ...Neither did Moses!!

So you are trying to tell us that even though Moses blew it and was not allowed to cross over...Moses was cast out into outer darkness!!!!

Why on earth do people read the OT and just presume that when God judges someone , say even Uzzah who touched the ark...are all "going to hell for eternity".... Shaking my head here in amazement.

 

[Renniks]

Nothing that is presently hidden...the tense here is important. Judgment day doesn't last forever. On that day everything will be exposed.

And God always does things with both a good AND a bad outcome. And that includes they who are under grace. Under the law there is just life and death. But under grace there is either honour or dishonour. The difference is in what we do with what God gives to us.


Rom. 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The lump of clay here is Israel. That's the context.

 

[marks]

God cast out His people from natural Israel. And we are not more special than they are. So you will have a hard time wrapping your head around the fact that God calls a lot of people...but only a few are deemed worthy of being actual saints. Out of the very SAME lump...God makes vessels of both honour AND dishonour. The same people....the same church...the same family. One is taken and another is left.

Rom. 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Whether someone might have a hard time wrapping their heads around something, this is a statement that misdirects away from the question.

I understand if you do not want to answer my question, I really do!

I'm not talking about who God calls special, and who are saints, these are each questions in their own right.

But this verse you've quoted here does not teach that God casts His children into outer darkness. Personally, I find that nowhere in the Bible, and is nothing like the Creator I've come to know.

Much love!