The false premise of Universalism.

[Episkopos]

Those died in the wilderness , because they didn't qualify for the Promised Land. Remember ...Neither did Moses!!

So you are trying to tell us that even though Moses blew it and was not allowed to cross over...Moses was cast out into outer darkness!!!!

Why on earth do people read the OT and just presume that when God judges someone , say even Uzzah who touched the ark...are all "going to hell for eternity".... Shaking my head here in amazement.

Of course not. You are overreacting here and overreaching with your display of outrage. You should understand the judgments of God. But the wilderness is there to teach us something that we would be wise to notice. God grades on a curve...according to what we have been given. Moses wasn't rebellious...but he paid a temporal price for what He did although to us it seems like a trifle. God is just. And I'm not like most people that judge others on where they are going to go. So please don't put that on me.


God has laid out very specific places for the people of His creation. For some...they are destined for reward and honour...and others...from the same group...the same lump...to be outcast in shame and dishonour. And that's just the people of God.

As Peter said...

1 Pet. 4:18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

Of course the saints are abundantly saved.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Rev. 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

What is implied here is that we keep our garments clean...whiter than snow kind of thing. To have soiled your garment means you can't keep it. Who puts on soiled underwear? I'm thinking here of a permanent baby Christian who has never learned to keep himself pure from this world. And the eternal destiny of being an outcast is about shame and reproach.

Dan. 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here it says...MANY...not all. So this is the first resurrection. Judgment begins at the house of God. This the Bema judgment of Christ...for believers.

Something sounds slightly wrong here...

 

[marks]

Actually what you have learned in church.

And speak this on what authority?

You happen to know about my relationship with God?

Or you simply want to disparage me to take attention from the question I had asked?

Why do you post if you don't want to give an answer, and instead, "OH! You just believe what your CEO style church told you."

But saying it is so does not make it so, it only reveals that you don't actually want to engage the point.

But look at Jude...

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

The question was . . .

And where do you find in the Bible that God casts His children into outer darkness?

They feed With you, but where does this passage show God casting His children into outer darkness? I don't see such taught there.

 

[marks]

There are many instances in both testaments. Look up outer darkness....but there are other references....like being spit out or castaway, or rejected...etc. Rejected from God's house. Vessels of shame and dishonour. Even Yom Kippour...with the scape goat sent away into the wilderness.

I'm familiar with these, but none say what you teach.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Rev. 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

What is implied here is that we keep our garments clean...whiter than snow kind of thing. To have soiled your garment means you can't keep it. Who puts on soiled underwear? I'm thinking here of a permanent baby Christian who has never learned to keep himself pure from this world. And the eternal destiny of being an outcast is about shame and reproach.

Dan. 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here it says...MANY...not all. So this is the first resurrection. Judgment begins at the house of God. This the Bema judgment of Christ...for believers.

Something sounds slightly wrong here...

Struggling with it a little bit.
It seems suddenly like a distinction has been lost between the righteous and the holy based on what you said here.

 

[Episkopos]

The lump of clay here is Israel. That's the context.

Of course. But Christians are also grafted into Israel. We are NO BETTER than they...which is a huge hit to the pride of people who have been spoiled and catered to in the institutional religious franchise businesses.

We are also of that one lump. We are ALL one flock. There is no difference in Christ. We have an election of grace...if indeed we have been born of God's Spirit....which is equivalent of the birth INTO election as Israel was.

Notice...

Rom. 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Now compare Israel's natural election (the children of God and His kingdom) to our own spiritual one...

Romans 11:5
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So this is about being in a race....not a done deal. We are just like the Jews...only a remnant of us are going to pass the test.

 

[marks]

...which is a huge hit to the pride of people who have been spoiled and catered to in the institutional religious franchise businesses.

Anyone who has different idea, you just splash with the same bucket of paint . . .

 

[marks]

.if indeed we have been born of God's Spirit....which is equivalent of the birth INTO election as Israel was.

Again, not so, being born of Abraham is not the same as being born from God. God can make children of Abraham from rocks. But even children of Abraham Must be born of God.

 

[Helen]

Of course not. You are overreacting here and overreaching with your display of outrage. You should understand the judgments of God. But the wilderness is there to teach us something that we would be wise to notice. God grades on a curve...according to what we have been given. Moses wasn't rebellious...but he paid a temporal price for what He did although to us it seems like a trifle. God is just. And I'm not like most people that judge others on where they are going to go. So please don't put that on me.


God has laid out very specific places for the people of His creation. For some...they are destined for reward and honour...and others...from the same group...the same lump...to be outcast in shame and dishonour. And that's just the people of God.

As Peter said...

1 Pet. 4:18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

Of course the saints are abundantly saved.

Your discernment is somewhat rusty Epi...

I was far from over-reacting or outraged in my post to you.
Just expressing what I believe. And how I read the scriptures.

I am also fighting the flu, and hardly have the energy to post here, let alone having the energy to be outraged or over-react to anything.

 

[Episkopos]

Again, not so, being born of Abraham is not the same as being born from God. God can make children of Abraham from rocks. But ever children of Abraham Must be born of God.

Exactly! We are those rocks. We are but dust. God has raised us up from nothing...and back to nothing we can go. The ones who realize this and fear...and learn humility...have a chance to remain in the house of God.

Don't be fooled into thinking how special and precious you are. Self-righteousness follows hard on the heals of that. Let God raise you up...in His time. You should abase yourself...not exalt yourself. Wisdom knows what is pleasing to God.

Don't use what God has done to be high minded about how valuable you are...to God. It is HIS work. We are nothing.

 

[Episkopos]

Something sounds slightly wrong here...

Like what?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Like what?

Oh sorry, had to go answer door. I just added to my previous post.

 

[marks]

Exactly! We are those rocks. We are but dust. God has raised us up from nothing...and back to nothing we can go. The ones who realize this and fear...and learn humility...have a chance to remain in the house of God.

Don't be fooled into thinking how special and precious you are. Self-righteousness follows hard on the heals of that. Let God raise you up...in His time. You should abase yourself...not exalt yourself. Wisdom knows what is pleasing to God.

Don't use what God has done to be high minded about how valuable you are...to God. It is HIS work. We are nothing.

Once again, not an answer.

I was asking for a place in the Bible that teaches us that God will cast His Own children into outer darkness. You appear bent to convince me it's so, and yet, you do not show anywhere in Scripture that teaches this.

You cast down the faith of others, yet without authority.

The ones who realize this and fear...and learn humility...have a chance to remain in the house of God.

Is that so? Or is that just another slam? Again, without Scripture, there is no authority.

Don't be fooled into thinking how special and precious you are.

Another personal comment/misdirection. The Bible does not teach what you teach. Besides, you don't think God loves you? And if God loves you, does that not make you special?

You should abase yourself...not exalt yourself.

Good advice for everyone! Actually . . . everyone.

Don't use what God has done to be high minded about how valuable you are...to God. It is HIS work.

Well, of course!

And yet, still, no answer. But again, I understand why you would not want to be in the position of posting Scripture, where God says the same things you do. I haven't found a place either.

Just more of those personal comments to what . . . make me go away?

 

[marks]

Exactly! We are those rocks. We are but dust. God has raised us up from nothing...and back to nothing we can go.

No, that's not it.

You claim that being born again makes us on par with the children of Abraham, and that is not so. To the children of Abraham Jesus said, "You must be born again."

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Struggling with it a little bit.
It seems suddenly like a distinction has been lost between the righteous and the holy based on what you said here.

Here it is epi.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Rev. 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

What is implied here is that we keep our garments clean...whiter than snow kind of thing. To have soiled your garment means you can't keep it. Who puts on soiled underwear? I'm thinking here of a permanent baby Christian who has never learned to keep himself pure from this world. And the eternal destiny of being an outcast is about shame and reproach.

Dan. 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here it says...MANY...not all. So this is the first resurrection. Judgment begins at the house of God. This the Bema judgment of Christ...for believers.

And this is the post I was talking about. So I guess I do not see the righteous as completely spotless...? I see that as the holy.

But I hope you dont take my struggling as disrespect. I respect you a lot. You have shared with me some things that helped me to not be so confused about scripture.

And I realize there are a lot of balls to juggle and I often drop one and become confused. My first gut is to assume I have done that, because time and again that has been the case.

And right now I am completely unsettled because I dont like how you have been spoken to and dont want to be taken as speaking to you in that same manner by my questions.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So then you're talking about those who have not been born again? Maybe I misunderstood.

Well...I'm not extremely comfortable even talking about it really. But I mostly always see what epi says. But if I take it too far, I become uncomfortable because God is the judge and if I try to pin it all down with my limited understanding, I somehow become the judge. So, there you go.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Those died in the wilderness , because they didn't qualify for the Promised Land. Remember ...Neither did Moses!!

So you are trying to tell us that even though Moses blew it and was not allowed to cross over...Moses was cast out into outer darkness!!!!

Why on earth do people read the OT and just presume that when God judges someone , say even Uzzah who touched the ark...are all "going to hell for eternity".... Shaking my head here in amazement.

Of course Moses didn't go to the outer darkness, he was seen at the transfiguration. But he failed to display Gods holiness to the people and so could not enter the promised place and he had received more so more was expected of him. You sort of get one shot in holiness.

That's why it's better to be counted with the righteous than to take on holiness or declare yourself holy when you arent.

 

[Renniks]

So this is about being in a race....not a done deal. We are just like the Jews...only a remnant of us are going to pass the test.

The Jews missed it because they relied on their works for their salvation. Whether we pass the test or not depends on whether we have truly put our faith in Him and not ourselves.

Jeremiah 18:7 If I announce that a certain nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed, 8 but then that nation renounces its evil ways, I will not destroy it as I had planned. 9 And if I announce that I will plant and build up a certain nation or kingdom, 10 but then that nation turns to evil and refuses to obey me, I will not bless it as I said I would.

Obeying God for us is to remain in Christ, that is, to trust him fully and nothing else.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

And where do you find in the Bible that God casts His children into outer darkness?

Did you ever find the verse? only one I can think of is Matthew 8:11-12 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. [12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.