The false premise of Universalism.

[Episkopos]

And this is the post I was talking about. So I guess I do not see the righteous as completely spotless...? I see that as the holy.

But I hope you dont take my struggling as disrespect. I respect you a lot. You have shared with me some things that helped me to not be so confused about scripture.

And I realize there are a lot of balls to juggle and I often drop one and become confused. My first gut is to assume I have done that, because time and again that has been the case.

And right now I am completely unsettled because I dont like how you have been spoken to and dont want to be taken as speaking to you in that same manner by my questions.

Agreed. The righteous are honest, humble and respectful...without all the boasting and claiming to be more than they are. So the modern believers don't see that as important....they are programmed that way. But the righteous, as you say, are not without flaws and weaknesses. Only the holy are able to walk without sin because they are empowered to do so by grace.

So I'm not seeing where these ideas were not upheld?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I am also fighting the flu, and hardly have the energy to post here

keeping you in my prayers. The flu is no joke. Lots of water has helped the most.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Agreed. The righteous are honest, humble and respectful...without all the boasting and claiming to be more than they are. So the modern believers don't see that as important....they are programmed that way. But the righteous, as you say, are not without flaws and weaknesses. Only the holy are able to walk without sin because they are empowered to do so by grace.

So I'm not seeing where these ideas were not upheld?

Well, I guess it was the way you phrased it, as a baby christian who has never learned to keep himself unspotted being cast into outer darkness. And so to my mind, the distinction between righteous and holy blurred, because righteous does not mean without spot or wrinkle.

 

[Episkopos]

Well, I guess it was the way you phrased it, as a baby christian who has never learned to keep himself unspotted being cast into outer darkness. And so to my mind, the distinction between righteous and holy blurred, because righteous does not mean without spot or wrinkle.

Ah! But the righteous are not claiming to be holy. They are humble. We set the judgment by our own claims. By our words we will be justified or condemned. So if you don't claim to be something you're not...no condemnation. Like the Pharisees who said they could see...so their sin remained.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Ah! But the righteous are not claiming to be holy. They are humble. We set the judgment by our own claims. By our words we will be justified or condemned. So if you don't claim to be something you're not...no condemnation. Like the Pharisees who said they could see...so their sin remained.

I guess I assumed the little baby christian in your post who did not manage to keep himself unspotted was humble, haha!!

 

[Episkopos]

I guess I assumed the little baby christian in your post who did not manage to keep himself unsorted was humble, haha!!

A baby Christian is still in the honeymoon phase and God goes easy on us for the first few years. But just like the tree that needed to be dunged in order to bear fruit...we don't have forever to get with the program.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

A baby Christian is still in the honeymoon phase and God goes easy on us for the first few years. But just like the tree that needed to be dunged in order to bear fruit...we don't have forever to get with the program.

You seemed to be throwing him into outer darkness for being spotted. I may have read it wrong...just give me the baby and back away slowly and there wont be no trouble

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And there's that heart of a father/heart of a mother thing I remember you talking about once.

 

[Waiting on him]

So how does this turn into God casting His children into outer darkness? This to me is completely unlike the Creator I've come to know.

Not His children, but rather the old man?i believe to many look at everyone around them as the enemy of God forgetting the enemy of God they once were

 

[justbyfaith]

How does outer darkness remain for ever when He said there is nothing hidden that will not be brought to light, and nothing covered that will not be uncovered?

I think that you are taking that verse out of context.

Everything will be revealed at the judgment; at which time those who are unworthy shall be cast into outer darkness.

The question was . . .

And where do you find in the Bible that God casts His children into outer darkness?

Mat 8:12, But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:13, Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:30, And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

See also the context of these for better understanding.

 

[amadeus]

Do you a whole bible study course? Use google....or give it a few years of study. To help you...look up...and the nations of them who are saved.

LOL! Even so... I was going to say more but had to bite my tongue... not because of you!

 

[amadeus]

If you read carefully you will see the distinction between saints and faithful brethren....between they who are spiritual and they who are not there yet. Nobody begins the Christian walk as mature brethren....and not everyone is equally gifted or has as much faith.

And not everyone uses all that they have as they might!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I struggle a lot with it too. In fact, I was struggling with it just yesterday morning. In Rev, there is reference to 4 different people.

Rev 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

These are to have 4 different outcomes, but only 3 of them are eternal outcomes. The unjust will be annihilated, I think, and death is also done away with. Then 3 eternal destinies remain, after death is done away with - filthy, righteous, holy.

VIJ, the 4 outcomes are shown in the 4 rivers that went out from Eden. The Euphrates will one day dry up. There will be no water there any more. I think it is the outer darkness outcome, but I haven't looked much into it. And by the way, epi was the one who told me about the 4 rivers showing the 4 destinies. I had heard it nowhere before him.

 

[Episkopos]

VIJ, the 4 outcomes are shown in the 4 rivers that went out from Eden. The Euphrates will one day dry up. There will be no water there any more. I think it is the outer darkness outcome, but I haven't looked much into it. And by the way, epi was the one who told me about the 4 rivers showing the 4 destinies. I had heard it nowhere before him.

We see the first river listed as the path that leads to pure gold...like the Bema judgment where the highest reward is gold. (1 Cor. 3) After that it gets more mysterious...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I think that you are taking that verse out of context.

Everything will be revealed at the judgment; at which time those who are unworthy shall be cast into outer darkness.

maybe so. still do not see how “outer darkness” fits with after 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Ephesians 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Manifested, uncovered, revealed ...are they not the same in whatever is hidden will not stay that way but all brought into the “brightness of his coming”?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness:

Romans 3:12-16 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: [14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: [15] Their feet are swift to shed blood: [16] Destruction and misery are in their ways:

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Not His children, but rather the old man?i believe to many look at everyone around them as the enemy of God forgetting the enemy of God they once were

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Romans 2:8-11

(That which is born first, natural and can not receive the things of God)But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

(That which is born of Spirit) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

For there is no respect of persons with God.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[Waiting on him]

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Romans 2:8-11

(That which is born first, natural and can not receive the things of God)But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

(That which is born of Spirit) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

For there is no respect of persons with God.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Agreed, I hear a lot these days of men speaking of their righteous deeds I’m afraid this is what He casts into outer darkness. I’ve heard over and over of this walking in the Spirit as if it’s accomplished of the flesh.... bottom line scripture says walk in love, this is a fruit of the Spirit, in other words walk in it’s fruit love peace joy etc.

He God cast down all vain imagination and strongholds, this is not about our being glorified rather Christ being manifest, a perpetual rebirth of Christ in each born again. Anything that doesn’t align with that is fit for nothing but outer darkness to be destroyed.

 

[amadeus]

Those died in the wilderness , because they didn't qualify for the Promised Land. Remember ...Neither did Moses!!

So you are trying to tell us that even though Moses blew it and was not allowed to cross over...Moses was cast out into outer darkness!!!!

Why on earth do people read the OT and just presume that when God judges someone , say even Uzzah who touched the ark...are all "going to hell for eternity".... Shaking my head here in amazement.

Maybe it was not intended as an attack on epi, but apparently appeared that way to him and to me as well. Be careful in how you choose your words before expressing them. We all have that problem at times for various reasons.

You seem to be are mixing what @Episkopos has said with what you know is regularly taught in many churches and elsewhere, including forums. You don't attend those churches at least in part this reason. The problem with some of those teachings, and likely some of ours too, is that they, and we, do not have all of the answers. We don't have all the pieces and some of the one we do have still don't seem to fit anywhere yet. Ever put together a jigsaw puzzle?

Somewhere along the line when we have only a part of the truth, and much of that perceived through darkened glass, we sometimes let someone else's ideas [or our own] fill in some of the blank spaces rather than waiting on God.

It is very hard to go down to nothing in all that we believe and think we understand so as to allow God to fill gaps at His pace. But that is where, I believe, we need to go regularly. When we come back from there, or are lifted up from there by God, maybe everything will seem the same but sometimes God will have made a very small change so that very silhouette appears differently to our spiritual eyes. But until we have it all, it does remain a silhouette.

Probably none of us are presently in the same place. Some of @VictoryinJesus and @marks and your questions are mine as well. Some of @stunnedbygrace and @Episkopos answers want to fill some of my spaces. Sometimes God uses that method to build us up, but don't count on it and don't conclude someone else must be in error because some of their pieces don't fit what you believe you already have.

Only God's perfect vision initially has all of the pieces fitted in all the right places at exactly the right time. As we grow in and with God our vision should be getting more like His all of the time. Some people calling themselves Christian may not have a growing vision at all. But, let us be very slow to express that about anyone outside our own minds especially with a pointed finger... until we know God wants us to do that.

 

[marks]

Mat 8:12, But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:13, Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:30, And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

See also the context of these for better understanding.

Hi justbyfaith,

Let's take the first one . . .

Matthew 8
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In who are these who come from the east and west?

Much love!