Timtofly
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So there is 1000 years in Paradise between the day Satan is unbound and the day Satan is bound?
The first horseman of the Apocalypse
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Timtofly
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So in name only to preserve God's ability?
These are not the church. Paul said the church is caught up and glorified. These are sealed and witness to those left on earth. Although these 144k are really needed for a revival in the church itself so more will be caught up and glorified. I think those left behind will sorta be mad and flabbergasted they are not male virgins. But then that would destroy the symbolism as well. What do you attribute not being sexually active to if not literally "not sexually active"? Who is pure enough without sin these days? Can you name 12 people without fault, how about 144k?
I agree it is not about genetics. But it is not about claiming these are actual Gentiles from the lost tribes.
I will just stick with the fact it would be easier to find 144k pure Israeli males, than 144k males who are sexually pure. I guess every one has their point to make. Perhaps they all live in the jungles of Africa, and have never seen the modern world. That would probably go over ever better than the other two points.
The word virgin does not mean a sexual virgin in prophetic language. Biblically it means never having been spiritually set apart to any other than Christ. The virgin bride of Christ, betrothed but not yet married, the consummation of the marriage having not yet arrived.
"These are those who were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes." (Revelation 14:4). They are faithful Christians. They did not join themselves to other religions (women).
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Truth7t7
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You'll probably disagree but I think those 144,000 virgins should be understood in terms of the apostasy Paul spoke about as coming immediately before Christ's appearance (2 Thessalonians 2). The strong delusion by which all except the elect (Matthew 24:24) are deceived.
David in NJ
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OK, i read thru Revelation again and am preparing to respond (in our friendship and love in Christ) to where we left off.
Need a little more time as i may read Revelation again.
Peace my good friend and brother
David in NJ
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These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. Rev 14:4
IMHO - i always leaned toward these virgins as not embracing( the two become one) religion(women) and thus defiled by any other besides the Word that became flesh, who died and Rose and is Coming back for us.
They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb
Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor 15:23
Truth7t7
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Truth7t7
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I cant disagree,the strong delusion will be God sending it to the wicked world, to receive the future Man of Sin, they will be damned
2 Thessalonians 2:3-11KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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David in NJ
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David in NJ
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Timtofly
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Pretty sure if they were Israelis, they would not be in the Christian religion. They would be followers of the OT law instead of Christianity.
You are mixing in way too many metaphors.
You would literally be saying they are faithful to the Torah, but not the NT.
I believe the 144,000 only refers to believing Jews, believing Benjamites (two tribes of the house of Judah), and the ten tribes of the saved Ephraimites (Gentiles who are represented in Ephraim/the house of Israel and have been grafted into Israel among the remnant of the Jews and Bejamites).
= twelve tribes. In addition, they only refer to those from the above groups who remain faithful.
You're hooked on genetic ancestry as being the qualifying factor for the identity of the 144,000.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No I am hooked on the fact they are identified by 12 names from Jacob.
They were not harvested with the church body, but left on earth. You have them sealed years before the wrong event, thinking they are going to persevere until that event. These 144k males are the firstfruits of the Millennium. They are the disciples of Christ at the Second Coming.
Instead of 12 the first time, whom God chose by name as firstfruits of the church, these individuals are from every nation as firstfruits of the Millennium. Called out of 12 named tribes of Israel. It never tells us their belief system or religion. But if they were the church, they would have been already harvested. These individuals are the preparation of the Millennium and part of that harvest to live on earth and reign with Christ on earth.
There are no religions in the Millennial Kingdom ruled by the iron rod of Jesus Christ.
Making a distinction of Jew and Gentile is placing the emphasis on genetics, and trying to reconcile genetically who a faithful remnant are. These are chosen by God, and not believers at all.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Read thru Revelation again as well as passing the Gospels & Letters thru memory/mind.
i cannot find a reason for the First Horseman to be Christ other then the Crown and color White.
This, to me, speaks more of the many antichrists spoken of by our Lord in Matt 24 and the other Gospels, all
agreeing with 1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
False Christs False Prophets False Apostles - put on 'sheep clothing = white' to appear as saviors.
Since the Rider has a Crown this speaks of authority - Gold - heavenly authority.
This falls in line with many antichrists and kings and emperors and military leaders who were worshipped as gods and God Himself.
Here are the parts that speak loud and clear - #1 The crown was given to him - by whom?
Jesus would not be given a crown - He is the Word from the beginning - God from the beginning - He does not need a crown given to Him.
In either case, the key - it was given to the rider we call 'him' = him has no name = thus many antichrists
#2 him is not spoken of in the passage = this is would not be the case if it was our Lord and Savior
#3 he went out to conquer with a bow - but no arrows - the bow does not symbolize the Gospel or Delivery Method
the bow is warfare - question is what kind - an evolving warfare
#4 You said this is the Gospel going forth conquering and to conquer - this again speaks of antichrists/rulers/emperors
#5 The Gospel of God comes lowly as a servant riding on a lowly donkey
The Gospel of God is not to conquer the world but to Save us - Salvation thru obedience unto death
The Gospel is not symbolized with a mighty Horse - No, not physical strength
The Symbol of the Gospel is the DOVE - the Holy Spirit - Grace - Peace - Gentleness
#6 The four Horsemen are Judgements upon the world, nobody is being Saved through these Judgements.
#7 The Seals were opened by our Lord Jesus Christ - He is not under the power of the Seal
He is exalted above the Seal and is the One who opens them - thus the Judgements kept under the Seals were under the Lord's Authority
#8 Finally the Conclusion of the matter is in Revelation 19 where the Real King of kings is shown to us - Name included with many Crowns
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
Hello brother. Good to see you back!
I can only ask you to look at it a different way:
Think first about what the seals are: The seals need to be loosed in order to see the contents in the scroll. The final seal needs to be opened before the scroll can be read to us. Christ was the only one found worthy to loose the scroll's seals because He was slain (Revelation 5:1-5).
Chapters 7-22 of the Revelation is the contents of the scroll being read to us - the scroll that can only be read to us once the last of the 7 seals is opened. Therefore the scroll being read to us must be understood in the light of the visions John saw when each seal was opened.. In other words, The seals are about (a) opening the scroll; and (b) opening the understanding of the one who hears the words of the prophecy which is written on the scroll.
With the exception of chapter 12, all the contents of the scroll (chapters 7-19) are the prophecy concerning the final 3.5 years of the Age and the return of Christ, and it must and can only be understood in the light of the visions seen in each seal. It's important to note what we are told in the scroll about the events taking place during this final 3.5 years, without leaving anything out of our mind.
In this regard it's also important to note that the chapter divisions in the New Testament and the Revelation were only added in the year AD 1227, and there are some parts of some chapters in the Revelation which should be included in the previous chapter: For example, Revelation 19:1-4 belong in chapter 18 with the destruction of Babylon the Great.
Likewise Revelation 14:1-5 belongs with Revelation 13:11-18. In fact the entire chapter (Revelation 14) should begin with Revelation 13:11, because Revelation 14:1-5 is speaking about those who have the seal of God who did not worship the beast or its image (as is also mentioned in Revelation 13:6).
It's very important to note that two of the three things we are told about in Revelation 14 as coming before the harvest is gathered, are the following:
And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people, saying with a great voice, Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 11
3 And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.
7 And when they complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them.
In other words, among other things THE SCROLL TELLS US THAT THE GOSPEL WILL BE GOING OUT IN POWER DURING THE FINAL 3.5 YEARS OF THE AGE
Please also see what comes below the heading "NOT AN ACTUAL PERSON" in my reply.
Why do you ignore Revelation 14:14? In Revelation 14:14 Jesus is crowned with a stéphanos (a crown of victory and honour which was given to Him by God). It’s important to note that in this passage His appearance is in the form of the Son of man (who, as we know, has been given a name above all names).
But in Revelation 19:19 Christ is crowned with MANY diádēma. In this passage He is returning as King of (all) kings and Lord of (all) Lords (see Revelation 19:16).
Note: Jesus has been given a name above all names. As the victorious son of Man He is given the stéphanos He's wearing in Revelation 14:14, but as King of (all) kings and Lord of (all) Lords the MANY diádēma belong to Him.
Therefore your argument about the stéphanos crown being given to the rider on the first horse does not hold. Not only does it not hold in that instance, but it does not hold because the crowns on each of the following are also stéphanos:
Revelation 12:1 (crown of 12 stars on the woman's head);
Revelation 2:10 & 3:11 (the crowns of the saints);
Revelation 4:4 & 10 (the crowns of the 24 elders).
Revelation 14:14 (Christ).
Your protest regarding the fact that the rider of the white horse is given a gold stéphanos crown also does not hold , because the gold crown corresponds to the theme in the Revelation, and Jesus is crowned with stéphanos of gold in Revelation 14:14, and gold is only used in the following:
Rev.1:13 & 20 & 2:1 (golden lamp-stands, golden band around the breast of the Son of man);
Rev.3:18 (gold tried in the fire);
Rev.4:4 (golden crowns of the 24 elders in heaven);
Rev.5:18 (golden vials full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints);
Rev. 8:3 & 9:13 (golden censer, golden altar);
Rev. 14:14 (golden crown of the Son of man);
Rev.15:6 (golden bands around the angels' chests);
Rev.15:7 (golden bowls of God's wrath);
Rev.21:15 (golden reed to measure the holy city, new Jerusalem);
Rev. 21:18 (the New Jerusalem is a city of pure gold);
Rev.21:21 (the New Jerusalem's street is of pure gold).
"I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see." (Revelation 3:18) (Gold is a metal which must be smelted in great heat in order to purify it).
The only exception is the crowns worn by the locusts that are something like stéphanos and similar to gold (fake crowns and fools gold):
"Now the locusts looked like horses equipped for battle. On their heads were something like crowns (stéphanos) similar to gold, and their faces looked like men's faces." (Revelation 9:7)
NOT AN ACTUAL PERSON
Then there is also this assumption that you seem to be making that the rider represents an actual person. It does not. The horses are not literal horses. The seals are symbolizing the events written on the scroll, and the riders of the horses represent either the powers behind those events (as in the first and second horsemen), or the cause of the events being described in the seal (as in the third and fourth seals).
Remember that among other things, the scroll tells us of the gospel going out during the final 3.5 years of the Age. The seals open the scroll, and the visions seen in the seals open our understanding to the events that are written on the scroll.
Since the scroll tells us that the gospel will be going out during the final 3.5 years, to me there's no reason whatsoever to assume that the white horse going forth conquering and to conquer does not represent the gospel and the activities of the two witnesses (or at least the activities of saints).
Jesus' head and hair appear white like wool (Rev 1:14).
The stone with a saint's name written on it is a white stone (Rev 2:17).
The white raiment of the saints (Rev.3:5 & 18; 6:11; 7:9, 13 & 14).
The white clothing of the 24 elders (Rev 4:4).
The white clothing of angels (Rev 15:6).
The white raiment of the bride of Christ (Rev 19:8).
The Great White Throne (Rev 20:11).
Christ seated on a white cloud (Rev 14:14).
Christ returns on a white horse, leading His armies (Rev 19:11).
Christ's armies are riding white horses (Rev 19:14).
The first horseman of the Apocalypse is riding a white horse (Revelation 6:2).
THE FIRST TWO HORSEMEN ARE OPPOSING FORCES
I think that maybe? the biggest problem with the view you express, is that you seem to see the second horse as something that follows the first, like events which follow naturally the one after the other. But I do not believe this is the case. The first two horses represent two opposing forces in the last 3.5 years of the Age: The gospel, and the beast/Antichrist.
@David in NJ I edited regarding the chapter divisions (this is the last edit).
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Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
The Lamb has opened the seven seals and disclosed relevant factors that right now are contributing to the reality of life. The follow-through from the Divine Order disclosed by the Lamb's opening of the scroll lies ahead. . .
Dragonsville
Rev 13:4-10 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" (5) And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. (6) Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. (7) It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. (8) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (9) If anyone has an ear, let him hear. (10) He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
@Stumpmaster With the exception of Revelation 12, everything written in the Revelation from chapter 7 through 19 is talking about that period only.
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Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Hypothetical Headlines:
- Dragon Authorises World-wide War With Saints.
- Saints Overcome By World-wide Antichrist Alliance.
- President Of Planet Earth Performs Amazing Miracles, Millions Flock To Receive His Mark.
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Why are you calling them hypothetical? They're future headlines. Except that it's maybe the Pope, maybe Israel or maybe Israel's false Messiah who performs miracles causing millions to flock to receive his mark. Whatever the case regarding the identity of him/it/they may be, it's the false prophet doing the miracles.
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