The folly of Preterism

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WPM

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Nice try, but we are speaking of the first resurrection of the church, not the first resurrection of a man, Jesus Christ.

I also made this clear, so you simply have no integrity. That's the nature of people who just copy and paste personal ideologies, and then purposely change what others say in response to it.


No problem. I've already concluded by this post the worthlessness of dealing with you.

It's sufficient for me to have learned your main error in symbolizing telos, rather than taking it as definitive and literal.

The Millennium of Christ is literal, because it's physical time of expiration is literal, just as the cross of Jesus. Telos is never used symbolically, nor for symbolic things. And so, to change the meaning of the word to symbolize it, does the same for both the Millinium and the cross.

It's the nature of the beast to do so:

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws.

Changing of times, or the meaning of time itself, is changing the natural order of things, including the meaning of words, in order to teach false doctrine and make false prophecy.

The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. The word eschatos simply means end, last, farthest and final. These are two very incontrovertible words.

But, when is “the end” (telos)? When is going to be the final (or eschatos) day of history? When indeed is the “the last day”? When is this current decaying and dying arrangement going to be changed?

Scripture clearly and repeatedly depicts the second coming as the “last (or end, farthest or final) day (singular) of “the last (or end, farthest or final) days” (plural). It also depicts it as “the end.” The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing.

They have a habit of diluting the meaning of the phrase “the last day” to the degree that they literally strip it of its obvious, straightforward and widely accepted meaning.

Likewise, the end of this world and the regeneration of this earth is repeatedly shown to correspond with the end of this age - at the second coming. Time and history find themselves sandwiched in between these two great events. Simply put: “this age” refers to “time” and “the age to come” or the “hereafter” refers to “eternity.”

This contradicts numerous Scriptures. It is not just that much Scripture depicts the second coming as “the end of the age/world,” it is that it labels it as “the last day” or simply “the end.” The Bible shows the resurrection/judgment of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked to occur on “the last (or final) day” of “the last days” when Jesus comes.

Significantly, in all the references re the last day above, the wording in the original for “last day” is always identical – eschatee heemara. The Greek word eschatee used here comes from the root word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.
 
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Always Believing

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How can there be 2 first resurrections that are separated by 2000 years+?
Jesus' resurrection is never called the first resurrection. Heis the firstborn from the dead to show He is the first man resurrected from the dead.

The first resurrection of the blessed church is in rev 20, which is followed at least a thousand years later by the rest of the dead.
 

WPM

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You can call it what you wish about a matter of time, but the word telos means it will literally end.

The word telos is a definitive word having to do with physical endings only. There is nothing


Then you teach the Lord's eternal spiritual realm will expire and literally end.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.

His Millennial reign will literally end, even as His time on the cross was finished.

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish. This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

Jesus delivers up the kingdom to His Father is at the end of the age/world when He returns. Jesus caught in Matthew 13:40-43: “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end [Gr. sunteleia] of this world (or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Matthew 13:40-43 corresponds with 1 Corinthians 15:22-24. They prove that the glory and fullness of the kingdom is experienced by God’s elect at the second coming. Both of these passages show that Jesus will return at “the end.” The Greek word used in Matthew 13:40 for “the end” is sunteleia meaning the entire completion or consummation of a dispensation. The word telos is coupled with and prefixed to the popular Greek word sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness. The word carries the overall meaning of the entire end. What is more, the fact that the kingdom is called “the kingdom of their Father” at the end of the world/age tells us that the kingdom has been finally and eternally delivered up to the Father.
 
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WPM

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You can call it what you wish about a matter of time, but the word telos means it will literally end.

The word telos is a definitive word having to do with physical endings only. There is nothing


Then you teach the Lord's eternal spiritual realm will expire and literally end.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.

His Millennial reign will literally end, even as His time on the cross was finished.
The Apostle Paul instructs the believer in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 to “come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end [Gr. telos], that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

No one can dispute that that he coming of the Lord is connected here to “the end.” We can see here how the phrases “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,” “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ” and “the end” are depicted as synonymous. The second coming is depicted throughout the Word as a climactic event that ushers in the conclusion of time. Within this teaching is a comforting promise for every child of God that that Christ shall “confirm” or establish or secure us “unto the end.”

Wayne Grudem interprets this verse, “Here he [Paul] connects the possession of spiritual gifts and their situation in the history of redemption (waiting for Christ's return), suggesting that gifts are given to the church for the period between Christ's ascension and his return” (pg. 1019).

Grudem continues: “Paul saw the gifts as a temporary provision made to equip believers for ministry until the Lord returned” (pg. 1035).

When Christ comes the gifts will be rendered unnecessary. They will be obsolete. We shall then be perfected and will have no need to operate in any gift. Christ will be all-in-all.

In Matthew 24, Jerusalem was on the cusp of experiencing utter destruction, including the removal of their temple (the center of their religious worship). Moreover, that loss would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The disciples asked two questions in Matthew 24 as they stood in front of the still-standing temple complex.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming [Gr. parousia], and of the end [Gr. sunteleías or completion, or consummation] of the world [Gr. aion]?”

The word telos, used in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 and 15:24, is also found in the above passage being coupled to, and prefixed with, the popular Greek word sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness. The word carries the overall meaning of the entire end.

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming. Notwithstanding, there is much detail about the days that precede His return.

Premils and Preterists do not believe that “the end” refers to the actual end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It refers to the completion. It is the termination point of a thing.

When Scripture simply talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then theologians universally agree it is talking about “the beginning” of time/this age/creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this, many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason probably is because it cuts across a lot of end-time theology they have been taught. However, both should be treated similarly.

Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

Jesus response to His disciples in Matthew 24:6 and 13-14 is notable: “ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end [Gr. telos] is not yet ... But he that shall endure unto the end [Gr. telos], the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end [Gr. telos] come.”

“The end of the age” is normally described as “the end.” Those that endure to the end are promised a glorious reward. The true child of God will persevere to the end because that is his nature. The false professor will not.

The redeemed will be on earth right up until the end where they will be rewarded by being given power over the nations. This is the great and final judgment where Christ pores out final and eternal justice. This is

Revelation 2:26-27: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end [Gr. telos], to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.”

There is no reward awaiting these proud Christ-rejecters. When a pot is broken with an iron rod it is destroyed, not subjugated. It's state changes completely and it does not continue in its prior state. When therefore the wicked are “broken,” “dashed to pieces,” “cut off,” then “the wicked shall be no more” at the second coming. This is not an exercise in rulership, subjugation, or discipline; but rather their total obliteration; thus, the meaning of the analogy of the rod and the pottery. The vivid picture painted is of the potter destroying an unwanted useless vessel.

Hebrews 3:14, says, “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end [Gr. telos].”

Hebrews 6:11 says, “And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end [Gr. telos].”

Revelation 2:26 says, “he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end [Gr. telos], to him will I give power over the nations.”

The Christian will therefore remain on earth “unto the end.” Here in these passages, he is commanded to be “stedfast unto the end,” “hope unto the end,” to keep God’s “works unto the end.”
 
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WPM

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You can call it what you wish about a matter of time, but the word telos means it will literally end.

The word telos is a definitive word having to do with physical endings only. There is nothing


Then you teach the Lord's eternal spiritual realm will expire and literally end.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.

His Millennial reign will literally end, even as His time on the cross was finished.
The Apostle Paul instructs the believer in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 to “come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end [Gr. telos], that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

No one can dispute that that he coming of the Lord is connected here to “the end.” We can see here how the phrases “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,” “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ” and “the end” are depicted as synonymous. The second coming is depicted throughout the Word as a climactic event that ushers in the conclusion of time. Within this teaching is a comforting promise for every child of God that that Christ shall “confirm” or establish or secure us “unto the end.”

Wayne Grudem interprets this verse, “Here he [Paul] connects the possession of spiritual gifts and their situation in the history of redemption (waiting for Christ's return), suggesting that gifts are given to the church for the period between Christ's ascension and his return” (pg. 1019).

Grudem continues: “Paul saw the gifts as a temporary provision made to equip believers for ministry until the Lord returned” (pg. 1035).

When Christ comes the gifts will be rendered unnecessary. They will be obsolete. We shall then be perfected and will have no need to operate in any gift. Christ will be all-in-all.

In Matthew 24, Jerusalem was on the cusp of experiencing utter destruction, including the removal of their temple (the center of their religious worship). Moreover, that loss would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The disciples asked two questions in Matthew 24 as they stood in front of the still-standing temple complex.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming [Gr. parousia], and of the end [Gr. sunteleías or completion, or consummation] of the world [Gr. aion]?”

The word telos, used in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 and 15:24, is also found in the above passage being coupled to, and prefixed with, the popular Greek word sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness. The word carries the overall meaning of the entire end.

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming. Notwithstanding, there is much detail about the days that precede His return.

Premils and Preterists do not believe that “the end” refers to the actual end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It refers to the completion. It is the termination point of a thing.

When Scripture simply talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then theologians universally agree it is talking about “the beginning” of time/this age/creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this, many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason probably is because it cuts across a lot of end-time theology they have been taught. However, both should be treated similarly.

Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

Jesus response to His disciples in Matthew 24:6 and 13-14 is notable: “ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end [Gr. telos] is not yet ... But he that shall endure unto the end [Gr. telos], the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end [Gr. telos] come.”

“The end of the age” is normally described as “the end.” Those that endure to the end are promised a glorious reward. The true child of God will persevere to the end because that is his nature. The false professor will not.

The redeemed will be on earth right up until the end where they will be rewarded by being given power over the nations. This is the great and final judgment where Christ pores out final and eternal justice. This is

Revelation 2:26-27: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end [Gr. telos], to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.”

There is no reward awaiting these proud Christ-rejecters. When a pot is broken with an iron rod it is destroyed, not subjugated. It's state changes completely and it does not continue in its prior state. When therefore the wicked are “broken,” “dashed to pieces,” “cut off,” then “the wicked shall be no more” at the second coming. This is not an exercise in rulership, subjugation, or discipline; but rather their total obliteration; thus, the meaning of the analogy of the rod and the pottery. The vivid picture painted is of the potter destroying an unwanted useless vessel.
Jesus' resurrection is never called the first resurrection. Heis the firstborn from the dead to show He is the first man resurrected from the dead.

The first resurrection of the blessed church is in rev 20, which is followed at least a thousand years later by the rest of the dead.

More lies. Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Amils believe in corroboration. Multiple Scripture proves that the first resurrection of Jesus occurred 2000 years ago.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Jesus' resurrection is never called the first resurrection.
You should try thinking first before you post. The Greek words translated as "first resurrection" in Revleation 20 are protos (first) anastasis (resurrection). The only other verse in scripture where those two words can be found together is here:

Acts 26:23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead (protos anastasis), would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
 

Always Believing

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The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. The word eschatos simply means end, last, farthest and final. These are two very incontrovertible words.

But, when is “the end” (telos)? When is going to be the final (or eschatos) day of history?
And so, you don't try to change the meaning of telos into something symbolic. There's something to say for that.

It doesn't matter exactly when, but only that it literally ends.

Those who say His Millennium reign on earth is His spiritual eternal reign, are saying his everlasting kingdom will definitely end.
 

ScottA

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Are you saying that you are not a preterist? Do you believe in a future, bodily coming of Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the future mass bodily resurrection of all of the dead in Christ when He returns?
I've been perfectly clear.

People apparently don't even know what a Preterist is. No, I am not a Preterist. Preterists have just picked a time that makes most sense to them, and believe that everything was all over in AD 70. I have never said that...but have clearly said that both "we were" crucified with Christ and "but each one in his own order" are true just as it is written. The problem is, because of false religious doctrine, most of Christendom has been taught and believe a "lie" (that foretold lie that causes strong delusion)--because they have not and cannot reconcile these clearly stated biblical truths. And the best that some can do is call names and point fingers without considering the log in their own eye.

When these biblical truths are actually reconciled, the answers to your other questions should easily fall into place.
 

ScottA

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The notion of purgatory is an unbiblical doctrine from hell, giving people a false hope of being saved after physically dying in unbelief. Israel of faith, as I've already told you, are those who died in faith (in Christ) believing the promise of the Messiah who would come. The old covenant faithful saints could not spiritually ascend to heaven with Christ until after Christ defeated both sin and death. By His blood shed on the cross, where Christ gave Himself a ransom for all sin, and by His resurrection proving death could not hold Him for He has power over death. And now since His coming all who die in Him have been delivered from bondage to sin and death, and in death spiritually ascend to heaven a living soul to wait for the Kingdom of God in heaven to be complete. Then together all the saints will be perfected together with immortality and incorruptible bodies fit for life with Christ forever on the new earth.
There is no "waiting." Time is an illusion.

First you said there is no purgatory (no waiting), but then you say they "have been delivered", then you say they "wait." Sounds a lot like purgatory doctrine.

Certainly, that is the way the world would view it--but salvation and resurrection are not of the world. Do you not see that the time terms of this world do not [actually] apply?
 
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Always Believing

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The Apostle Paul instructs the believer in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 to “come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end [Gr. telos], that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

No one can dispute that that he coming of the Lord is connected here to “the end.” We can see here how the phrases “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,” “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ” and “the end” are depicted as synonymous. The second coming is depicted throughout the Word as a climactic event that ushers in the conclusion of time. Within this teaching is a comforting promise for every child of God that that Christ shall “confirm” or establish or secure us “unto the end.”

Wayne Grudem interprets this verse, “Here he [Paul] connects the possession of spiritual gifts and their situation in the history of redemption (waiting for Christ's return), suggesting that gifts are given to the church for the period between Christ's ascension and his return” (pg. 1019).

Grudem continues: “Paul saw the gifts as a temporary provision made to equip believers for ministry until the Lord returned” (pg. 1035).

When Christ comes the gifts will be rendered unnecessary. They will be obsolete. We shall then be perfected and will have no need to operate in any gift. Christ will be all-in-all.

In Matthew 24, Jerusalem was on the cusp of experiencing utter destruction, including the removal of their temple (the center of their religious worship). Moreover, that loss would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The disciples asked two questions in Matthew 24 as they stood in front of the still-standing temple complex.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming [Gr. parousia], and of the end [Gr. sunteleías or completion, or consummation] of the world [Gr. aion]?”

The word telos, used in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 and 15:24, is also found in the above passage being coupled to, and prefixed with, the popular Greek word sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness. The word carries the overall meaning of the entire end.

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming. Notwithstanding, there is much detail about the days that precede His return.

Premils and Preterists do not believe that “the end” refers to the actual end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It refers to the completion. It is the termination point of a thing.

When Scripture simply talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then theologians universally agree it is talking about “the beginning” of time/this age/creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this, many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason probably is because it cuts across a lot of end-time theology they have been taught. However, both should be treated similarly.

Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

Jesus response to His disciples in Matthew 24:6 and 13-14 is notable: “ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end [Gr. telos] is not yet ... But he that shall endure unto the end [Gr. telos], the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end [Gr. telos] come.”

“The end of the age” is normally described as “the end.” Those that endure to the end are promised a glorious reward. The true child of God will persevere to the end because that is his nature. The false professor will not.

The redeemed will be on earth right up until the end where they will be rewarded by being given power over the nations. This is the great and final judgment where Christ pores out final and eternal justice. This is

Revelation 2:26-27: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end [Gr. telos], to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.”

There is no reward awaiting these proud Christ-rejecters. When a pot is broken with an iron rod it is destroyed, not subjugated. It's state changes completely and it does not continue in its prior state. When therefore the wicked are “broken,” “dashed to pieces,” “cut off,” then “the wicked shall be no more” at the second coming. This is not an exercise in rulership, subjugation, or discipline; but rather their total obliteration; thus, the meaning of the analogy of the rod and the pottery. The vivid picture painted is of the potter destroying an unwanted useless vessel.
More overblown whatever about the false amil prophecy of the end of all flesh on earth at the Lord's second coming.

What will end is His physical reign on earth a thousand years afterward. Saying that earthly kingdom of the Lord's, is His eternal reign today, makes His everlasting kingdom come to an end.
 

ScottA

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You are so far off base that it just boggles my mind. The order Paul alluded to was CHRIST FIRST (Christ the firstfruits) and then next in order are those who belong to Him at His second coming. NOWHERE does Paul indicate that each individual gets resurrected in order. He made it VERY CLEAR that ALL of the dead in Christ will be resurrected AT THE SAME TIME which will be when Christ comes again. You are reading things into 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 that are not there.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

When it says "each in turn" it's talking about Christ being first and then next in order being "those who belong to him" being resurrected "when he comes". He has not come yet!

The dead in Christ will all be resurrected at the same time when He does come. Paul taught that here as well:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

This has clearly not yet happened. This indicates that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected AT THE SAME TIME right after Jesus descends from heaven. Has He descended from heaven yet? Clearly not! You can't possibly reconcile your beliefs with passages like this.
Again...you are not even hearing yourself.

You just said the dead in Christ "will be" resurrected--as if Christ has not already been resurrected. You have reconciled nothing!
 

Always Believing

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Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus,
You teach the finality of His eternal reign and everlasting kingdom at His return. Scripture prophecies the expiration of His physical reign on earth, a thousand years after His return.

in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish. This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

From a careful study of these expressions you will see that what is referred to as “this age/time” has a defined end, whereas the “the age to come” has none. The reason for this is that the termination of “this age” brings an end to time, whereas the ushering in the “the age to come” brings in the eternal.

To inherit the new earth is actually to be qualified to populate it. Only the new creation can inherit the new creation. The new glorified incorrupt earth is not for mortals. It is not for the wicked. It is for the incorupt redeemed. It is for the glorified saints.

Jesus delivers up the kingdom to His Father is at the end of the age/world when He returns. Jesus caught in Matthew 13:40-43: “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end [Gr. sunteleia] of this world (or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Matthew 13:40-43 corresponds with 1 Corinthians 15:22-24. They prove that the glory and fullness of the kingdom is experienced by God’s elect at the second coming. Both of these passages show that Jesus will return at “the end.” The Greek word used in Matthew 13:40 for “the end” is sunteleia meaning the entire completion or consummation of a dispensation. What is more, the fact that the kingdom is called “the kingdom of their Father” at the end of the world/age tells us that the kingdom has been finally and eternally delivered up to the Father.
You guys really do love to copy and paste. I really don't think you care if anyone actually wades through all this oft repeated stuff. I know I don't.
 

Always Believing

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More lies. Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6),
That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

The first man to rise from the dead. Not the first resurrection, that is of His saints.
 

Always Believing

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Acts 26:23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead (protos anastasis), would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
The first man to rise from the dead, not the first resurrection, that all them who have part in are blessed.

Jesus is the only one that had part in His own resurrection from the dead.

In any case, His kingdom reign on earth will expire after a thousand years. Saying it is His eternal kingdom today makes it expire at some time in the future.
 

WPM

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That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

The first man to rise from the dead. Not the first resurrection, that is of His saints.

You are fighting with Scripture. Your argument is falling apart.
 

WPM

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You teach the finality of His eternal reign and everlasting kingdom at His return. Scripture prophecies the expiration of His physical reign on earth, a thousand years after His return.


You guys really do love to copy and paste. I really don't think you care if anyone actually wades through all this oft repeated stuff. I know I don't.

No. You have no answer to the facts. That is why you run from them. You avoid every Scripture, argument and post. No wonder so many are abandoning Premil.
 
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WPM

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More overblown whatever about the false amil prophecy of the end of all flesh on earth at the Lord's second coming.

What will end is His physical reign on earth a thousand years afterward. Saying that earthly kingdom of the Lord's, is His eternal reign today, makes His everlasting kingdom come to an end.

Avoidance is your MO. That is what you must do to sustain your error.
 

Always Believing

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Well, it's been fun. I've never seen so much abundance of scholarship and weeping and gnashing of teeth over one little word of prophecy, that is as a great and high rock, that cannot be gotten around, nor pounded to the ground by false prophecy of Scripture.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.

If it's the Lord's eternal kingdom on earth that expires, then His eternal kingdom is not so eternal, but is dependent on being on earth.

If it's His physical kingdom that expires, then His physical kingdom is only for a thousand years, before the earth itself passes away.

Most Christians, like me, would probably like to see it go on longer, but some can't stand it going on at all.

Amillennialism is weird like that.