The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

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WPM

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Paul from what source material do you glean your information? Do you have any books or publications you recommend. I have read some on the Gnostics they were most fanatical in corrupting the word of God with their own translations and falsifying truthful texts. But I’ve never come across their views on their covenant beliefs. I’d be interested to know.

I've just read through the actual online works of the early Church fathers gradually over the course of 14 years. I've read different books and different articles online that have caused me to do narrower searches for material I don't have.
 
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Prim

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I've just read through the actual online works of the early Church fathers gradually over the course of 14 years. I've read different books and different articles online that has caused me to do narrower searches for material I don't have.
Ok thank you I’ll have to do some deeper research myself. The church fathers be much big. The church fathers and pre tribulation I will search
 

Timtofly

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All we had before that was Chiliasm, which was more akin to Amil, believing in a new perfect impending arrangement.
Which is only your interpretive opinion. When pointed out you get defensive, and claim we are using our opinion. Well dah. Your opinion is no less biased than any other human's opinion. You really think Jesus is going to reign for 1,000 years on a sin scorched, desolate, probably nuclear wasteland? We accept your burnt to a crisp heaven and earth at the Second Coming. But you refuse to budge on Scripture that claims a newly created heaven and earth for the Millennium Kingdom. Obviously those early chiliast pointed out a newly restored heaven and earth of perfection. That is not modern day Amil. You all don't even accept Chiliasm. You claim this "chilia" started at the Cross, not the Second Coming. It is not chiliasm, but indefinitism.

When you prove the early church fathers saw the first coming as the beginning of this chiliast reign, you have your first early church amil teachings. Otherwise they accepted Satan was bound to a detain degree during their days, but will totally be bound at the Second Coming, or destroyed. But later allowed access. So none of your quotes have indicated they knew more than we accept today, no matter the flavor of eschatology.

You have to remember that amil is a denial of Revelation 20, not a "let's call it something else", to make that denial more palatable. You need to point out some place in history where your point, which you claim no pre-mill understands or misrepresents, is taught. No one here misrepresents this indefinitism. We only point out how it is wrong according to Scripture. Then you call that avoidance.

Yes, us pre-mill avoid the error that teaches the first coming is the beginning of the 1,000 years in Revelation 20.
 

Randy Kluth

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No it is not. Quite the opposite. I am the one taking each ECF at their word.

No, you're not! You're arguing only based on what we have remaining of the works of the Church Fathers. And then you're drawing conclusions that assume that is all they had.

For example, you say the earliest Chiliasts were largely Amillennialists because they didn't speak much about the binding of Satan at the 2nd Coming, though I believe Irenaeus did at least this much. You argue that they didn't speak much of the mortality and sin nature of those in the Millennium, though you don't have a clue whether or not such descriptions actually existed. You just assume they were never said.

You can't draw conclusions from what you don't know! It is much more natural to view the Chiliasts as consistent about their belief that Rev 20 is real, with a real Millennium, with real people being ruled over, and with a real binding of Satan.

Sadly for you, your beliefs are traced back to the early heretics who were crystal clear in their Premil beliefs.

That has been soundly refuted. My beliefs, which is Premil, is based on Rev 20, and was confirmed by the ancient Chiliasts who completely rejected Premil heretics.

As for your unsubstantiated claims about Irenaeus, that has been repeatedly and suitably refuted....
Like ancient and modern Amillennialists, Irenaeus believed in the current binding of Satan.

This is a diversion. Regardless of the common belief that the principle of the "binding of the strong man" applied to the Cross, it has nothing whatsoever to do with denial of the "binding of Satan" at the 2nd Coming. I've told you this repeatedly, but you're just doubling down.

I'm not going to read your repetitions and pasted copies. I've read them before, and answered them in detail. This shows nothing new at all. If this is designed to show something to others, have at it.
 

Timtofly

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It is not just the redeemed that he believes are going to be glorified when Jesus comes, in keeping with Scripture, and in concert with Amils, he tells us repeatedly and in crystal clear terms that creation is finally delivered from corruption when Jesus appears. How could he say it any clearer? Honestly! You are so besotted by Premil that you cannot objectively look at this subject. This is a strong and central theme of his teaching. He further teaches:

It is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: “For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God” (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32:1).​

This reference to that “primeval condition” is taking us back to the beginning where Adam enjoy perfect union and communion with God on an incorrupt earth. This is what Irenaeus sees returning at the second coming. Speaking of the resurrection of the just, he submits: “they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated.” The earth, the writer anticipates, is only for the righteous. He affirms: “It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous.” There is no allowance, as modern-day Premillennialism argues, for the curse, the wicked wickedness, or Satan to blight the new earth. This thousand-year era is depicted as the Sabbath reign of Christ and the righteous.

Irenaeus also advocated that it is fitting that the resurrected saints would reign in the same world where they had labored and suffered bodily. Where they once endured pain and bondage, they would enjoy freedom and authority. Man and creation are portrayed as being in perfect sync. The one notable aspect of early Chiliasm, which distinguishes it from modern Premillennialism, is its view of a future millennial earth. The early Chiliasts expected a perfect regenerated earth free of sin, sinners, Satan and the curse. Modern-day Premillennialism locates all of this on its future millennial earth.

Manifestly, this writer sees the wound of the curse being finally healed when Jesus returns. Death is terminated forever. Like Amillennialists, he believed the curse will be eliminated at Christ’s coming. Note, he teaches that “the righteous” who enter the regenerated earth are the glorified saints “rising from the dead.”

Irenaeus states:

The Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man [Antichrist ] and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 30:4).​

Irenaeus depicts the age to under the idea of a sabbath rest for the redeemed alone. He viewed a future millennium as the seventh day porchway into the eternal realm. The picture being portrayed here is that of a perfect environment consisting perfected beings who are at total rest. This is a picture of millennial bliss. There is no allowance for the wicked or wickedness in this unspoiled environment. In fact: they are banished to "the lake of fire" whilst the redeemed are said to enjoy perfect bliss.

Irenaeus further teaches:

He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life.” For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this world, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 33:2).​

Again, the millennium is shown here to be prepared alone for “the righteous.” It is said to be their reward. Irenaeus’ millennium is completely different to that envisioned by modern-day Premillennialists. Whilst he believed in a millennial period after the coming of Christ he saw a perfect incorruptible transitionary period that would simply be porch-way for the redeemed (alone) into the eternal state. This would be a time totally free of the wicked, wickedness and corruption: “the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead; when also the creation, having been renovated and set free.”

Irenaeus elaborates on the early Chiliast expectation in a future millennium:

For as it is God truly who raises up man, so also does man truly rise from the dead, and not allegorically … and shall go forwards and flourish in the times of the kingdom, in order that he may be capable of receiving the glory of the Father (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 35:2).​

The millennium was a final step before the new heaven and new earth.

He enlarges:

That the whole creation shall, according to God’s will, obtain a vast increase, that it may bring forth and sustain fruits such [as we have mentioned], Isaiah declares: “And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every prominent hill, water running everywhere in that day, when many shall perish, when walls shall fall. And the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, seven times that of the day, when He shall heal the anguish of His people, and do away with the pain of His stroke.” Now “the pain of the stroke” means that inflicted at the beginning upon disobedient man in Adam, that is, death; which [stroke] the Lord will heal when He raises us from the dead, and restores the inheritance of the fathers (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 34:2).​

Irenaeus does not see any more death after the second coming. With the glorification of believers and their population of the millennial earth, death is terminated.

He elsewhere taught:

Christ, who was called the Son of God before the ages, was manifested in the fullness of time, in order that He might cleanse us through His blood, who were under the power of sin, presenting us as pure sons to His Father, if we yield ourselves obediently to the chastisement of the Spirit. And in the end of time He shall come to do away with all evil, and to reconcile all things, in order that there may be an end of all impurities (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, XXXIX).​

Irenaeus sums up Paul’s teaching about the next age in Against Heresies Book III, Chapter VII, 1:

The unbelievers of this world … shall not inherit the future age of incorruption.

Irenaeus looks upon Christ’s appearing as the end of this corrupt arrangement and all rebellion. The new world belongs to the righteous and is incorrupt.
So, this is not Amil, but the correct pre-mill view.

You condemn both modern pre-mill and Amil in one chop of the ax. Probably should have just pointed out the errors of this modern technological view of the Second Coming, than to jump in the Amil fire, and incinerate yourself.

BTW, this end of time is the end of the reign of sin. Not the end of time itself. If there is a creation, there is time. The concept of time does not stop at the Second Coming. The error of Amil is equating creation with eternity. Two separate relative phenomenon. God exists outside of creation and time, in eternity. God can also create and exist inside of time in His created realities. Name one verse that claims we become God. Plenty of verses describing the restoration as sons of God in God's image. This "primeval" earth was the sons of God created on the 6th day. Adam was one of them. When Adam disobeyed the 6,000 year countdown started. That is the time that is no longer being counted. Time does not stop existing every time there is a countdown on earth.
 

Timtofly

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LOL! Excellent job of missing the point. Well done. So, is it your belief that it's talking about a literal one thousand generations then? Is that what you're trying to say? Or do you even know what you're trying to say?
So you think God cracks jokes? OK.

Considering evolution, a thousand generations is quite literal. Considering the time it would take for 1,000 generations, God was just making a joke. Your point is 1,000 is just relative nonsense without any meaning or point at all, except a point Amil attempt to use when they have no other recourse.

If you think that God goes around pointing out nonsense, then you are worse off than I imagined. You can claim that God was pointing out how infinite He is compared to humans. That is hardly a unique platform of Amil eschatology. Pre-mill hold the exact same view of God. Pre-mill also accept Moses led the nation of Israel out of Egypt, just like Amil do. Neither of these points prove Amil is correct over pre-mill.

So please answer this: was God being literal or making a joke, because it would be an impossibility to God? Is God's covenant literal or only symbolic? My interpretation is that God would literally remain faithful for 1,000 generations, and was not joking around. You can hold to God only granted them a symbolic time frame, that could end in a week.

Amil have no proof that every time the concept of a thousand is used in Scripture it has to be interpreted as symbolic. Even this example of a thousand generations is literal, because even to God, life can experience a literal thousand generations. God does not always have to use symbolic phrases. Notice that these verses did not say His covenant is as a thousand generations.

"Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

God can never brake this promise, due to the very point that existence itself would end before this time ran out. So, no, God was not being symbolic nor making a joke. This is a case in point, His Words would never fail, especially this promise, even after reality itself stopped. Nothing in this current creation would ever void this warranty from God. So yes, a literal 1,000 generations, no escape clause for symbolism that might be considered an out by any party involved.
 

Timtofly

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What is your point here? Who said that is symbolic? It seems that you're saying only mankind's works will be destroyed? That was some rather selective quoting there. Why didn't you quote this part:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This is saying that the heavens and the elements will be burned up as well as "the earth also". Why did you not quote "the earth also"? What Peter was saying is that along with the heavens and the elements, the earth will also be burned up which will include "the works that are therein".

How can anyone grasp this when what you're saying is completely incoherent? It's not possible that what you said here makes any sense to anyone but yourself.
If taken at face value, the thought was not completed about the earth now, was it.

This is how you all read the verse:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also will be burned up, and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

You add those words to interpret your point, at least many Amil do. You have stated the earth is not dissolved, so therefore why interpret the verse that way? The "also" is just referring to the works thereof, not the earth itself.

Not using the verse in isolation, we can see it is talking about the wickedness produced by humans, as all humans are sinners and unrighteous in God's sight, even the redeemed. Certainly our selfish works will be burned up. You can only take what the Holy Spirit did through you to heaven, no? Are not even your works burned up at the Second Coming? Peter was correct in saying all the works on earth of the earth will be burned up. Unless this is only symbolic to you, then literally every work of humankind will be incinerated. Don't you love the finality of Amil, just as much as the finality of pre-mill, because they are literally the same thing.

I guess many think life the second after the Second Coming will go on as normal. I guess many will not even have a bed after waking up to that reality. Do you think Satan is not scrambling the last few years, wondering when this final blow is going to happen, and has attempted to hide away underground in the caves of the earth his precious technology to control humans after God promises to destroy it all? You all seem to be waiting for a press conference from Satan, so you can know when the Second Coming will happen. Guess what? That is not going to happen. That would only happen if there is a mass revival and the majority of humans repented unequivocally before the Second Coming. But how would that work, because Amil would have to give up their eschatology? They also claim Satan gets a little season prior to the Second Coming. But that would mean a press conference so humans can listen to Satan and plan to attack some unknown city on earth, no?
 

WPM

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No, you're not! You're arguing only based on what we have remaining of the works of the Church Fathers. And then you're drawing conclusions that assume that is all they had.

For example, you say the earliest Chiliasts were largely Amillennialists because they didn't speak much about the binding of Satan at the 2nd Coming, though I believe Irenaeus did at least this much. You argue that they didn't speak much of the mortality and sin nature of those in the Millennium, though you don't have a clue whether or not such descriptions actually existed. You just assume they were never said.

You can't draw conclusions from what you don't know! It is much more natural to view the Chiliasts as consistent about their belief that Rev 20 is real, with a real Millennium, with real people being ruled over, and with a real binding of Satan.

LOL. Hello! What else can we go on apart from the "remaining works of the Church Fathers"? That is such a ridiculous argument. It is also another glaring admission that the surviving works that history has left us totally negate your thesis. You need to take it up with the ancient Chiliasts why you view them as inconsistent about their belief re Revelation 20. Your battle is with them, not me. The reality is: this is another proof to the fact that their views were heavily influenced by elements of apostate Judaism who believed in a future millennium devoid of Satan's little season.

What do you mean "you say the earliest Chiliasts were largely Amillennialists because they didn't speak much about the binding of Satan at the 2nd Coming"? When speaking on my behalf, quote me accurately. When have i said "much" in regard to the existence of evidence on this subject? Hello! They did not teach it at all. This has been shown to you countless times on this thread. You twist one quote by Irenaeus to support your bias, but that is exposed by several other unambiguous and damning quotes on the same subject by the same author that forbid your claims. So far, you have not brought one single authentic historic rebuttal to the table.

What do you mean "they didn't speak much of the mortality and sin nature of those in the Millennium"? Again, where do you get this "much" from? They did not teach it at all! You have been unable to bring any evidence to the country to the table because you know what I'm saying is true. You have admitted that they did not believe this. Now you are doing another U-turn. That is your pattern. That is your form. It is so hard to take your rebuttal serious. They are contradictory.

That has been soundly refuted. My beliefs, which is Premil, is based on Rev 20, and was confirmed by the ancient Chiliasts who completely rejected Premil heretics.

Not so. When we look for the originators and formulators of modern-day Premillennialism we actually arrive at four shadowy early figures. The first two operated at the very infancy of early Church history – Cerinthus of Asia Minor (AD 50-100) and Marcion of Sinope, Asia Minor (Born: AD 85, Died: AD 160). Both of these were viewed as arch-heretics and were strongly resisted by the early Church fathers for their corrupt perversion of Christianity. They invented a dual-covenant concept of two parallel yet coexisting peoples of God, under two different agreements, serving two different gods, with two different time-tables and two different ultimate outcomes. This was seasoned throughout with Gnostic elements.

Philip Schaff says in his History of the Christian Church (Volume 2, Chapter 12): “The Jewish chiliasm rested on a carnal misapprehension of the Messianic kingdom, a literal interpretation of prophetic figures, and an overestimate of the importance of the Jewish people and the holy city as the centre of that kingdom. It was developed shortly before and after Christ in the apocalyptic literature, as the Book of Enoch, the Apocalypse of Baruch, 4th Esdras, the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, and the Sibylline Books. It was adopted by the heretical sect of the Ebionites, and the Gnostic Cerinthus.”

This is a diversion. Regardless of the common belief that the principle of the "binding of the strong man" applied to the Cross, it has nothing whatsoever to do with denial of the "binding of Satan" at the 2nd Coming. I've told you this repeatedly, but you're just doubling down.

I'm not going to read your repetitions and pasted copies. I've read them before, and answered them in detail. This shows nothing new at all. If this is designed to show something to others, have at it.

This is a political answer. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth at the one time. That is not advisable. In one breath you are admitting to my claim and then the next you are denying it. You must admit it because it is a fact. You deny it because you are a bias commentator who refuses to do the hard work required in order to establish the facts.

You have not addressed them in detail. Your answers consist of you promoting your opinions, instead of acknowledging their position. This only serves to reinforce the Op. Facts are stubborn things!
 
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Timtofly

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It would make no sense to say that we look forward to a new heaven and new earth in keeping with the promise of His second coming, if the new heaven and new earth aren't ushered in until 1,000+ years later.
Of course it makes sense that we can still look forward to Revelation 21 while experiencing Revelation 20. John did, because that is how he wrote it down in the book of Revelation.
 

Ronald Nolette

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My point was to show that "a thousand" is used figuratively elsewhere in scripture, so that means it's possible for Revelation 20 as well. I'm not saying the word "thousand" must be figurative in Revelation 20 since it's sometimes used figuratively elsewhere. I'm just saying that means it's possible. It seems like some people deny even the possibility because of being ignorant about how the word is sometimes used elsewhere in scripture.

As far as you referring to "the 6 occurrences of 1,000 years" in Revelation 20, you're not trying to say it has to be literal just because it's used 6 times, are you? I've seen that argument before and it's the most ridiculous argument imaginable. The number of times the word is used is irrelevant in terms of determining if it's literal or not.


Well I fully recognize that the other 4 instances of 1,000 are symbolic or euphemistically used because not from some mystic revelation but because of grammar and construct!

REv. 20 has no construction to lend itself to be taken euphemistically or symbolically. If anything the construct confirms we should view these 1,000 years as literal.

I asked a series of question to one who has refused to answer based on the 1,000 years being symbolic- simply because they cannot so I will not respond to them until they answer teh questions.

Once again just because something is symbolic in one place does not demand it is symbolic everywhere. context, Construc and grammar determine which.

As far as you referring to "the 6 occurrences of 1,000 years" in Revelation 20, you're not trying to say it has to be literal just because it's used 6 times, are you? I've seen that argument before and it's the most ridiculous argument imaginable. The number of times the word is used is irrelevant in terms of determining if it's literal or not.

Well six occurences of a tim epassage in a very few verses all connected , when no words to inform us it is a comparative or symbolic usage is powerful evidence God is trying to teach.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Where is one hour defined as a time span? As for 1,000 years, there's only two other verses in all of scripture that refer to a thousand years besides in Revelation 20 (Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8), so that is no basis for drawing the conclusion that it can't refer to an undefined time span in Revelation 20.

Find any Greek dictionary of the bible. Online, bible hub and blue letter bible are exzcellent. It is not the first and normal definition, but is a perfectly accurate definition of "heis hora" in greek writing.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Just as a reminder, "the above passage" you referenced here was 2 Peter 3:10-13. That passage is talking about something that will happen in fulfilling the promise of Christ's second coming, which means it will happen when He comes as a thief in the night, not 1,000+ years later as you believe.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”...9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.


Well you asre trying to conflate two separate events!

Jesus coming back is not "The Day of the Lord" It is His physical return to earth!

The Day of the Lord is the onset of the tribulation:

Peter is simply speaking of teh sixth seal, though he didn't know it for John had not written it yet.

REv. 6:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

But whether the 1,000 years are symbolic or literal, amils have an insurmountable problem without playing twister with the Word of God.

Jesus returning:

Revelation 19:13-21
King James Version

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


All this takes place before the literal/symbolic 1,000 years!


Then during that literal/symbolic 1000 years:

Revelation 20:4-7
King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


then after those literal/symbolic thousand years:

Revelation 20:8-15
King James Version

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Verse 11 shows the elements of the universe disappear!
 

Ronald Nolette

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What would be the purpose of these supposed offerings at this supposed Millennial temple? Keep in mind that keeping the feast of tabernacles involves giving offerings for the atonement of sins.

If you are seriously interested, I will post you the series of verses about life on earth during the 1,000 year kingdom.

Jewsih , Gentile sacrificial systems. millenial temple the varied lands that stay destroyed, government etc. But only if you really wish to know.
 

Timtofly

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If your willing to accept it the Lord said his coming is after the millennium when the H/E pass away.

The Lord is therefore Amill.
That is not what the Lord said any where. No where did Jesus claim He will return after 1,000 years. No one should accept that belief.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Glad you believe the heaven and the earth pass away after this millennium period.

Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be [unexpected judgment].


Luke 21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 “But be on guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down and depressed with the giddiness of debauchery and the nausea of self-indulgence and the worldly worries of life, and then that day [when the Messiah returns] will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep alert at all times [be attentive and ready], praying that you may have the strength and ability [to be found worthy and] to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man [at His coming].”



If your willing to accept it the Lord said his coming is after the millennium when the H/E pass away.

The Lord is therefore Amill.

Wrong. His coming is before the millenial when the armies of this world are aligned with teh antichrist and are marching on Petra. Teh 1.3 surviving Israel have the veil taken away and their minds are enlightened and all teh remaining Jewish people on earth will accept Jesus as Messiah.

Remember that once death and the grave are defeated, as is written in 1 Cor. 15 Jesus hands the kingdom back to his father and submits HImself to the Father!

It would be a very short reign in deed if Jesus comes back after the 1,000 years. After the 1,000 years Fire destroys Satan from heaven, before the 1,000 years Jesus comes back and battles the antichrist defeats HIm, abysses Him, climbs the mount of olives, judgesa teh survivors of the tribulation etc.etc. Very very different events at Jesus physical return and the end of the 1,000 years.
 

Randy Kluth

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LOL. Hello! What else can we go on apart from the "remaining works of the Church Fathers"? That is such a ridiculous argument.

Oh is it? I don't think you understand the argument. If Columbus sailed to America and left a log that failed to mention he sailed on Spanish ships, should we then argue that he never sailed on Spanish ships? No, it is logical to make some assumptions, rather than writing them off as arguments from silence.

In this case, we have guys like Lactantius, which you say came late and had no evidence that he derived his views from earlier Chiliasts. And yet, we have his Chiliast views, and the likelihood that he read Irenaeus. How much can it be said that it is an "argument from silence" to say Irenaeus had the same views Lactantius had, rather than use your "argument from silence" that the only relevant materials we have from early Chiliasts say that they didn't believe in the same things Lactantius did? I can I expect to discuss things like this with someone who is so bent on defending Amil that he can't even understand the logic behind my argument?

It is also another glaring admission that the surviving works that history has left us totally negate your thesis. You need to take it up with the ancient Chiliasts why you view them as inconsistent about their belief re Revelation 20. Your battle is with them, not me. The reality is: this is another proof to the fact that their views were heavily influenced by elements of apostate Judaism who believed in a future millennium devoid of Satan's little season.
What do you mean "you say the earliest Chiliasts were largely Amillennialists because they didn't speak much about the binding of Satan at the 2nd Coming"? When speaking on my behalf, quote me accurately.

You deny that the Chiliasts spoke of the binding of Satan at Christ's 2nd Coming in the face of Irenaeus' clear statement of the same. You aren't objective, and you're not reasonably open to being critiqued.
 

Ronald Nolette

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So you have the heaven and earth passing away twice :Ohpleze:

No just one. Look at the language closely" In REv. 6 the surface and atmosphere are badly disrupted and massive fires result from teh trumpet asnd bowel judgments during the "Day of the Lord".

At the end after teh 1,000 years, eternity is established and all the old passes away (the entire universe) and recreated. During the 1,000 years People will live on teh earthj, repopulate and grow things etc.
 

WPM

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Oh is it? I don't think you understand the argument. If Columbus sailed to America and left a log that failed to mention he sailed on Spanish ships, should we then argue that he never sailed on Spanish ships? No, it is logical to make some assumptions, rather than writing them off as arguments from silence.

In this case, we have guys like Lactantius, which you say came late and had no evidence that he derived his views from earlier Chiliasts. And yet, we have his Chiliast views, and the likelihood that he read Irenaeus. How much can it be said that it is an "argument from silence" to say Irenaeus had the same views Lactantius had, rather than use your "argument from silence" that the only relevant materials we have from early Chiliasts say that they didn't believe in the same things Lactantius did? I can I expect to discuss things like this with someone who is so bent on defending Amil that he can't even understand the logic behind my argument?

As much as you're trying to invent your own narrative, the facts forbid your conclusions. Lactantius did not source his beliefs in the writings of Irenaeus, he received them from the pagan Sibyl prophetesses. Here is the evidence:

as the Sibyl testifies and says:--

"For then there shall be confusion of mortals throughout the whole earth, when the Almighty Himself shall come on His judgment-seat to judge the souls of the quick and dead, and all the world."

But He, when He shall have destroyed unrighteousness, and executed His great judgment, and shall have recalled to life the righteous, who have lived from the beginning, will be engaged among men a thousand years, and will rule them with most just command.

Which the Sibyl proclaims in another place, as she utters her inspired predictions:--

"Hear me, ye mortals; an everlasting King reigns."

Then they who shall be alive in their bodies shall not die, but during those thousand years shall produce an infinite multitude, and their offspring shall be holy, and beloved by God;
but they who shall be raised from the dead shall preside over the living as judges.[1] But the nations shall not be entirely extinguished, but some shall be left as a victory for God, that they may be the occasion of triumph to the righteous, and may be subjected to perpetual slavery. About the same time also the prince of the devils, who is the contriver of all evils, shall be bound with chains, and shall be imprisoned during the thousand years of the heavenly rule in which righteousness shall reign in the world, so that he may contrive no evil against the people of God. After His coming the righteous shall be collected from all the earth, and the judgment being completed, the sacred city shall be planted in the middle of the earth, in which God Himself the builder may dwell together with the righteous, bearing rule in it.

And the Sibyl marks out this city when she says:--

"And the city which God made this He made more brilliant than the stars, and sun, and moon."

Then that darkness will be taken away from the world with which the heaven will be overspread and darkened, and the moon will receive the brightness of the sun, nor will it be further diminished: but the sun will become seven times brighter than it now is;
and the earth will open its fruitfulness, and bring forth most abundant fruits of its own accord; the rocky mountains shall drop with honey; streams of wine shall run down, and rivers flow with milk: in short, the world itself shall rejoice, and all nature exult, being rescued and set free from the dominion of evil and impiety, and guilt and error. Throughout this time beasts shall not be nourished by blood, nor birds by prey; but all things shall be peaceful and tranquil. Lions and calves shall stand together at the manger, the wolf shall not carry off the sheep, the hound shall not hunt for prey; hawks and eagles shall not injure; the infant shall play with serpents.

In short, those things shall then come to pass which the poets spoke of as being done in the reign of Saturnus.

Whose error arose from this source,--that the prophets bring forward and speak of many future events as already accomplished. For visions were brought before their eyes by the divine Spirit, and they saw these things, as it were, done and completed in their own sight. And when fame had gradually spread abroad their predictions, since those who were uninstructed in the mysteries[2] of religion did not know why they were spoken, they thought that all those things were already fulfilled in the ancient ages, which evidently could not be accomplished and fulfilled under the reign of a man.[3] But when, after the destruction of impious religions and the suppression of guilt, the earth shall be subject to God,--

"The sailor[4] himself also shall renounce the sea, nor shall the naval pine Barter merchandise; all lands shall produce all things. The ground shall not endure the harrow, nor the vineyard the pruning hook; The sturdy ploughman also shall loose the bulls from the yoke. The plain shall by degrees grow yellow with soft ears of corn, The blushing grape shall hang on the uncultivated brambles, And hard oaks shall distil the dewy honey. Nor shall the wool learn to counterfeit various colours; But the ram himself in the meadows shall change his fleece, Now for a sweetly blushing purple, now for saffron dye; Scarlet of its own accord shall cover the lambs as they feed. The goats of themselves shall bring back home their udders distended with milk; Nor shall the herds dread huge lions."[5]


Which things the poet foretold according to the verses of the Cumaean Sibyl. But the Erythraean thus speaks:--

"But wolves shall not contend with lambs on the mountains, and lynxes shall eat grass with kids; boars shall feed with calves, and with all flocks; and the carnivorous lion shall eat chaff at the manger, and serpents shall sleep with infants deprived of their mothers."

And in another place, speaking of the fruitfulness of all things:--

"And then shall God give great joy to men; for the earth, and the trees, and the numberless flocks of the earth shall give to men the true fruit of the vine, and sweet honey, and white milk, and corn, which is the best of all things to mortals."

And another in the same manner:--

"The sacred land of the pious only will produce all these things, the stream of honey from the rock and from the fountain, and the milk of ambrosia will flow for all the just."

Therefore men will live a most tranquil life, abounding with resources, and will reign together with God; and the kings of the nations shall come from the ends of the earth with gifts and offerings, to adore and honour the great King, whose name shall be renowned and venerated by all the nations which shall be trader heaven, and by the kings who shall rule on earth.

"These are the things which are spoken of by the prophets as about to happen hereafter: but I have not considered it necessary to bring forward their testimonies and words, since it would be an endless task; nor would the limits of my book receive so great a multitude of subjects, since so many with one breath speak similar things; and at the same time, lest weariness should be occasioned to the readers if I should heap together things collected and transferred froth all; moreover, that I might confirm those very things which I said, not by my own writings, but in an especial manner by the writings of others, and might show that not only among us, but even with those very persons who revile us, the truth is preserved,[1] which they refuse to acknowledge.[2] But he who wishes to know these things more accurately may draw from the fountain itself, and he will know more things worthy of admiration than we have comprised in these books …

which the Sibyls say shall come to pass
 
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