The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[covenantee]

Thayer's applies earth as "land" in *all* of his categories.

The word "land" appears nowhere in category 4 where 2 Peter 3:10 appears. Why are you denying the obvious?

4. the earth as a whole, the world (Latinterrarumorbis);

a. the earth as opposed to the heavens: Matthew 5:18, 35; Matthew 6:10; Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 2:14; John 12:32; Acts 2:19; Acts 4:24; 2 Peter 3:5, 7, 10, 13; Revelation 21:1; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the things and beings that are on the earth, Ephesians 1:10; Colossians 1:16 (T WH omit; L Tr brackets τά); involving a suggestion of mutability, frailty, infirmity, alike in thought and in action, Matthew 6:19; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς (equivalent to τά ἐπίγεια, Philippians 3:19) terrestrial goods, pleasures, honors, Colossians 3:2 (opposed to τά ἄνω); τά μέλη ὑμῶν τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the members of your earthly body, as it were the abode and instruments of corrupt desires, Colossians 3:5; ὁ ὤν ἐκ τῆς γῆς ... λαλεῖ (in contrast with Christ as having come from heaven) he who is of earthly (human) origin, has an earthly nature, and speaks as his earthly origin and nature prompt, John 3:31.

b. the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals: Luke 21:35; Acts 1:8; Acts 10:12; Acts 11:6; Acts 17:26; Hebrews 11:13; Revelation 3:10; αἴρειν ζωήν τίνος or τινα ἀπό τῆς γῆς, Acts 8:33; Acts 22:22; κληρονομεῖν τήν γῆν (see κληρονομέω, 2), Matthew 5:5 (4); πῦρ βάλλειν ἐπί (Rec. εἰς) τήν γῆν, i. e. among men, Luke 12:49, cf. Luke 12:51 and Matthew 10:34; ἐπί τῆς γῆς among men, Luke 18:8; John 17:4.

 

[WPM]

It is time to put Paul M in with his other ignored buddies.

Lol hey I have a lot less useless clutter taking up my forum this way.

Amils have become familiar with this type of rhetoric and constant avoidance. It just reinforces what we all know: Premils have an inability to refute solid facts.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There likely were other positions. But the fact the dominant position in the earliest Church were Premillennialists is a statement we hear time and again from men like Philip Schaff. HERE

Philip Schaff, a high respected church historian, said this about the premillennial beliefs of the early church fathers, “. . . the most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age is the prominent chiliasm, or millennarianism [Jesus’ thousand year rule on earth], that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment.”] Philip Schaff, who rejected the premillennial viewpoint himself, nevertheless verified that it was the predominant belief of the early church.

I disagree. Why should I trust what Philip Schaff says? I trust the opinion of an actual early church father about how things were back then over this Philip Schaff person.

This is what early church father and premillennialist Justin Martyr said:

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion (temporal 1000 year reign), and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." (Dialogue with Trypho, CHAPTER LXXX -- THE OPINION OF JUSTIN WITH REGARD TO THE REIGN OF A THOUSAND YEARS.)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amils have become familiar with this type of rhetoric and constant avoidance. It just reinforces what we all know: Premils have an inability to refute solid facts.

I've seen it many times. Once they realize they have no way of countering our arguments, they resort to personal insults and eventually put us on ignore.

 

[WPM]

Looks like Paul is going to lose sleep tonight, I hope he won't have to seek professional counseling over this one?

Not at all. LOL. The pettiness actually makes me chuckle. It fires me up. You can tell they are on the ropes.

The old adage is true: when you cannot attack the message attack the messenger.

 

[WPM]

I've seen it many times. Once they realize they have no way of countering our arguments, they resort to personal insults and eventually put us on ignore.

How true! It makes life so much easier. LOL.

 

[WPM]

The word "land" appears nowhere in category 4 where 2 Peter 3:10 appears. Why are you denying the obvious?

4. the earth as a whole, the world (Latinterrarumorbis);

a. the earth as opposed to the heavens: Matthew 5:18, 35; Matthew 6:10; Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 2:14; John 12:32; Acts 2:19; Acts 4:24; 2 Peter 3:5, 7, 10, 13; Revelation 21:1; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the things and beings that are on the earth, Ephesians 1:10; Colossians 1:16 (T WH omit; L Tr brackets τά); involving a suggestion of mutability, frailty, infirmity, alike in thought and in action, Matthew 6:19; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς (equivalent to τά ἐπίγεια, Philippians 3:19) terrestrial goods, pleasures, honors, Colossians 3:2 (opposed to τά ἄνω); τά μέλη ὑμῶν τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the members of your earthly body, as it were the abode and instruments of corrupt desires, Colossians 3:5; ὁ ὤν ἐκ τῆς γῆς ... λαλεῖ (in contrast with Christ as having come from heaven) he who is of earthly (human) origin, has an earthly nature, and speaks as his earthly origin and nature prompt, John 3:31.

b. the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals: Luke 21:35; Acts 1:8; Acts 10:12; Acts 11:6; Acts 17:26; Hebrews 11:13; Revelation 3:10; αἴρειν ζωήν τίνος or τινα ἀπό τῆς γῆς, Acts 8:33; Acts 22:22; κληρονομεῖν τήν γῆν (see κληρονομέω, 2), Matthew 5:5 (4); πῦρ βάλλειν ἐπί (Rec. εἰς) τήν γῆν, i. e. among men, Luke 12:49, cf. Luke 12:51 and Matthew 10:34; ἐπί τῆς γῆς among men, Luke 18:8; John 17:4.

Too simple, obvious, literal and straightforward for Premils to accept. To do so would force them to abandon their cherished beliefs.

 

[WPM]

Thayer's equates "earth" and "land" apart from the applications. NASB and Strong's indicate the same. Thayer's applies earth as "land" in *all* of his categories.

Hello! The whole land will be burnt up. There is no space for your sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennium.

 

[Truth7t7]

its obvious he is on a battle to try to tear down everyone who disagrees with him. He openes thread after thread after thread...seems to be commin in the OSAS debate and millennial debates.. I am surprised they are aloud to do this.. seems to detract from the chatroom. its like how many threads do we need on the same subject?

My observation is that Paul has proven you wrong at every corner, now you desire to see Paul gone, silence the opposition, the open statement of defeat

 

[Timtofly]

Actual “Mormon” here. What exactly are you accusing me of ? I have not been paying attention to this thread.

There are a lot of you. Only one of me.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The word "land" appears nowhere in category 4 where 2 Peter 3:10 appears. Why are you denying the obvious?

4. the earth as a whole, the world (Latinterrarumorbis);

a. the earth as opposed to the heavens: Matthew 5:18, 35; Matthew 6:10; Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 2:14; John 12:32; Acts 2:19; Acts 4:24; 2 Peter 3:5, 7, 10, 13; Revelation 21:1; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the things and beings that are on the earth, Ephesians 1:10; Colossians 1:16 (T WH omit; L Tr brackets τά); involving a suggestion of mutability, frailty, infirmity, alike in thought and in action, Matthew 6:19; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς (equivalent to τά ἐπίγεια, Philippians 3:19) terrestrial goods, pleasures, honors, Colossians 3:2 (opposed to τά ἄνω); τά μέλη ὑμῶν τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the members of your earthly body, as it were the abode and instruments of corrupt desires, Colossians 3:5; ὁ ὤν ἐκ τῆς γῆς ... λαλεῖ (in contrast with Christ as having come from heaven) he who is of earthly (human) origin, has an earthly nature, and speaks as his earthly origin and nature prompt, John 3:31.

b. the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals: Luke 21:35; Acts 1:8; Acts 10:12; Acts 11:6; Acts 17:26; Hebrews 11:13; Revelation 3:10; αἴρειν ζωήν τίνος or τινα ἀπό τῆς γῆς, Acts 8:33; Acts 22:22; κληρονομεῖν τήν γῆν (see κληρονομέω, 2), Matthew 5:5 (4); πῦρ βάλλειν ἐπί (Rec. εἰς) τήν γῆν, i. e. among men, Luke 12:49, cf. Luke 12:51 and Matthew 10:34; ἐπί τῆς γῆς among men, Luke 18:8; John 17:4.

"Earth" and "land" are synonyms, as indicated by any Greek lexicon. Thayer's put "earth" into categories based on context. No matter what the context is, "earth" did not mean "globe" to those in ancient times. The globe itself is not destroyed.

It meant that judgment will apply equally on earth everywhere over time, resulting not in annihilation but in the complete defeat of those who rebel against God. The comprehensive judgment Israel has experienced is what all nations who rebel against God will experience. When Christ comes back that reality will be made known in the complete destruction of Antichrist.

Jesus warned his disciples that comprehensive judgment was about to befall Jerusalem in their generation. But he said that this kind of judgment would be revealed throughout the whole earth, just as it would happen to Israel.

Luke 21.34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth."

 

[Randy Kluth]

I disagree. Why should I trust what Philip Schaff says? I trust the opinion of an actual early church father about how things were back then over this Philip Schaff person.

This is what early church father and premillennialist Justin Martyr said:

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion (temporal 1000 year reign), and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." (Dialogue with Trypho, CHAPTER LXXX -- THE OPINION OF JUSTIN WITH REGARD TO THE REIGN OF A THOUSAND YEARS.)

I'm well aware about that quote, but it did not state that Premill shared equal billing with Amill or other positions. It simply stated that there were a variety of opinions.

I've heard the name of Philip Schaff for decades. He's a very well-respected Church historian.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hello! The whole land will be burnt up. There is no space for your sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennium.

You mischaracterize the Millennium, which will be ruled by glorified saints, a brief period of rebellion at the end notwithstanding.

 

[covenantee]

"Earth" and "land" are synonyms, as indicated by any Greek lexicon. Thayer's put "earth" into categories based on context. No matter what the context is, "earth" did not mean "globe" to those in ancient times. The globe itself is not destroyed.

It meant that judgment will apply equally on earth everywhere over time, resulting not in annihilation but in the complete defeat of those who rebel against God. The comprehensive judgment Israel has experienced is what all nations who rebel against God will experience. When Christ comes back that reality will be made known in the complete destruction of Antichrist.

Jesus warned his disciples that comprehensive judgment was about to befall Jerusalem in their generation. But he said that this kind of judgment would be revealed throughout the whole earth, just as it would happen to Israel.

Luke 21.34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth."

Do you agree that the word "land" appears nowhere in category 4 where 2 Peter 3:10 appears?

Yes or no will suffice.

 

[WPM]

You mischaracterize the Millennium, which will be ruled by glorified saints, a brief period of rebellion at the end notwithstanding.

Not so! Where do the billions of wicked come from who rebel against Christ as the sand of the sea and overrun your supposed future millennium? Are they the resurrected righteous?

 

[WPM]

My observation is that Paul has proven you wrong at every corner, now you desire to see Paul gone, silence the opposition, the open statement of defeat

Exactly! They have nothing to bring to the table. All they have is a white flag.

 

[Truth7t7]

You mischaracterize the Millennium, which will be ruled by glorified saints, a brief period of rebellion at the end notwithstanding.

Glorified saints, please explain with scripture?

Your future Millennium will have no mortal humans?

Is your National Israel glorified or mortal?

You Millennial Kingdom is a mystery, please explain in detail, waiting?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Do you agree that the word "land" appears nowhere in category 4 where 2 Peter 3:10 appears?

Yes or no will suffice.

Of course you want a Yes or No answer to an irrelevant question that presumes a Yes answer substantiates your claims. But I won't give you the satisfaction because the question does not resolve the problem. A Yes or No answer will not address the underlying matter.

As I said, categories have to do with context--not the basic meaning of the word. The earth is a synonym for land. You can see that in Strong's on down.

HERE
Strong's Concordance
gé: the earth, land...
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. word
Definition
the earth, land
NASB Translation
country (2), earth (165), earthly (1), ground (20), land (46), soil (16).

The category you refer to includes applications of the word earth/land to a more universal sense. Again, this does *not* settle the problem of viewing the earth as "land everywhere" compared to "the totality of the planet." Either people everywhere experience some measure of divine judgment, or the entire planet is annihilated.

Again, the Scriptures indicate the earth is "forever." God did not create the world only to annihilate it, having to start all over again with a new set of 6 days. Rather, He recreates the old world into a new form, taking jurisdiction away from satanic rebels and giving it properly to His Son, to rule. This is the essence of a new creation--a reworking of the earth, as opposed to complete destruction and starting over again.

The category of Thayer's applying earth/land to a universal application does not settle the issue of planet vs. common experience.

4. the earth as a whole, the world (Latinterrarumorbis);

a. the earth as opposed to the heavens: Matthew 5:18, 35; Matthew 6:10; Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 2:14; John 12:32; Acts 2:19; Acts 4:24; 2 Peter 3:5, 7, 10, 13; Revelation 21:1; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the things and beings that are on the earth, Ephesians 1:10; Colossians 1:16 (T WH omit; L Tr brackets τά); involving a suggestion of mutability, frailty, infirmity, alike in thought and in action, Matthew 6:19; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς (equivalent to τά ἐπίγεια, Philippians 3:19) terrestrial goods, pleasures, honors, Colossians 3:2 (opposed to τά ἄνω); τά μέλη ὑμῶν τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the members of your earthly body, as it were the abode and instruments of corrupt desires, Colossians 3:5; ὁ ὤν ἐκ τῆς γῆς ... λαλεῖ (in contrast with Christ as having come from heaven) he who is of earthly (human) origin, has an earthly nature, and speaks as his earthly origin and nature prompt, John 3:31.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not so! Where do the billions of wicked come from who rebel against Christ as the sand of the sea and overrun your supposed future millennium? Are they the resurrected righteous?

I've answered this question from you for years now! People on the Millennial Earth will initially be made to submit to a Christian-led world, probably dominated by Christian nations. Non-Christian nations will no longer be driven by Satan to want to overthrow the international order. People will still have a Sin Nature, and they will still have access to Christian redemption.

Having a Sin Nature does not guarantee untold horrors taking place internationally and within each nation. It doesn't always do that even today. There have been nations with relative justice and peace at least for a time at various periods in their history. There is no need to view the existence of the Sin Nature as a necessary explosion of evil. Apparently, it only explodes in great measure only at the end of the Millennial era, when Satan is released once again to deceive the nations.

If indeed I've told you this a number of times over the years, I don't expect you will be moved by it. So I say this only for others who may read. They will see the obvious flaw in your characterization of the Millennium, as Premills like myself see it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Glorified saints, please explain with scripture?

Your future Millennium will have no mortal humans?

Is your National Israel glorified or mortal?

You Millennial Kingdom is a mystery, please explain in detail, waiting?

My view of the Millennium is of a literal 1000 years dominated by Christian nations, including the newly-Christianized State of Israel. This is a domination by example, and pagan nations will not be able to overthrow them. The Christian nations will be blessed, whereas the pagan nations will not be blessed.

Jesus promised his apostles they will have some leadership in this Age to Come. We know from Scriptures that the 1st resurrection of the saints will take place at Christ's return. I call that a "glorification event."

So when the apostles and other Christian leaders are glorified, they will rule over a mortal earth, perhaps from heaven. They will come to earth, together with Christ, to impose Christian liberty at the start of the Millennium.

But thereafter, the glorified saints may reign from heaven, in the spirit, for 1000 years. After that, the New Jerusalem will descend from heaven and become part of the final glorification event, when the Millennial saints also become immortal.