The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[No Pre-TB]

Truth is truth every time you retell it!

Truth is always someone else’s truth. The Unholy trinity is really eisegesis. But you like it because you keep saying it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I understand that not every premil believes exactly the same, but I am familiar with all of the basics and the better known variants of premil. You, on the other hand, are very lacking in your understanding of even the basics of Amil that most Amils agree on.

If you would be so kind, how did you learn dispensational pre-millenial eschatology? did you study any texts on it, or just taught in a local church? Did your pastor refer to any textbooks which simply put the variouys passages together in one text and in a semblance of order ( not perfect but the ones I rely on are very good).

 

[WPM]

See now you swap verses back in forth from the iur biblical order to fit your amil agenda.

Teh marriage of Jesus to teh church takes place BEFORE He returns.

I do let Scripture speak for itself! But if I read it as you do - then all teh saved at jesus return are killed by Jesus and the birds.


Remember when Jesus returns, He gathers the elect form teh four corners of the earth. No where in its historical context and grammatic context can this mean gathering the dead from everywhere, but teh living still on earth!

YOu also forget that the antichrist gathers to battle at Armageddon, unless of course Armageddon doesn't mean Armageddon and gathering his armies doesn't really mean gathering his armies in one place like the text says.

Not so! Your teachers have taught you wrong again. The marriage of the Lamb is the one and only consummation of Jesus to His bride. That occurs at the one final future coming of Christ.

Where is Armageddon mentioned in Rev 19?

By the way, "the" is spelt "the" not "teh." There is no way you can keep repeating the same mistake countless times. You do not seem to know how to spell it. Maybe you are dyslexic. I could then understand.

 

[WPM]

Wrong again ! Teh first half of Jesus earthly ministry was to announce to Israel that the Kingdom had arrived. If Israel at that time accepted jesus as Messiah through their leadership, Jesus still would have died, but when He rose, He would have defeated Rome and established the long awaited and promised kingdom to Israel. But Jesus because the leadership blasphemed the Spirit postponed the kingdom offer.

We agree about teh consequences of the second advent.

No death and hell are not defeated. People still die and people still go to Hades/sheol/hell/grave.

Yes He gained the authority, but He has not yet exercised His authority for death and hell are still woking. He will defeat them in the future and that is when Hea takes authority over them. Then He yields the kingdom back to His Father!

You are promoting Dispensatanism again. If Jesus wanted to overcome the Roman empire He could've done. That was nothing to do with His mission. You make the same mistake as the Pharisees and the early Premil heretics. Where do you get that? In the Left Behind novels. I present what Scripture says, you rebut with what Tim Lahaye has taught you. That is ridiculous.

The message that John the Baptist preached and which Christ also preached was spiritual. It was the same Gospel that Paul the apostle preached. It was a spiritual Gospel of faith and repentance. They did not promote some earthly worldly kingship that involved overthrowing the Romans. When did Jesus ever advance the setting up of a physical kingdom on earth and the overthrow of the Roman empire?

The only way that the elect could conquer the grave and reign with Christ was after sin, death (or the grave), Satan, Hades (or Abraham’s bosom) and eternal punishment were defeated by Jesus.

If the fall was the greatest tragedy that hit mankind, the cross was the biggest blessing. It confronted everything that was arrayed against us.

Justice demanded:

· Christ had to defeat sin, the source of man’s enslavement.
· He had to defeat Satan, the instrument used to tempt man to sin.
· He had to defeat death (or the grave), the penalty of sin.
· He had to defeat Hades (or Abraham’s bosom), the prison of the righteous dead.
· He had to defeat eternal punishment, the just reward for unrepentant sinners.

This meant that none of these had any power over God’s people.

Something happened 2000 years ago that you seem to be ignorant of: Jesus defeated sin, death, Hades and Satan. Hell had no more hold upon the redeemed. Revelation 20 shows the dead in Christ now populating heaven instead of Hades. Hades (Abraham's bosom) has been emptied of God’s elect since Christ conquered it. The dead were raised from Hades in spirit and are now reigning with Jesus. But the physical resurrection does not occur until Jesus comes to raise the living and the dead at His one final future climactic coming.

Jesus was the first to defeat sin, death, the grave and Hades. He is the first resurrection. After His glorious resurrection, He testified in Revelation 1:18: “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”

Christ secured the complete dominion over Satan, death, hell, sin and every enemy at the cross. He took these crucial keys of authority over death and hell through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. Christ not only defeated hell and death but acquired “the keys of hell and of death” (Revelation 1:18), triumphing over the prince of darkness. Christ became a curse for the penitent, therefore bearing his curse.

Keys in the New Testament represent divine authority. The keys (or authority) of the bottomless pit rests with Christ today and His delegated authority bestowed upon His angels and people.

Christ holds the keys of hell and of Hades today. That power has been taken from Satan. Christ defeated Satan who held the keys of death and of Hades. Amils believe that Satan and his power was seriously injured at the cross. Christ secured a decisive victory over Satan through his life, death and resurrection. Christ secured the complete dominion over Satan, death, hell, sin and every enemy at the cross. Death and Hades are now defeated. The grave has been conquered. God's people who die go now to be with Jesus.

Before the resurrection the redeemed dead were forced to stay in Hades awaiting the defeat of sin, death, Hades and Satan. The limitations that once held God's people from the presence of God now restrain Satan so that he cannot stop the enlightenment of the nations. Jesus opened heaven up to the elect (both living and dead) When he defeated sin, death, Satan and Hades. He consequently emptied Abraham's bosom and took the dead in Christ in heaven.

So, it was only after the first resurrection (when sin, death, Satan and hell were defeated) and the consequential binding of Satan that the dead in Christ could be released to enter the presence of the Lord in heaven. Christ emptied Hades and led captivity captive taking them to heaven to reign with Him until the physical resurrection at His coming. That is because the penalty for their sin has been paid in full. Justice has been met by the sinless life of Christ, His atoning death on our behalf and His victorious resurrection. The punishment is complete.

He said that before He defeated death and Hades and emptied Abraham's bosom.

The dead in Christ are in glory today. They are reigning with Christ. Upon death, they go immediately into the presence of God to rule with him. So, those in Revelation who are reigning in Revelation 20 do so because Jesus defeated the grave and opened Hades 2000 years ago and led the redeemed dead into glory. They now reign with Him since the first resurrection. Revelation 20 is ongoing and will finish at the coming of Christ which sees the general resurrection, judgment and the regeneration of this current world.

 

[No Pre-TB]

They now reign with Him since the first resurrection. Revelation 20 is ongoing and will finish at the coming of Christ

I have a question. Are you saying it’s your belief the 1st resurrection of Rev 20 is a past event?

 

[WPM]

I have a question. Are you saying it’s your belief the 1st resurrection of Rev 20 is a past event?

Absolutely! The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection - Christ's or the resurrection that occurs at the second coming? This is a pretty simply question.

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?
Which is the foremost resurrection in place?
Which is the foremost resurrection in order?
Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in time.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in place.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in order.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in importance.

There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

 

[No Pre-TB]

Absolutely! The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection - Christ's or the resurrection that occurs at the second coming? This is a pretty simply question.

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?
Which is the foremost resurrection in place?
Which is the foremost resurrection in order?
Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in time.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in place.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in order.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in importance.

There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Thank you for your response. To be honest, I have never heard of that till now. But there are a few problems with that thought. If you’re assuming Christ died first, which he did, and the protos is referring back to his resurrection, how do you understand this:
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

If the protos was Christ in about 30AD, 1k years later would be the resurrection of the wicked. Now I realize the 1k years is probably not a literal 1k but a large span of time. But it’s been almost 2k years. To think what you’re saying is true has many holes IMHO. Secondly, John says we are Priests of God now, but it’s never said we are already reigning with him making the first resurrection still a future resurrection since he would have been raptured after the first resurrection happened. Thirdly, at what time in the world was the nations of this earth not deceived by Satan? He still deceives. He’s never been cast into the pit. If he hasn’t been in the pit for 1k years, the exact time Christ reigns, then we’ve never reigned with him. And if we’ve never reigned, the first resurrection has never happened meaning the first resurrection is for men and not Christ. Fourth, Martha says the resurrection is at the last day. Christ resurrection wasn’t the last day nor was it even the end of the 70 weeks as he died after the 69th week. Fifth, when Christ died and rose, the heavens were not removed. Job proves the resurrection happens after that event. That never happened with Christ.

Shall I keep going? I think it was very interesting how you look at protos. But, when reviewing other scripture in comparison, I truly believe that you are in error here. Please take this as loving criticism. The more perfect resurrection has never happened to the human race and has always been taught to happen after specific events. All throughout the OT, there are only 2 resurrections for people: Just and Unjust, Good and the wicked, the first resurrection and the 2nd resurrection. Christ resurrection was not part of that. His resurrection made it possible for us at the end of the age which is still future. You are correct though, Christ is the first resurrected. But there is a distinct separation between Christ the first fruits and then those at his coming. Lastly, I do apologize for the long reply.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Truth is always someone else’s truth. The Unholy trinity is really eisegesis. But you like it because you keep saying it.

Ilike it because it is biblical!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not so! Your teachers have taught you wrong again. The marriage of the Lamb is the one and only consummation of Jesus to His bride. That occurs at the one final future coming of Christ.

Where is Armageddon mentioned in Rev 19?

By the way, "the" is spelt "the" not "teh." There is no way you can keep repeating the same mistake countless times. You do not seem to know how to spell it. Maybe you are dyslexic. I could then understand.

Does Armageddon need to be mentioned in every chapter from chapter 16 or it isn't valid to you?

Revelation 16:12-16
King James Version

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelation 19:11-16
King James Version

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.


If you can't see the connection, I can't help you.

We have already established my spelling is lacking. If you cannot deal with it- place me on ignore or simply stop using it as a straw man because you cannot rebut teh word of God with yoursymbolic reinterpretations.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are promoting Dispensatanism again. If Jesus wanted to overcome the Roman empire He could've done. That was nothing to do with His mission. You make the same mistake as the Pharisees and the early Premil heretics. Where do you get that? In the Left Behind novels. I present what Scripture says, you rebut with what Tim Lahaye has taught you. That is ridiculous.

Well that is because it is what Scripture teaches. go back and read the gospels up to teh events of Matrt. 12 when the leadership of Israel committed the unpardonable sin and lost teh kingdom for that generation.

Jesus wasn't teaching the disciples to build the churh, but they went around announcing people to repent for the kingdom of heaven was at hand!

The message that John the Baptist preached and which Christ also preached was spiritual. It was the same Gospel that Paul the apostle preached. It was a spiritual Gospel of faith and repentance. They did not promote some earthly worldly kingship that involved overthrowing the Romans. When did Jesus ever advance the setting up of a physical kingdom on earth and the overthrow of the Roman empire?

From the time He started preaching! Teh Jewish world for the most part was awaiting teh arrival of the long promised kingdom! Even right before Jesus ascension the disciples asked if He was going to restore the kingdom to Israel again. So please this spiritual stuff is the garbage of the Watchtower.

You think that the Jews of Jesus day were all walking around like covenantal amillenialists like yourself? Not in the least! God has promised an earthly kingdom for Israel!

If the fall was the greatest tragedy that hit mankind, the cross was the biggest blessing. It confronted everything that was arrayed against us.

On this we agree.

Christ had to defeat sin, the source of man’s enslavement.
· He had to defeat Satan, the instrument used to tempt man to sin.
· He had to defeat death (or the grave), the penalty of sin.
· He had to defeat Hades (or Abraham’s bosom), the prison of the righteous dead.
· He had to defeat eternal punishment, the just reward for unrepentant sinners.

This meant that none of these had any power over God’s people.

You show great ignorance of reality. and SCripture here.

Hades is not just Abrahams bosom. Hades is also, sheol/hell/ the grave. It was composed of three sections (now just two) Abrahams bosom, the place of torments, Tartarus.

Death and the grave are not defeated yet. All men still die! For believers when we physically die our souls and spirit go to be with teh Lord. The lost go to the place of torments, and the angels of Gen. 6 are imprisoned in tartarus.

Whe Jesus defeasts death- He turns the kingdom back ot His Father as is written in 1 cor. 15. and he doesn't defeat death until the 1,000 years which you say is not 1,000 years.

and I am still awaiting for you to specifically identify the beast of rev. 12.

What is the mark of reprobation?

I still awaitj you to identify the false prophet or second beast who caused all to receive this mark you say is not a mark but a spiritual thing.

When did this second beast/false prophet erect an image to the first beast and cause it to speak?

also can you please show me in history the beheading of people prior to Jesus resurrection (when you say the non 1,000 years/1,000 years began) for their testimony of Jesus and for not taking the mark or worshipping the beast or his image.

Also what was this image (icon/eikon) that the second beast gave life (pneuma ) to?

I am going to keep asking and will refuse to respond further until you specifically identoify thesew things. You have given some generic vague answers, but if these are historical as you say- then they should be easily specifically identified.

 

[Christian Gedge]

By the way, "the" is spelt "the" not "teh." There is no way you can keep repeating the same mistake countless times. You do not seem to know how to spell it. Maybe you are dyslexic. I could then understand.

Just a heads up for you Ronald. This forum software has got an inbuilt spell checker. If you see a word with red underlining it is telling you there is something wrong. Just click on it with the right-side mouse button and it will give you a selection of words to fix the problem.

 

[Truth7t7]

God has promised an earthly kingdom for Israel!

Your claim is found no place in scripture, just more Zionism as Pinocchio's nose grows

 

[No Pre-TB]

Ilike it because it is biblical!

The unholy trinity isn’t biblical.
1. It’s not found in scripture
2. It’s a prefabricated construct of man

Nothing is equal to God or Christ. To make a comparison is to show equality between the 2 with the difference being: One side is good vs. one side is evil. There is no comparison because none are equal. It’s a Tim LaHaye and Woolvard Science fiction nonsense.

 

[WPM]

Does Armageddon need to be mentioned in every chapter from chapter 16 or it isn't valid to you?

Revelation 16:12-16
King James Version

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelation 19:11-16
King James Version

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.


If you can't see the connection, I can't help you.

We have already established my spelling is lacking. If you cannot deal with it- place me on ignore or simply stop using it as a straw man because you cannot rebut teh word of God with yoursymbolic reinterpretations.

You are obviously doing it deliberately.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are obviously doing it deliberately.

I Agree 100%, when they are proven wrong no change in teaching, or correcting their error

Ron claims the "Rod Of Iron" is a Scepter Jesus will rule a Kingdom on this earth with, he has been shown several times its a potters tool of destruction, not a Scepter

Childish Antics is the result, driven by personal pride and self will

 

[Timtofly]

It is the dead in Christ rescued from Hades after the first resurrection. I wrote this to another poster.

That was the entire OT body of the church. Not those who choose beheading to save their souls. Moses, Abraham, Noah, Abel, David, Solomon, none of those chose beheadings to save their souls. A beheading is a specific action instead of another specific action. There is no symbolic meaning behind this act of beheading. It is an act of faith, like Noah building the ark was an act of faith. Not every church member builds an ark do they? Not every church member cuts off their head for a testimony to Christ instead of taking the mark. Being beheaded is just as literal as Noah building an ark.

Being beheaded is not symbolic of being set free from Abraham's bosom. Revelation 20:4 is not the release from Abraham's bosom. Those is Revelation 20:4 did receive from God a permanent incorruptible physical body. Those who came out if their graves, all of Abraham's bosom, not just a few, all received from God a permanent incorruptible physical body. That is the first resurrection, a physical body. Those from Abraham's bosom were taken to Paradise. Those beheaded in Revelation 20:4 live on the earth for 1,000 years, waiting for the New Jerusalem to come down to the earth.

You keep claiming one future resurrection, but the hour of resurrection already happened. It happened when Lazarus was called out of the grave, out of Abraham's bosom. It happened at the Cross, when all of Abraham's bosom was called out of their graves out of Abraham's bosom. It is an ongoing phenomenon when a redeemed soul leaves this body of death and enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body waiting in Paradise. That is the first resurrection.

Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

This is the same preconceived doctrine of Amil as well. Revelation 19 and the battle of Armageddon is not the Second Coming. You Amil are as much in error about this chronology as pre-mill are.

The only humans still on earth, in Revelation 19, are at, and all fit in the valley of Megiddo. There is no rapture in Revelation 19. All the redeemed were beheaded during the prior 42 months. You know, those resurrected in Revelation 20:4 that you claimed were OT saints? Only the 2 witnesses were raised from the dead, and ascended to heaven just hours before this battle of Armageddon. They were two literal individuals, not a bunch of people lying dead for a few days on the ground. All the redeemed were literally beheaded, and resurrected after this battle of Armageddon.

 

[Timtofly]

Where do you get that there are 8,000 rigid years of creation?

The Lord's Days mentioned throught the Bible. Where do you get Amil time from?

Peter told the church not to be ignorant. You just seem to reject time altogether when it comes to God's time table.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are obviously doing it deliberately.

Doing what? Jesus comes back to war with the nations. We have the antichrist, who or whate4ver one wishes to believe he or it is, and the gathering of the worlds armies are to battle against the Lord. Doesn't take a PHD to see the connection--LITERALLY!

Still waiting for you to identify in History the following:

1. The identity of the false prophet/ beast out of the earth.
2. When the false prophet built an image to the beast and made it come alive.
3. Ordered all to take the mark which you say is reprobation
4. The angel flying around warning all against taking that mark.
5.The specific identity of the antichrist- even if it is multiple identities over the ages.
6. when the grand beheading of believers took place before or shortly after Jesus resurrection.

 

[WPM]

Doing what? Jesus comes back to war with the nations. We have the antichrist, who or whate4ver one wishes to believe he or it is, and the gathering of the worlds armies are to battle against the Lord. Doesn't take a PHD to see the connection--LITERALLY!

Still waiting for you to identify in History the following:

1. The identity of the false prophet/ beast out of the earth.
2. When the false prophet built an image to the beast and made it come alive.
3. Ordered all to take the mark which you say is reprobation
4. The angel flying around warning all against taking that mark.
5.The specific identity of the antichrist- even if it is multiple identities over the ages.
6. when the grand beheading of believers took place before or shortly after Jesus resurrection.

1. False prophet is false religion. I've already explained the beast. You obviously have reading difficulties as well.
2. The false prophet is doing that now. It is figurative language describing the false prophet and the beast working in tandem.
3. Yep! Deception.
4. That is the heart of God.
5. See 1 above.
6. Since the beginning.

 

[Timtofly]

Absolutely! The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance).

Absolutely, but not literally?