The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[Spiritual Israelite]

So God did not force you to believe Amil?

You chose that erroneous view of Scripture all on your own?

You add nothing to this forum of any value. Why are you even here? You try to claim that my view is erroneous but you are completely incapable of backing that up. You have the most incoherent arguments of anyone on this forum. You should step back and let the adults talk.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Still didn't answer the question with all thatr verbage. who is the beast- for teh beast is a person and what was His mark.

You are coming across as having extremely poor reading comprehension skills. He described his understanding of the beast and the mark of the beast in his post. Why are you acting as if he didn't? Read it again. He did all that work of explaining his view to you and it appears that you just skimmed over it if you read it at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

so you may have worshipped teh beast and taken his mark before you got "saved" and thus are damned forever.

You are clueless. Why should we bother trying to explain what we believe when you are apparently unable to understand anything?

So what is th emark specifically. The bible goes into specifics saying it is the name of the beast or th enumber of his name or 666. What say you? And how does one take a spiritual mark on their right hand?

It marks a person as having their loyalties with this evil world rather than with God. Revelation 13:8 indicates that ALL whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast. So, whatever the beast is, literally all unbelievers follow after it and are loyal to it. Jesus said that we believers are not of the world. Unbelievers are of the world. They love this evil world and what it has to offer which are only temporal things and things that are against God's will.

I believe the number 666 is a symbolic representation of fallen mankind. English translations differ, but I believe the correct translation of Revelation 13:18 is that the number of the beast is the number of mankind rather than the number of an individual man. The number 7 is commonly known to represent God's perfection and mankind falls short of that. The fact that there are three 6s may just be to emphasize just how short of God's glory and standards that mankind falls.

As far as a spiritual mark on the right hand, have you ever read this:

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

This was not talking about the Israelites literally tying God's commandments on their hands and literally binding them on their foreheads. It's symbolic for obeying the commandments with their actions (using their hands) and with keeping them in the forefronts of their minds at all times. So, in the case of the mark of the beast I believe it is a symbolic representation of people's actions reflecting their loyalty to the beast (to the world and its evil ways) rather than to God. And having the mark in one's forehead represents someone's beliefs and thoughts being in line with the beast.

Do you think "the seal of God" written on the foreheads of believers is a literal seal? If not, then why do you think the mark of the beast has to be a literal mark?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well judging by you and SI there is big chasms in beliefs.

How do you figure? My beliefs are very similar to his, overall. My beliefs are certainly much closer to his than, say, a partial preterist Amil.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But you and SI have Him destroying all flesh at His return! That would include the living saved!

Good grief, man. That is not at all what we're saying. We believe that believers will all be changed to have immortal bodies and will be caught up to Christ in the air when He returns. We believe He will then destroy everyone else left on the earth.

but your error here is that because you pay little attention to context so often that you miss important clues. Let me explain:

the word all has three basic meanings:

1. Everyone
2. Everyone of a selected group
3. people from many differences ( all sorts of people)

If you throw a party for your child and the wife asks: are all the kids invited yet? You have two choices- every single child on earth, or all the kids from a specific group ( the invite list) and in the case of Rev. 19 we see in the context of the passage that all here means from all manner of people.

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

The birds will eat teh flesh from all sorts of mankind:

1. Kings
2. Captains'
3. mighty men
4. horse riders
5. free men
6.slaves
7.lower class or peons
8. great men ( the upper class)

It says "the flesh of all people", not some of all kinds of people. You are badly twisting the text to fit your doctrine. It clearly says all people and it's people of all kinds. As in all people who are still on the earth at that point. The text is written in such a way to be all-inclusive. No unbelievers are excluded. That is what it implies by including everyone whether they are free or slaves, small or great.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And we come baCK TO THE AGE OLD PROBLEM AMILS HAVE. WHEN TO SYMBOLIZE AND WHEN TO TAKE LITERALLY.

That is a "problem" that we all have since we all understand that some of the text is literal and some is symbolic and we all have to discern which is which in any given verse or passage.

AS YOU REJECT JESUS HAVING A LIMITED PHYSCIAL EARTHLY KINGDOM AS A LITERAL RENDERING OF sCRIPTURE SHOWS- YOU SYMBOLIZE ENORMOUS PASSAGES YOU CANNOT PROVE IS THE CORRECT WAY OF READING THEM.

Is your Caps Lock key stuck?

And there is the other amillenial problem. You have to have men teach you which is symbolic and which is not.

Where are you getting this nonsense from?

nearly all amils probably di dnot start as amil, unless they were brought up in a covenant theology church.

So what? This is pointless. What matters is what you believe after you study this for yourself.

But it is men who define what is literal and symbolic for you.

Nonsense! No one decided that for me. You were likely taught premil growing up, right? Should I then say that men defined for you what is symbolic or not? This kind of nonsense should be kept out of these discussions.

Teh bible is written for the average believer- njot for the mystical believer who is compelled to read between the lines to get teh "deeper truths" or spiritual truths" of passages.

Tell that to the apostle Paul whenever you see him. It will give him a good laugh since that is not at all what he taught.

1 Corinthians 2:9 However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”—the things God has prepared for those who love him—10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

What you're saying blatantly contradicts what Paul wrote here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

See now you swap verses back in forth from the iur biblical order to fit your amil agenda.

Teh marriage of Jesus to teh church takes place BEFORE He returns.

Where is your scriptural evidence to support this claim? You're always all talk and no scripture.

I do let Scripture speak for itself! But if I read it as you do - then all teh saved at jesus return are killed by Jesus and the birds.

That is not true. All you are able to do is misrepresent Amils. You can't counter our arguments with a coherent argument of your own, so you resort to this instead.

Remember when Jesus returns, He gathers the elect form teh four corners of the earth. No where in its historical context and grammatic context can this mean gathering the dead from everywhere, but teh living still on earth!

What are you talking about here? Why can't it mean all of the dead as well as all of the living?

Mark 13:26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

This shows that the elect will be gathered from throughout heaven and the earth. The ones gathered from heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ and the ones gathered from earth are those who are alive and remain on the earth until His return. This lines up perfectly with 1 Thess 4:14-17 where it says Jesus will be bringing with Him the dead in Christ (their souls) and their bodies will be resurrected and will be caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air.

YOu also forget that the antichrist gathers to battle at Armageddon, unless of course Armageddon doesn't mean Armageddon and gathering his armies doesn't really mean gathering his armies in one place like the text says.

You think that it's referring to a literal place on earth called Armageddon rather than it being a symbolic reference. But, do you also think that the following is referring to the literal Gog and Magog?

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You cannot even seem to take it upon yourself to recognize that there are many many symbolic passages in the Word of God. You do not even allow that as one of your options. That is ridiculous! After all, the scriptures are saturated in symbolism, visions, dreams, parables and figurative language, from Genesis to Revelation. That shows how biased you are in your Premillennialism.

Each passage, chapter and book should be approached recognizing its proper sense and setting. That may be hyper-literal, highly-symbolic, hyperbolic, parabolic, poetic or apocalyptic. But the context and ambience of the location should assist us in determining the overall thrust of the text. What is more, a good knowledge of other relevant Scripture, should reinforce what the sense and setting is telling us. That helps us in interpreting the Bible as it presents itself.

There is no sense of objective analyze with the Premil approach to Rev 20. They force a literal interpretation upon the most symbolic of language. They seem to have no grasp of apocalyptic language. They also do not seem no understand the importance of corroboration (interpreting Scripture with other Scripture). That is why they have no corroboration. It is unbiblical! It cannot abide the truth!

He considered it a "problem" for Amil to have to decide if a given text is literal or symbolic. Why is that a "problem"? Premils need to do that as well. It's not as if everything is literal. No one in their right mind would claim that. Yet, his argument would only make sense if all of the text was literal. Yet, it obviously is not all literal. Not even close.

This hyper-literal approach that some take to interpreting the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture is just mind boggling. It makes no sense.

 

[marks]

the most highly symbolic book in all

This is circular reasoning. This is a symbol, because this book is filled with symbols. We know this book is filled with symbols, just look at them all!

There's nothing 'hyper-literalist' in not seeing everything to be a symbol. Is that "Hyper-allegoracist?" Or something like that?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is the same preconceived doctrine of Amil as well. Revelation 19 and the battle of Armageddon is not the Second Coming. You Amil are as much in error about this chronology as pre-mill are.

Anyone who cannot recognize Revelation 19:11-21 as describing the Second Coming has to be completely lacking in discernment. I mean completely. 100%.

The Lord's Days mentioned throught the Bible. Where do you get Amil time from?

Peter told the church not to be ignorant.

Not to be ignorant about what? I think you are ignorant about what 2 Peter 3:8 means. In 2 Peter 3:8-9 Peter was talking about not being ignorant about the fact that time has no effect on the Lord at all. One day, a thousand years, or any amount of time makes no difference to Him since He created time and exists outside of time. That is what we should not be ignorant about. Those who are ignorant of this think that He is being slow to fulfill the promise of His second coming since it's been almost 2,000 years so far, but He isn't being slow from His perspective, which is what matters.

You just seem to reject time altogether when it comes to God's time table.

False allegations are all you have. You continually make a fool of yourself with your ridiculous comments. You know darn well that he does not "reject time altogether", but you say it anyway to try to make him look bad. You are not able to support your own doctrine with anything close to a coherent argument, so you resort to insults instead since that's all you have.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is circular reasoning. This is a symbol, because this book is filled with symbols. We know this book is filled with symbols, just look at them all!

That is not at all what I was saying. What I'm saying is that it makes no sense to assume any given verse is literal when you consider that the book contains a lot of symbolism.

There's nothing 'hyper-literalist' in not seeing everything to be a symbol. Is that "Hyper-allegoracist?" Or something like that?

It's hyper-literalist to assume any given verse is literal unless it explicitly indicates otherwise. It's not always spelled out to us as to whether it's literal or symbolic.

 

[marks]

You add nothing to this forum of any value. Why are you even here? You try to claim that my view is erroneous but you are completely incapable of backing that up. You have the most incoherent arguments of anyone on this forum. You should step back and let the adults talk.

This is how adults talk????

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is how adults talk????

Have you read his posts? He adds nothing to the discussions. Adults tell children when they're in the wrong and that's all I'm doing in this case.

 

[marks]

Have you read his posts? He adds nothing to the discussions. Adults tell children when they're in the wrong and that's all I'm doing in this case.

Maybe read your post pretending someone else wrote it? Maybe that's what I'm doing, eh?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Maybe read your post pretending someone else wrote it? Maybe that's what I'm doing, eh?

I have no idea of what you're talking about here. Can you not just speak plainly?

 

[marks]

I have no idea of what you're talking about here. Can you not just speak plainly?

What would you say about someone writing those words to you?

Children should hear and not speak, so stop your posting, don't think your one of the adults, we're actually getting tired of you.

?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What would you say about someone writing those words to you?

Children should hear and not speak, so stop your posting, don't think your one of the adults, we're actually getting tired of you.

?

Do I do nothing but misrepresent Premil the way he constantly misrepresents Amil? Do I randomly respond with pointless one liners? No. So, I don't really care what you think about me. It's clear to everyone here except maybe you that Tim never offers anything of substance in these threads.

 

[Timtofly]

You add nothing to this forum of any value. Why are you even here? You try to claim that my view is erroneous but you are completely incapable of backing that up. You have the most incoherent arguments of anyone on this forum. You should step back and let the adults talk.

Amil have nothing to add to eschatology either. They deny the future.

 

[Timtofly]

Anyone who cannot recognize Revelation 19:11-21 as describing the Second Coming has to be completely lacking in discernment. I mean completely. 100%.

Not to be ignorant about what? I think you are ignorant about what 2 Peter 3:8 means. In 2 Peter 3:8-9 Peter was talking about not being ignorant about the fact that time has no effect on the Lord at all. One day, a thousand years, or any amount of time makes no difference to Him since He created time and exists outside of time. That is what we should not be ignorant about. Those who are ignorant of this think that He is being slow to fulfill the promise of His second coming since it's been almost 2,000 years so far, but He isn't being slow from His perspective, which is what matters.

False allegations are all you have. You continually make a fool of yourself with your ridiculous comments. You know darn well that he does not "reject time altogether", but you say it anyway to try to make him look bad. You are not able to support your own doctrine with anything close to a coherent argument, so you resort to insults instead since that's all you have.

And this post was an insult fest.

Hope you enjoyed typing it out. Perhaps address points, or just be insulting?

Jesus claims no one knows, and it will happen when you all think not. I think I am in pretty good company in saying Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. Because that is when you all think it will happen. When it will literally happen when you think it won't.

Armageddon is a planned encounter down to the year, month, day and hour. How can the Second Coming be a thief in the night moment when every one will know exactly when Armageddon is going to happen?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are coming across as having extremely poor reading comprehension skills. He described his understanding of the beast and the mark of the beast in his post. Why are you acting as if he didn't? Read it again. He did all that work of explaining his view to you and it appears that you just skimmed over it if you read it at all.

Well some kind of government and reprobation are very vague and wide open to varied "interpretations"

But it is you and he that have said that this beast has been here 2000+ years. After all that time if all you can give is a vague answer ......