The Gift Of The Sabbath - Is It For Us? - NEW AND IMPROVED??
- Thread starter BarneyFife
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No, I never said that people who keep the literal sabbath are slaves to sin.
It's more important that you not bear false witness than keep a literal sabbath. That's what the prophets said.
So, understand that a person is only a slave to sin if they are a slave to sin. Literal sabbath keeping does not signify if you are a slave to sin, or if you aren't a slave to sin. How does keeping a Mosaic sabbath show you are or aren't, for example, hooked on porn, or alcoholic drink? Wouldn't it rather be that not being hooked on porn and alcohol signify that you are not a slave to those sins? Yeah, I know, crazy, huh?
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I'm not talking about sacrifice of worship... Your phrase.
I'm talking about simple authority. Either God has the authority to command or He doesn't. It's either a suggestion, or a command.
Of course you don't 'have to' obey. It's your choice. Just as it's your choice whether you murder or not or whether you have relations with your neighbor's underage daughter. Obedience has always been a choice, ever since the garden. Did Eve have to refrain from eating the fruit? No.
Maybe it isn't a moral issue. I guess that depends on whether you think it moral to ignore God's authority or not.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You know what I'm talking about.
As a believer it is not optional to 'not murder' and 'not steal'. These are expected and obligatory expressions of saving faith. I'm saying literal sabbath keeping is not required as an expected and obligatory expression of saving faith.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Would continuing neglect of the Sabbath, despite all evidence to the Sabbath's authenticity and pertinence, constitute slavery to sin?
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Your outward worship is a sacrifice. It is not the obedience of 'love your neighbor as yourself'. God doesn't even want your sacrifice of service to him in worship until you FIRST obey him in the commands on how to treat others. Isaiah 1:11-17. Read it! There are other passages that stress the same thing. Make Jeremiah 7 your daily Bible read today. Don't take false comfort in the sacrifice of your worship to God over and above your obedience to how you are to treat other people. The sabbath command is NOT the supreme command of God. Not even close.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
And there's the problem and core issue at hand. It is, quote, I'm saying literal sabbath keeping is not required. It isn't the scriptures saying that, if it were, anti Sabbath folk would have been quoting the text for centuries and the issue would have always been on the same level as circumcision.
Do you really think God has respect for your opinion on the matter as being of more authority than His finger carving out His Commandment on a slab of emerald?
Should Christians consider your saying as being of more authority than His word?
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No. It's not a sin anymore to not keep a literal sabbath. That is part of the appointed schedule of worship that became obsolete and no longer needed when Christ accomplished one time for all time what those observances sought to do. And Christ accomplished it in regard to the far greater and meaningful way of the reality - rest from sin - not rest from a mere day of not working the farm.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Straw man. And false assumptions. You have been castigating Barney for making all Commandments equal, now you are castigating me for an assumption on your part, that of making Sabbath keeping of more importance than loving God? Why would anyone ever want to observe the Sabbath, if they didn't love God sufficiently to put up with all the nonsense thrown at them by folks like you? History is redolent with testimonies of Sabbath keepers who paid for their faithfulness by the shedding of their blood at the hands of Catholic, and pagan, Sunday keepers.
Sunday keepers whose sole justification for honoring that day was a single collection for starving Christians in Jerusalem, turning it into a tradition that superceded God's explicit Commandment. "In vain do they worship Me..."
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No, on that of making it equal to loving God and loving others. It is not equal to those. If it was, the prophets would not have told the Israelites to stop being observant and start doing right. Not that they didn't have to be observant, but that how they treated each other was a far different matter of law far above the outward observances. I mean, Isaiah didn't say, "stop bringing me your love for others and learn to do right." He said, "Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—I cannot bear your worthless assemblies...Learn to do right." - Isaiah 1:11-17.
This shows the clear delineation between the sacrifice of a literal sabbath and various other observances, and the obedience of treating others lovingly and justly and compassionately. The observances are NOT on the same par with the laws concerning love for others. It is not a valid argument to say that we have to keep a literal sabbath because it's just as important as the commands to not hurt others.
Good paragraph, more so since you are an Arminian. Allow me to remark on that, to say it like a free grace believer.
1. There is no category of "observant" believers or commandments. [√] (10)
2. I make no demand such as "they have to obey it."[x] (0) (You cannot make demands.)
3. Believers are free to obey the 4th commandment or not. [x] (Believers are free to obey the 4th commandment PERIOD. Therefore 0)
33.33%
Fail
Don't feel bad, in South Africa 30% is a pass.
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No rabbit hole, promise.
The word in Mark 2:27 for "made" - "the Sabbath was made", 'egeneto'<'ginomai' has the meanings of "create", "establish", "constitute", and "solemnise", even "keep" and "celebrate".
And similarly the word in Acts 17:31 for "appointed" - 'hestehsen'<'histehmi' - has the meanings of "stand fast", "establish", "institute", "be permanent", "validated", "immovable", "unimpaired", "dignified".
Reading the whole of Acts 17 the creation of God and the beginnings of everything are clear and unmistakable.
"God created them man and wife" -- that constituted 'marriage', <always>. "God created / hallowed / appointed them man and wife".
And thus the day in which God would raise Christ up from the dead, similarly had been established and instituted and constituted and confirmed "from the beginning". "Christ the Beginning of the creation of God".
WHICH ONLY "DAY" EVER HAS THUS BEEN GIVEN "DIGNITY", “VALIDITY”, HAS THUS BEEN "HONOURED", HAS THUS BEEN "UNIMPAIRED" AND "KEPT HIGH" : BY GOD : Genesis 2:2-3 Mark 2:27,28 Isaiah 58:13 compare 57:15!
WHERE do we see Lord and Sabbath exalted as in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead in Ephesian 1:19,20 Matthew 28:1-4 Hebrews 4:4-9, "GOD THUS CONCERNING THE SEVENTH DAY SPEAKING" BY THE WORD MADE FLESH FROM GLORY TO GLORY FOREVERMORE!?
An "unknown God" can neither be trusted, served nor worshipped...Something more than a theoretical knowledge of God is needed by us. Acts 17 --- verse 31. Something of God is necessary for us : the things "GOD APPOINTED"--"THE MAN .. THE DAY".
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HERE: This what YOU, DO:
This is subtle, no, this is direct, pernicious ACCUSATION - judgement, insult, BIGOTRY! You deny while, before and after, you intensely INTENDING, SAY (sir, SAY): the 'keeper' is 'false' but the really false - you the truly 'false witness' is 'important' - in God's eyes of course, and 'bears' true testimony, meaning the 'false' - YOU - is innocent, righteous and justified before God. DUH!
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I'm surprised you don't know me better. Both passages speak of both physical and spiritual rest.
I believe in religious liberty. People are free moral agents. I also believe that God makes no difference between the 4th commandment and the other 9. God allows people to commit murder, but since that is in violation of the love thy neighbor portion of the law, they might have to answer to earthly authorities. I'm not sure why you want to tell me what I believe in your own words.
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No, I don't. I simply testify that God makes no difference between the 4th commandment and the other 9. I don't wish to argue about covenants. I'd prefer to leave that to my dispensationalist friends.
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Circumcision is not related to the issue of the perpetuity of all ten of the ten commandments.
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