The gift of tongues

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Wormwood

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Sword said:
So You you claimed I fail to see that I am saved from and for. How do you know what I know? Why did you jump in and make a ludicrus staement like that? You dont know me. You have no idea what I know or dont know.

Jesus never died so you get a ticket for heaven. Jesus died to restore the Kindom of heaven. Jesus died to restore you to you Original Created Value. (OCV)
Yes we are saved from Gods wrath and all you quoted. Great. But the word saved means we are healed. We are preseved. We are rescued. The fact that most Christian think its a ticket to heaven is very evident in church circles. But what is ignored and activly argued against is we are healed. By His stripes we are healed. And from there we go on to lay hands on the sick and every thing changes from there as we become like Him and act and walk like Him and grow into Christ. We fully represent Him every where we go. This is the huge part we all missed and obviously I was correct you never mentioned it. No one is blaming anyone it all comes from misundestanding and all the misteaching that has gone out from all the churches and is still going on.

You are assumiong the role of teacher and many many others are doing the same me included. I fully understand that Jas 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. And am ready to stand for that. Why do we treat this verse so lightly. For 23 years I thought I knew it well. $ years later. I know almost infinitly more than I thought I did 4 years ago. ANd theres more. So I dont teach on what I dont know. I dont debate on what I dont know. I talk/teach on what I do know.
You said, "The average Christian thinks Jesus died so they can go to heaven." You claimed this was not true. I am simply pointing out that that very much is part of why Jesus died. You can call it the OCV or whatever. The point is still the same. Jesus died so we could be a part of God's kingdom. Jesus came to "SEEK" and "SAVE" that which was lost. Clearly saving the lost here implies bringing people back to God who have wondered off (i.e lost sheep, lost coin, lost son parables). So lets not get into a game of semantics here. Most people understand "heaven" as being reconciled and united with God for all eternity. The reason God wants to restore our "value" is so that we can be with him and see him as he is. In other words, he came to transform us so we will be fit to dwell in the presence of God forever. That is what most people understand HEAVEN to be...the dwelling place of God.

Moreover, I am a teacher. I am not assuming anything. Now, you can claim that my teaching does not line up with the Bible. That is fine. I don't expect everyone to agree with me and it doesn't hurt my feelings if you don't. However, I have been a pastor for over 15 years and I am currently endorsed by a Christian faith group that sponsors me as a Chaplain in the US Navy. So, yes, I am a teacher. I am recognized as a teacher. I have the credentials as a teacher and I have served as a teacher, preacher and church leader for a very long time. I am not trying to toot my own horn. Just because I am a teacher doesn't mean I am right, I understand that. However, I am not assuming anything. You are the one making the assumptions here. I will be happy to stand before God and give an account for what I teach. I simply try to follow the Scriptures to the best of my ability and allow what the Bible says to guide my thinking on life, the church and eternity. My conscience is clear.

No paul is not teaching the opposite. He is telling them tounges is not the big one. You clian self edification as if it is bad. You are contradicting the meaning of edification. Is edifcation ever bad for you? No. Its to build you up.
I didn't say self-edification is bad. I said that no where is this gift said to be something God desires or expects of all believers. God is more interested in us building up others rather than seeking to build up ourselves. Nothing wrong with building up ourselves, but the reason tongues is listed lower on the priority list of gifts is because Christians should be more interested in blessing others rather than primarily themselves. I think when we highlight tongues as the premiere gift and claim all believers should have it (or falsely accusing people like me as being at fault for believers not having something God wants them to have) then we are misrepresenting both the importance of the gift and the Scripture's teaching on this subject. Its a gift from God which is good. But it is not 1) something all can or should have 2) listed as one of the more significant gifts 3) something people need to be coached into receiving 4) an expression of spiritual maturity or depth (the Corinthians were very immature, specifically those who were apparently boasting about their gifting in this area) or 5) a gift we are called to pursue above others. Those were my points. My point was not to say the gift was without value.
 

Wormwood

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Now all of a sudden we can desire the gifts but just not tounges, that makes zero sense man? No my issue is with your teaching. I have no issue with what Gods word says ever anywhere. I am sorry you think I am calling you out here. But I must . You have assumed the platform and role as teacher. And you are not telling what the bible says. You are telling everyone who reads this that YOU are correct and I am wrong. And the last thing I have is the bible says we dont go on FEELINGS and warns against it, and you are saying you do. Ok thats up to you. Your teaching is not to clear.

I would like to finnish with asking you if you know what you gift is? When you believe we only get one. What is your gift and how did you get it. You said If we really love believers etc. So I ers lay hands on the sick and the shall recover. So I start laying hands on the sick and they start recovering. Whats the chances eh? My hearts to heal and it works. The gifts are for all and we naturaly lean towards one. I am expecting yours is going to be healing. Just guessing though. Because my heart if for healing the sick. And I never asked for it. I was shown one verse that lead to many verses on healing. our hearts desire tends to walk towards one or another. Thats the first gift you will walk in. God says He will give YOU the desires of Your heart. The gifts are for all. No question about it. I know a man who had all the gifts working, before he even knew they were in the bible. All of your thought and teaching came from the pulpit. all of what I believe came from people who teach what they walk in.
No, I am not saying a person cannot desire tongues. I am saying that Paul is encouraging them, that if they are going to desire a gift, they should focus on gifts that edify others, such as prophecy. Those are Paul's words, not mine. Again, Paul clearly appreciated the gift of tongues, but he felt these people were barking up the wrong tree. They were getting focused and divisive over a gift that he felt like was not as significant as others because it didn't express love toward or building up others. So the point is simply this...yes tongues was a good gift....but if you want to be more like Jesus and serve and build others up in love...start desiring gifts that serve that purpose rather than gifts that primarily focus on one's self. That is Paul's point. Please point to the verses that show me I am wrong if I am not teaching what the Bible says. I want to see how I am contradicting the Bible rather than just taking your word for it.

Here's my brief little message on the purpose and role of spiritual gifts. 1. I believe some gifts served a specific function and role. I don't think all gifts are continuously in operation. Miraculous gifts such as healing and miracles were gifts the Holy Spirit used in the life of the church to validate the message of the Gospel as it was first preached. I don't think the Holy Spirit continues to give these gifts in most instances because they had a purpose and that purpose was met. Just as Moses didn't have to split the Red Sea every year or turn his staff into a snake continually, likewise I don't think the church continually needs miraculous signs. I think the signs confirmed the early message and it doesn't need to continually be validated. 2. I believe the gift of tongues was one of those early miraculous gifts that was used as a "sign to unbelievers." Acts 2 clearly teaches that this gift was used as a miraculous means of allowing someone to "praise God" in languages they had never learned so unbelievers could see the sign and be impacted. Thus, it was not for believers, but a sign to unbelievers. Paul says this explicitly in 1 Cor. 14:22. This does not men that God CANT gift the gift or miracles, healing or tongues....but that I believe the Holy Spirit doesn't generally do that because those gifts fulfilled their purpose...just as the role of Apostle fulfilled its purpose. 3. Ultimately, the role of all gifts is to benefit the church. Gifts of signs, wonders and tongues were used to validate the message of the Apostles. Gifts of teaching, prophecy, encouragement, leadership, administration, etc. are used to teach, rebuke, guide and train believers to prepare them for works of service and build them up into unity and the image of Christ. So, if we are to seek gifts, our question should be, "What does the church need" and not "What do I want." Hopefully, God makes our hearts want what the church needs, but I find gifts come to fruition when people step out in faith to find ways to serve others....which may not always be where they are naturally talented. Spiritual gifts and natural talents are very different things, imo. I desired to teach because I have a profound love for the power of God's Word and want people to understand and appreciate it. That has been my passion since I first became a Christian and I saw a great need in the church for people to understand, love and immerse themselves in the Word of God. I believe that is why God gave me the gift of teaching and it is why I teach today. It certainly was never about me seeking a stage or a platform for my own ego.

Thus, I believe God gave me the gift of teaching. Obviously you will disagree with this, but that is why I teach and preach on a daily basis and have given my life to studying and sharing the Word of God with others. It is my passion and I believe God has gifted me to do this for the sake of building others up in their faith and a proper understanding of the Word of God.

Sorry for the long reply.
 

Sword

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lforrest said:
Did I speak on this? Can't recall saying so.

I believe it is possible for all to receive the gifts only because I have experienced a taste of most of them. It seems they only show up when I need them.
Sorry my mistake it was wormwood.

So I am pleased to have someone say they have tasted most of the gifts.
 

Sword

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So, no, Paul is clear that not all will speak in tongues. Does he want all to speak in tongues because it is a valuable gift? Yes. Does he want all to prophesy? Yes.
Not at any point in time haveI said /God never said that not all will speak in tounges. Thats a biblical fact. That is not what we are talking about ever in this conversation. We all know thatwas said and isa fact. as I said just exactly the same as are all saved. are all white are all black. The obvious is blatantly NO. So please keep in mind that is NOT what we are debating here.

I am really not interested in what anyone here quotes. As the man who wrote it for you is not here to defend it, So it is utterly pointless quoting what other people wrote. I Dont do google when I am debating. If you need to quote other people then you lack the ability to comunicate and should not get involved. So please dont quote me other peoples work or thougts. Its just not right to do that.

Yes. That is not the issue. The issue is does God desire all to speak in tongues? The clear answer is no.
God said yes and you said no. Who should the people in the fprum follow me included?

God said wiether it was through paul or God himself matters not a jot. The whole bible is Gods word. I see you jump from God to Paul and paul to God. As I said in the shout box, This is a fine example of leaders who do not understand telling things that suit what they have always believed.

Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, But you and another in here have decide to overule the word of God and say its not true. Thats up to you to believe that. But when you come in here and teach what you think and clearly Gods desire if FOR ALL TO PRAY IN TOUNGES. Your knee deep in it.

The clear answer is an absolute fact God and Paul what ALL to speak in tounges. But you still say no? You are a leader here and need to seriously reconcider what you are pushing here.


God does not give all people the gift of tongues just as he does not make all people prophets. Don't confuse Paul's admission that the gift is valuable with the larger point.
The gifts are available to all. But not all will stand and recive becausepeople like you are holding the church back.
I aint confussed in this anywhere. The gift is available full stop. Why are you adding something that id not there.

The problem is that clearly Scripture teaches not all will have the gift
We know what the facts are and it is still the same today. Not all speak in tounges. Jesus said will I even find any faith when I come back. Thats who short we are.
No one is dissagreeing about what is a fact. We disagree on its for all I believe and you think no it not by misquoting scripture. It does not say not all GWILL EVER to speak in tonuges as you are implying. It says not all DO speak in tounges. There a big difference.

So point is tounges Is for everyone God said so. You are denying what the bible says. Not everyone has it. we know that. But Its there if they want it.
 

bbyrd009

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waterlilyoflife said:
The Bible says that when people speak in tongues there is suppose to be an interpreter present to say what the tongues mean. Tongues is the language of angels, it is praising God in angel language. Paul said we should speak to each other in our own language to be understood, so new comers can understand the sermon, hear the words and be saved. my mom went to a holiness church with her grandmother when she was 10 and heard the speaking in tongues, it scared her.

Sword said:
Not at any point in time haveI said /God never said that not all will speak in tounges. Thats a biblical fact. That is not what we are talking about ever in this conversation. We all know thatwas said and isa fact. as I said just exactly the same as are all saved. are all white are all black. The obvious is blatantly NO. So please keep in mind that is NOT what we are debating here.

I am really not interested in what anyone here quotes. As the man who wrote it for you is not here to defend it, So it is utterly pointless quoting what other people wrote. I Dont do google when I am debating. If you need to quote other people then you lack the ability to comunicate and should not get involved. So please dont quote me other peoples work or thougts. Its just not right to do that.


God said yes and you said no. Who should the people in the fprum follow me included?

God said wiether it was through paul or God himself matters not a jot. The whole bible is Gods word. I see you jump from God to Paul and paul to God. As I said in the shout box, This is a fine example of leaders who do not understand telling things that suit what they have always believed.

Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, But you and another in here have decide to overule the word of God and say its not true. Thats up to you to believe that. But when you come in here and teach what you think and clearly Gods desire if FOR ALL TO PRAY IN TOUNGES. Your knee deep in it.

The clear answer is an absolute fact God and Paul what ALL to speak in tounges. But you still say no? You are a leader here and need to seriously reconcider what you are pushing here.


The gifts are available to all. But not all will stand and recive becausepeople like you are holding the church back.
I aint confussed in this anywhere. The gift is available full stop. Why are you adding something that id not there.


We know what the facts are and it is still the same today. Not all speak in tounges. Jesus said will I even find any faith when I come back. Thats who short we are.
No one is dissagreeing about what is a fact. We disagree on its for all I believe and you think no it not by misquoting scripture. It does not say not all GWILL EVER to speak in tonuges as you are implying. It says not all DO speak in tounges. There a big difference.

So point is tounges Is for everyone God said so. You are denying what the bible says. Not everyone has it. we know that. But Its there if they want it.
So weird to me that i am pretty sure when you say "tongues" here you are referring to glossololia, Sword--which scares me, too--yet i am led to agree with your arguments otherwise. I don't even know what to make of that.

I did the gloss thing many years ago, because the congregation i was a part of at the time considered it a required worketh unto salvationeth; but i have since come to perceive a more likely meaning for the concept that seems to me to fit with all of the Scripture on it. Hopefully this is sufficiently communicated in the post above, but another example might be when i came to realize that "Jesus never died so you get a ticket for heaven. Jesus died to restore the Kingdom of heaven," and attempted to communicate this to people who imo should have already understood it, being that they were playing at being pastors and "church" admin.

I would much rather "prophesy" myself now, because imo that would entail outlining a clear vision that i may have seen, and desire to manifest--"When believers have realized that nutrition or the lack of it plays such a big part in why their children are all being born with autism or cancer, if they are being born at all, because half of their men are sterile now, and none of their elders are dying in their sleep any more, only then will they abandon the convenience of grocery stores that openly admit to operating for a profit, in favor of real food grown in their own local ground; and so that is why i am planting edible trees in common areas, to 'touch' those who see, and would be healed"--rather than making plain, obvious statements that elicit responses like "i don't know what you are talking about," which quickly gets pretty old imo.

And i mean no offense there, ok, i am as obtuse as the next guy when i desire to be. (But obviously we have many translations, which is what was being referred to)
 
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Deborah_

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Sword said:
Not at any point in time haveI said /God never said that not all will speak in tounges. Thats a biblical fact. That is not what we are talking about ever in this conversation. We all know thatwas said and isa fact. as I said just exactly the same as are all saved. are all white are all black. The obvious is blatantly NO. So please keep in mind that is NOT what we are debating here.
Except in I Corinthians 12


Sword said:
I am really not interested in what anyone here quotes. As the man who wrote it for you is not here to defend it, So it is utterly pointless quoting what other people wrote. I Dont do google when I am debating. If you need to quote other people then you lack the ability to comunicate and should not get involved. So please dont quote me other peoples work or thougts. Its just not right to do that.
The point of quoting other people is simply to demonstrate that Wormwood is not a 'lone voice'.

God said yes and you said no. Who should the people in the fprum follow me included?

God said wiether it was through paul or God himself matters not a jot. The whole bible is Gods word. I see you jump from God to Paul and paul to God. As I said in the shout box, This is a fine example of leaders who do not understand telling things that suit what they have always believed.

Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, But you and another in here have decide to overule the word of God and say its not true. Thats up to you to believe that. But when you come in here and teach what you think and clearly Gods desire if FOR ALL TO PRAY IN TOUNGES. Your knee deep in it.

The clear answer is an absolute fact God and Paul what ALL to speak in tounges. But you still say no? You are a leader here and need to seriously reconcider what you are pushing here.



Everything has to be taken in context, and as part of Paul's overall argument. Otherwise you end up pitching one verse against another (or completely ignoring one or the other). The "answer" isn't anywhere near as clear as you would like us to believe.




The gifts are available to all. But not all will stand and recive becausepeople like you are holding the church back.
I aint confussed in this anywhere. The gift is available full stop. Why are you adding something that id not there.


We know what the facts are and it is still the same today. Not all speak in tounges. Jesus said will I even find any faith when I come back. Thats who short we are.
No one is dissagreeing about what is a fact. We disagree on its for all I believe and you think no it not by misquoting scripture. It does not say not all GWILL EVER to speak in tonuges as you are implying. It says not all DO speak in tounges. There a big difference.

So point is tounges Is for everyone God said so. You are denying what the bible says. Not everyone has it. we know that. But Its there if they want it.

The fact is that even in churches that do affirm the gift of tongues, not everyone receives the gift. Even amongst those of us who believe the gift is for today and would like to have it (and have asked God for it), not all have received it. Lack of faith isn't the problem. God sometimes says NO - as He has the absolute right to do.

It's pity that in this thread so few people have given their testimony of receiving the gift of tongues. If there were more testimonies, you might get a clearer idea of the immense variation in the way the Holy Spirit operates. Some people ask for the gift, others get it without asking. Some people have hands laid on them, others don't. Some people are given it straight away, others only after a long time. Some are given it only once, others use it frequently. There's no 'right' or 'wrong' way to go about it - and no 'guaranteed' way of getting it either. Just because a particular approach 'worked' for you doesn't mean it will 'work' for everyone else. We are talking about the Holy Spirit - and "the wind blows wherever it pleases." (John 3:8) He isn't at our beck and call.
 

Sword

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Deborah I would prefer if you would go and adress the post I replied to you post. And leave wormwood deal with his own. It getting a little complicated.
This is another reason for not quoting what others said. Please you ley wormwood spek for himself. Just help everyone follow whats being said buy who. I gave you plenty to reply on. maybe you never saw it?
 

bbyrd009

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i would say that someone under the influence of tares might def be going about it in the wrong way; and i find no Witness of glossololia in Scripture, personally.
 

Sword

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Wormwood said:
Its a gift from God which is good. But it is not 1) something all can or should have 2) listed as one of the more significant gifts 3) something people need to be coached into receiving 4) an expression of spiritual maturity or depth (the Corinthians were very immature, specifically those who were apparently boasting about their gifting in this area) or 5) a gift we are called to pursue above others. Those were my points. My point was not to say the gift was without value.
First thing is you totally ignored the accusations I higlighted that you accused me of. Ok so you never started at the start.

So ok lets ignore that. I dont mind. But just want to point out that you have selective reading and answering techniques. I see it all the time.

You said, "The average Christian thinks Jesus died so they can go to heaven." You claimed this was not true. I am simply pointing out that that very much is part of why Jesus died. You can call it the OCV or whatever. The point is still the same. Jesus died so we could be a part of God's kingdom. Jesus came to "SEEK" and "SAVE" that which was lost. Clearly saving the lost here implies bringing people back to God who have wondered off (i.e lost sheep, lost coin, lost son parables). So lets not get into a game of semantics here. Most people understand "heaven" as being reconciled and united with God for all eternity. The reason God wants to restore our "value" is so that we can be with him and see him as he is. In other words, he came to transform us so we will be fit to dwell in the presence of God forever. That is what most people understand HEAVEN to be...the dwelling place of God.
Onto the second point. The average Christian lives a life that reflects there is nothing to do but wait to go top heaven. hell on earth cant wait to go. THat is the attitude of most Christians. This is not semantics. We all know and understand what you said heer. and its all realivent. to salvation. But if you look up the word saved in the greek, you do not see heaven mentioned. So yes Christians and the church say this prayer and you will go to heaven. That is not the whole truth. New Christians fall into a pit when all the promises dont materialze in theer lives. We need to be teaching the full gospel. Jesus called you to pick up your cross and follow Him. We seel the oh say this prayer and you will go to heaven. He never died so you can go to heaven He died to restore heaven on earth as it was with Adam walking with God in the cool of the day unashamed and in a right relationship. We dont see that as we dont teach it. But thats what it is. So your explianation of what Jesus died for is NOT wrong but falls well short of the fuller meaning and truth.


Moreover, I am a teacher. I am not assuming anything. Now, you can claim that my teaching does not line up with the Bible. That is fine. I don't expect everyone to agree with me and it doesn't hurt my feelings if you don't. However, I have been a pastor for over 15 years and I am currently endorsed by a Christian faith group that sponsors me as a Chaplain in the US Navy. So, yes, I am a teacher. I am recognized as a teacher. I have the credentials as a teacher and I have served as a teacher, preacher and church leader for a very long time. I am not trying to toot my own horn. Just because I am a teacher doesn't mean I am right, I understand that. However, I am not assuming anything. You are the one making the assumptions here. I will be happy to stand before God and give an account for what I teach. I simply try to follow the Scriptures to the best of my ability and allow what the Bible says to guide my thinking on life, the church and eternity. My conscience is clear.
Cool your a teacher. So am I. Sorry I encompassed you in with all the other teachers in the church/forums who assume the role of teacher. I like then have zero qualifications. But we are allowed to do what ever we want with free will.
I do cliam that what you have taught here is wrong and its plian to see. There are no credentials for teachers in scripture that endorse you creedentials any more than mine. And you are correct just because you are a teacher in your country qualified by what ever church orginization does not make you correct. As you are contradicting scripture. So now you are accusing me of making assumptions, even though you choose to ignore the assumptions you made against me. But you now feel you have the right to call me out? For making an assumption.
No you do not allow the bible to speak for its self.

God said clearly Cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, You said no where in the new covanat does it say you should have tounges. I gave you this vesre which totally nuifys what you claimed, You are now sytill in the face of biblical facts running round in circles.
There no way round God wants everyone to speak in tounges. That is a fact. Stop trying to make it fit by dragging up all that you are.
We would all rather prophesy cool. Fact is Tounges is for all.

I didn't say self-edification is bad. I said that no where is this gift said to be something God desires or expects of all believers.
And heres the proof that you are continually ignoring the facts of scripture.
God said clearly Cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues,
Not sure how many times I will need to show you this.



God is more interested in us building up others rather than seeking to build up ourselves.
No God loves and wants whats best for the individual just as much as He does the church. Why would God want someting for a group but not the individual. God loves all equaly. What you are saying is just to make it fit. It doesnt sound like God. Its actually rediculas what you are saying. and it is not scriptural. show the verses that say what you are implying. They aint in the bible.

Nothing wrong with building up ourselves, but the reason tongues is listed lower on the priority list of gifts is because Christians should be more interested in blessing others rather than primarily themselves.
You cant build up your self. How can you if you dont have tounges? You can build up your self with tounges.

Again you are still implying that tounges for the individual is a selfish thing. God wants us all speaking in tounges and you are still saying God is wrong. Forget which one is more valuable and trying to hide behind anther part of the disccuison. Tounges is for all. We are not talking about prophesy. we are talking about toungs for all or not. I and the bible say yes, and you say no. I have xcripture for all. You dont have a scripture that says its only for some. You have a scripture that you are twisting and making it fit what you think or "feel is right"

I think when we highlight tongues as the premiere gift and claim all believers should have it (or falsely accusing people like me as being at fault for believers not having something God wants them to have) then we are misrepresenting both the importance of the gift and the Scripture's teaching on this
Once again you are wondering off into something I never said. You said premiere. I never placed tounges anywhere in line. I said and still say tounges is for all. So please dont add to what I said. I still stand here and accuse you of misleading people. as long as you are contradicting scripture by denying what cor 14:5 says. And you being a teacher. YOU are misleading people. If you teach as you are doing and have done since I came in here. You told us all your qualifications as a teacher. So also being a leader of sorts in this forum. You are teaching, and people in here will either agree with you for various reasons. Or they will see what I am saying is what scripture is saying and agree with me. So in fact you are misleading people espeically as one who holds the title of teacher pastor leader.

Its a gift from God which is good. But it is not 1) something all can or should have 2) listed as one of the more significant gifts 3) something people need to be coached into receiving 4) an expression of spiritual maturity or depth (the Corinthians were very immature, specifically those who were apparently boasting about their gifting in this area) or 5) a gift we are called to pursue above others. Those were my points. My point was not to say the gift was without value.
1 it is clearly something all should have you are misleading all in here.
Cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues,I would, I will, i want, is what God is saying.
2 never said it was listed once again you are trying to make it look like i said something I never.
3Do you have a scripture saying that or is it what you think?
4 Its recieved as you are baptised (thats going full under as Christ did) "with evidence of speaking in tounges"
5 No one said it is a gift to be persude above others. This is what I mean by youadding to this discussion with things that are not a part of it.

There is only one point here are tounges for all or not. You do not have aone scripture that says NO.
 

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I believe Wormwood is mostly right. The Holy Spirit goes where he will and gives gifts as he wills. I was baptized in a lake by a pastor and after that the Pastor said that he was amazed that I didn't come out of the water speaking in tongues , that was 35 yrs ago. still don't have that gift.

But I was baptized by the Holy Spirit when I was 10 yrs old and he gave me a prophesy that has yet to be fulled 65 yrs later.
I was not praying at the time, no one laid hands on me or was praying over me at the time,I was not even thinking about God. I was just standing in the street in front of my home.
When I was hit with a mighty rushing wind that came from behind and above me. I was frozen and could not move. Then I heard a voice say " YOU WILL BE ALIVE WHEN JESUS RETURNS." After that I felt like a heavy weight was lifted from me and I stood up and felt as light as a feather. then I was filled with joy, peace and happiness that words can not describe.
I have asked God many many times over the years why He wants me to be alive when Jesus returns and what does He wants me to do. I have never received an answer. I could tell story after story of the many times God has delivered me from things that could have killed or crippled me. But I just get up and walk away unhurt.

I some times thing God is just doing it to P- - - off the Devil. God said " I send out my word and it will not return unto Me void, but it will accomplish what I sent it out to do "
I do know that I will be standing when Jesus returns. scripture says. " What God tells you in secret shout from the roof tops " so I tell every one who will listen.

I think all the gits of God are in the world, but as the Spirit wills.
Pomp.
 

Sword

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pompadour said:
I believe Wormwood is mostly right. The Holy Spirit goes where he will and gives gifts as he wills. I was baptized in a lake by a pastor and after that the Pastor said that he was amazed that I didn't come out of the water speaking in tongues , that was 35 yrs ago. still don't have that gift.

But I was baptized by the Holy Spirit when I was 10 yrs old and he gave me a prophesy that has yet to be fulled 65 yrs later.
I was not praying at the time, no one laid hands on me or was praying over me at the time,I was not even thinking about God. I was just standing in the street in front of my home.
When I was hit with a mighty rushing wind that came from behind and above me. I was frozen and could not move. Then I heard a voice say " YOU WILL BE ALIVE WHEN JESUS RETURNS." After that I felt like a heavy weight was lifted from me and I stood up and felt as light as a feather. then I was filled with joy, peace and happiness that words can not describe.
I have asked God many many times over the years why He wants me to be alive when Jesus returns and what does He wants me to do. I have never received an answer. I could tell story after story of the many times God has delivered me from things that could have killed or crippled me. But I just get up and walk away unhurt.

I some times thing God is just doing it to P- - - off the Devil. God said " I send out my word and it will not return unto Me void, but it will accomplish what I sent it out to do "
I do know that I will be standing when Jesus returns. scripture says. " What God tells you in secret shout from the roof tops " so I tell every one who will listen.

I think all the gits of God are in the world, but as the Spirit wills.
Pomp.
Thanks for the testimony. I wil always listen to anyones testimony and ponder it. Thank you. Do you know of any others that had this experiance. I think it would help confim what you said to us. I realsie you need no such conformation :) Thanks again.

No one disagreed with wormwood on these points. The dissagrement is clear.
 

pompadour

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Sword said:
Thanks for the testimony. I wil always listen to anyones testimony and ponder it. Thank you. Do you know of any others that had this experiance. I think it would help confim what you said to us. I realsie you need no such conformation :) Thanks again.

No one disagreed with wormwood on these points. The dissagrement is clear.
I think the joy and happiness is similar to what the followers of Jesus had after the Holy Spirit came upon then in the upper room and then went out in to the town and the people thought they were drunk in the middle of the day. Happy singing and dancing ? drunk.

There was one person on the forum, I don't remember what thread it was but they described their baptism of the Holy Spirit with great joy and happiness,
I have never found anyone that said to me, yes the same thing happened to me. I remember reading in Scripture of an old man who met Mary and baby Jesus and said I was told that I would see the Christ child before I died now I have seen him. Why not some one told they would see the second coming of Christ. I don't know. Like I said God never told me why I will see Jesus return.

Like I said, I could tell story after story of how God saved me from death. the day I was born there was a big snow storm. no cars could get through the snow the doctor had to walk a mile to get to our house. the doctor told my father that I had the cord wrapped around my neck three time and would have died if he was not there to deliver me. and the devil has been trying to kill me ever sense, but God keeps His word.

I don't clam to be any one special, I,m probably one of the biggest sinners you will ever meet. BUT, I will be alive when Jesus returns.......
Pomp.
 

Wormwood

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Not at any point in time haveI said /God never said that not all will speak in tounges. Thats a biblical fact. That is not what we are talking about ever in this conversation. We all know thatwas said and isa fact. as I said just exactly the same as are all saved. are all white are all black. The obvious is blatantly NO. So please keep in mind that is NOT what we are debating here.
Sword,

Not sure what you are saying here. Can you restate this?

I am really not interested in what anyone here quotes. As the man who wrote it for you is not here to defend it, So it is utterly pointless quoting what other people wrote. I Dont do google when I am debating. If you need to quote other people then you lack the ability to comunicate and should not get involved. So please dont quote me other peoples work or thougts. Its just not right to do that.
So you are not interested in hearing how Greek grammar works that shows Paul is saying "Do all speak in tongues? NO!"? You are not interested in the comments of scholars who have studied the language for decades? Look if you are only interested in your own opinion and don't want to learn from people who have dedicated their professional lives to studying the Bible and the original languages, then clearly you are unwilling to learn anything and this conversation is only about you sharing your thoughts without any interest in learning from or receiving the thoughts of others. I am not interested in a one-way conversation.

God said wiether it was through paul or God himself matters not a jot. The whole bible is Gods word. I see you jump from God to Paul and paul to God. As I said in the shout box, This is a fine example of leaders who do not understand telling things that suit what they have always believed.
You are misrepresenting me. I believe Paul's letters are inerrant, inspired words from God and I have presented them as such. In fact, Paul's words are the basis of my entire argument and what God says about gifts. You are unwilling to learn what the original Greek actually says, so it seems to me you are the one determined merely to believe what you want to believe.

The clear answer is an absolute fact God and Paul what ALL to speak in tounges. But you still say no? You are a leader here and need to seriously reconcider what you are pushing here.
You aren't following the message Paul is giving in any way. As I told you, Paul says that God determines who receives what gifts and he asks, "Do all speak in tongues? NO (implied in the Greek)." The entire point of this text is that gifts are not to be fought over or lorded over others. God gives different gifts as he wills and we should appreciate diversity in the body and desire gifts that build the body. You are doing the exact opposite of what Paul is arguing. You are exalting a particular gift above the others and using it as rationale to be divisive and mean-spirited toward other believers. You are missing the whole point of these passages, Imo.


The gifts are available to all. But not all will stand and recive becausepeople like you are holding the church back.

I aint confussed in this anywhere. The gift is available full stop. Why are you adding something that id not there.
It seems you are just repeating yourself and not adding anything else to the discussion or responding to the texts or material I provided other than to dig in deeper to your previously stated views. I already spoke to your one argument in 1 For 14:5..but I will do so again for clarity.

You have to read this verse IN CONTEXT. We can make the Bible say whatever we want if we decide to isolate verses from their context and quote them as if they stand alone. Yet that is not how the Bible was written or intended to be read. Paul does say he wished they all had tongues. He also says, he wished even more that they all prophesied. So does this mean we are all prophets too? Can everyone be a prophet based on this rationale of yours? Paul's point here is merely to validate the gift of tongues. It is a valuable gift. However, he emphasizes the fact that it is not THE most important gift and if there is a gift people should desire to have, it should be prophesy rather than tongues. I don't understand why that is hard to see. You know, Moses also says he wished everyone was a prophet. That doesn't mean everyone can be a prophet or that God desires all to be prophets.

Again, Paul's whole point here is that we need DIVERSITY in the body. If everyone is a hand, how would we see? If everyone is a tongue, how would we walk? That is his point. Yes, Paul says it would be great if everyone spoke in tongues, but it would be even better if everyone was a prophet! Why? Because the church only needs prophets? NO! Because prophecy builds up others. Paul's focus to them is that they need to be concerned with using their gifts to bless others rather than exalt themselves and create division (which is what they were clearly doing).

In sum, you need to read all of chapters 12-14 to understand the thrust of what Paul (and the Holy Spirit) is saying. He is NOT saying that all can or should speak in tongues. He clearly says this in chapter 12 when he says, "Do all speak in tongues? (NO!)". He goes on to say, everyone has different gifts so rather than comparing with each other we should value the other gifts and what they contribute to the body. Finally, he says, that the most important thing about gifts is that we use them to love one another. Thus, though it would be great if all could speak in tongues (this doesn't mean God wants this) it would be even better if all could prophesy because that is a gift that actually builds others up in love (this doesn't mean God wants all to be prophets either).

The final point I would make (which I have already made yet you seem to think I am avoiding your question) is that NOWHERE does Paul say people need to be coached or trained into receiving this gift. You keep saying I am at fault for people not having the gift of tongues. Yet the Bible clearly says that the Holy Spirit gives the gift "as he wills."

“All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.” (1 Corinthians 12:11, ESV)

So how can you say that I am at fault for someone not having a gift? Do you think I am more powerful than the will of God? Can I thwart God's desire to gift a spiritual gift? Look at how tongues was given in Acts 2....look at how tongues was given in Acts 10... Do you see any teaching, training or coaching before these people spoke in tongues? Did they need someone to tell them to try to start speaking in a certain way? Of course not. These people didn't even know what tongues was when they received it. Look at Acts 10! Even Peter, the preacher, was shocked when they started speaking in tongues!

So how can you say people need to be coached and the reason people do not have the gift is because I am preventing them? This is the most baffling thing I have ever read. You claim God desires all to have the gift of tongues and the Holy Spirit gives gifts as he wills, yet somehow, little ol me is responsible for great multitudes not receiving a spiritual gift God desires to bestow. Show me where someone received tongues through coaching in the Bible, or where someone was hindered from receiving a spiritual gift because of some teaching they heard. This is utter nonsense and you are making some heavy accusations that I am thwarting the desires and efforts of God...when you don't know me at all or what I teach on a regular basis. As I said, I hardly ever comment on this topic unless someone specifically brings it up. Why? Because gifts should be something we use for others, not something we divide and argue over.


1 it is clearly something all should have you are misleading all in here.
Cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues,I would, I will, i want, is what God is saying.
2 never said it was listed once again you are trying to make it look like i said something I never.
3Do you have a scripture saying that or is it what you think?
4 Its recieved as you are baptised (thats going full under as Christ did) "with evidence of speaking in tounges"
5 No one said it is a gift to be persude above others. This is what I mean by youadding to this discussion with things that are not a part of it.

There is only one point here are tounges for all or not. You do not have aone scripture that says NO.
1. I have responded to this multiple times now.
2. By you claiming it is something all should have and that it has such significance...you clearly think this is a preeminent gift. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.
3. You are the one who needs to provide a scripture here. I have provided two scriptures that show people receiving the gift with no coaching or teaching on the gift. Thus, the precedent is that this gift does NOT need to be taught or coached in order to receive it. The burden is on you to prove otherwise. You are making arguments from silence. I am trying to base mine in the precedents of Scripture.
4. There are a lot of assumptions here. There are multiple instances of people being baptized in Scripture and not receiving tongues. In fact, Acts 10 seems to indicate that Peter was shocked that the gift of tongues was given to these individuals. One would think that Paul would say, "Do all speak in tongues? Yes, that is how we know we 'have gone full under.'" What in the world does "gone full under" even mean? Fully committed? Fully immersed in water? Fully Christian?
5. How can you say this when in the previous statement you are claiming that it is received "with going full under" (not sure what that means). Does this mean fully immersed in water? Fully committed to Jesus? None of this language is Biblical in my opinion.
 

Sword

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Wormwood you are trying to teach me Greek and you dont know what baptised is? Would you like me to teach you about what baptised is in the Greek? Is there any point me trying to teach you Greek if you cant See God wants all to speak in touges but they wont because. Here is the very simple version, we baptise our dishes every night. In a nut sheell. You are adding confusion on baptisim now, And you said your a teacher. Why would you do that? And I dont like "seems to indicate" what kind of teaching is that? Thats confusion.



people saying its not for all and clearly you are one of them.
The whole church teaches what you are teaching so no wonder not all will speak in tounges.
Any thing you ask in my name I will give it to you, means nothing to you, because of what you teach.
Everything is a Go everything in God is Yes and Amen. But clearly not in your teaching.
God never used the word nor Paul I wish Paul wishing on a star. No that is you not bible.
As long as we believe and dont doubt in your heart.

I started a new thread as this one is destroyed with you bringing in confusion and evading the question. You have added in a load of junk to a very straight forward question. Is tounges for all yes or no. Its simple. Please leave the other thread to other poeple to make a call. Your is like a typical ministers sermon. full of confusion from misunderstanding. Just like the aversge church. They are mostly all full of confusion. So many denominations and none saying the same as the other. there are very many wrong teachings out there . They cant all be right. One God One word. One bible one Church. And all of them think they are right. Wrong.
 

bbyrd009

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i think as long as one insists upon defining tongues from their own premises, which invariably take on a religious tone due to their portrayal in Scripture, they will misunderstand their function. Or at least i did. It might be instructive to contemplate that Christians perceive SiT as glossololia, or put another way, as a language that no one can understand that requires an interpreter, whereas when the Apostles et al SiT, everyone understood in their own language, and crowds were "daily amazed."

Granting also that we have passages about tongues with interpretation, imo it becomes necessary to contrast the two, whereas we do not do this anymore. And when you seek the verse that joins the Witnesses of xenoglossy to the ones of needing an interpreter, you cannot find it. I suggest that if one reads a bit less literally, it is possible to recognize how one might "touch someone and make them well" for instance, without the "miraculous" scenario that we think we are reading from Scripture playing out, at least in the way we choose to read it.

Or by all means, you might keep looking for miracles, and either being disappointed when you are perceived to have failed, or barring that, begin manufacturing either miracles or explanations for the failures, but note that we can witness any of these happening at times for healing, and we know that you won't find miracle healers in hospitals, ostensibly for the same reason psychics do not win lotteries.

And i see pretty much the same thing going on with tongues. So, you might contemplate a progression something like this; "Lets tell this story in such a way that a spiritual principle is imparted, and so that anyone reading literally will see and not see, and be confounded when they cannot reproduce xenoglossy, or part waters with their own staff, etc, thus forcing either a self-examination or a hypocrisy to take root, that one's heart may be revealed."

1Cor12:28...diversities of tongues.
 

Wormwood

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Sword said:
Wormwood you are trying to teach me Greek and you dont know what baptised is? Would you like me to teach you about what baptised is in the Greek? Is there any point me trying to teach you Greek if you cant See God wants all to speak in touges but they wont because. Here is the very simple version, we baptise our dishes every night. In a nut sheell. You are adding confusion on baptisim now, And you said your a teacher. Why would you do that? And I dont like "seems to indicate" what kind of teaching is that? Thats confusion.



people saying its not for all and clearly you are one of them.
The whole church teaches what you are teaching so no wonder not all will speak in tounges.
Any thing you ask in my name I will give it to you, means nothing to you, because of what you teach.
Everything is a Go everything in God is Yes and Amen. But clearly not in your teaching.
God never used the word nor Paul I wish Paul wishing on a star. No that is you not bible.
As long as we believe and dont doubt in your heart.

I started a new thread as this one is destroyed with you bringing in confusion and evading the question. You have added in a load of junk to a very straight forward question. Is tounges for all yes or no. Its simple. Please leave the other thread to other poeple to make a call. Your is like a typical ministers sermon. full of confusion from misunderstanding. Just like the aversge church. They are mostly all full of confusion. So many denominations and none saying the same as the other. there are very many wrong teachings out there . They cant all be right. One God One word. One bible one Church. And all of them think they are right. Wrong.
I know Koine Greek. Do you? Yes I know what baptism means. I don't know what "gone full under" means. You need to be more specific if you are going to reference something like baptism. More than that, different Christian groups have different views on the meaning and significance of baptism. Some believe in water baptism. Some in spiritual baptism. Some believe spiritual baptism takes place at the moment of water baptism. Some believe in sprinkling. So, I don't know to which you are referring when you say "gone full under." I try not to assume I know what you believe, so "gone full under" does not help me. You need to be more specific.

So it seems you are avoiding my comments about those who received the gift of tongues in the NT without asking for it. Again, Paul says the Spirit gifts the gift "as HE wills." He does not say, "the Spirit gives gifts as YOU ask." Yes, perhaps the Spirit will give us what we desire, but no where does the Bible teach that God is handcuffed from making people "go full under" because they didn't ask for tongues. Again, Paul isn't even telling them to ask for tongues! He is telling them to ask for prophecy...which seems weird if tongues is a requirement for "going full under." (still not sure what that means in your view)

Hmm. Ok, so you PM me to respond to your comments, and when I respond with my views and try to support them with biblical references, you say I am messing up your thread. You asked for my views and I am sharing them. Again, you don't have to accept them. But I thought the point of this was to dialogue and exchange views and ideas. Very well. I will stop commenting if it is bothering you. Just don't ask people in PMs to comment on your thread and then chew them out for doing so.
 

Sword

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You brought in all manner of things that have nothing to do with the two scriptures. Not needed or helpfull in a very simple question.
The whole thread is a mess. The same thing is happening in the other thread because of the ignorance of men who say the are a Christian. And could not even respect my request. Pathetic really.
 

Wormwood

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Sword said:
You brought in all manner of things that have nothing to do with the two scriptures. Not needed or helpfull in a very simple question.
The whole thread is a mess. The same thing is happening in the other thread because of the ignorance of men who say the are a Christian. And could not even respect my request. Pathetic really.
I think you are responding to the wrong thread, Sword. This is not the thread where you asked for the yes or no question. So I have not violated any request you made.