Wormwood
Chaps
You said, "The average Christian thinks Jesus died so they can go to heaven." You claimed this was not true. I am simply pointing out that that very much is part of why Jesus died. You can call it the OCV or whatever. The point is still the same. Jesus died so we could be a part of God's kingdom. Jesus came to "SEEK" and "SAVE" that which was lost. Clearly saving the lost here implies bringing people back to God who have wondered off (i.e lost sheep, lost coin, lost son parables). So lets not get into a game of semantics here. Most people understand "heaven" as being reconciled and united with God for all eternity. The reason God wants to restore our "value" is so that we can be with him and see him as he is. In other words, he came to transform us so we will be fit to dwell in the presence of God forever. That is what most people understand HEAVEN to be...the dwelling place of God.Sword said:So You you claimed I fail to see that I am saved from and for. How do you know what I know? Why did you jump in and make a ludicrus staement like that? You dont know me. You have no idea what I know or dont know.
Jesus never died so you get a ticket for heaven. Jesus died to restore the Kindom of heaven. Jesus died to restore you to you Original Created Value. (OCV)
Yes we are saved from Gods wrath and all you quoted. Great. But the word saved means we are healed. We are preseved. We are rescued. The fact that most Christian think its a ticket to heaven is very evident in church circles. But what is ignored and activly argued against is we are healed. By His stripes we are healed. And from there we go on to lay hands on the sick and every thing changes from there as we become like Him and act and walk like Him and grow into Christ. We fully represent Him every where we go. This is the huge part we all missed and obviously I was correct you never mentioned it. No one is blaming anyone it all comes from misundestanding and all the misteaching that has gone out from all the churches and is still going on.
You are assumiong the role of teacher and many many others are doing the same me included. I fully understand that Jas 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. And am ready to stand for that. Why do we treat this verse so lightly. For 23 years I thought I knew it well. $ years later. I know almost infinitly more than I thought I did 4 years ago. ANd theres more. So I dont teach on what I dont know. I dont debate on what I dont know. I talk/teach on what I do know.
Moreover, I am a teacher. I am not assuming anything. Now, you can claim that my teaching does not line up with the Bible. That is fine. I don't expect everyone to agree with me and it doesn't hurt my feelings if you don't. However, I have been a pastor for over 15 years and I am currently endorsed by a Christian faith group that sponsors me as a Chaplain in the US Navy. So, yes, I am a teacher. I am recognized as a teacher. I have the credentials as a teacher and I have served as a teacher, preacher and church leader for a very long time. I am not trying to toot my own horn. Just because I am a teacher doesn't mean I am right, I understand that. However, I am not assuming anything. You are the one making the assumptions here. I will be happy to stand before God and give an account for what I teach. I simply try to follow the Scriptures to the best of my ability and allow what the Bible says to guide my thinking on life, the church and eternity. My conscience is clear.
I didn't say self-edification is bad. I said that no where is this gift said to be something God desires or expects of all believers. God is more interested in us building up others rather than seeking to build up ourselves. Nothing wrong with building up ourselves, but the reason tongues is listed lower on the priority list of gifts is because Christians should be more interested in blessing others rather than primarily themselves. I think when we highlight tongues as the premiere gift and claim all believers should have it (or falsely accusing people like me as being at fault for believers not having something God wants them to have) then we are misrepresenting both the importance of the gift and the Scripture's teaching on this subject. Its a gift from God which is good. But it is not 1) something all can or should have 2) listed as one of the more significant gifts 3) something people need to be coached into receiving 4) an expression of spiritual maturity or depth (the Corinthians were very immature, specifically those who were apparently boasting about their gifting in this area) or 5) a gift we are called to pursue above others. Those were my points. My point was not to say the gift was without value.No paul is not teaching the opposite. He is telling them tounges is not the big one. You clian self edification as if it is bad. You are contradicting the meaning of edification. Is edifcation ever bad for you? No. Its to build you up.