The gift of tongues

[OzSpen]

"I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied;...."

It sure seems like he is simply exhorting those first Corinthians to seek to prophesy, instead of speaking in tongues. Along with the 12th chapter, he probably isn't saying every believer should speak in tongues. Wouldn't the 2000 years of the church have shown more tongue speaking in it's history if all were supposed to do that?

tabletalk,

1 Cor 14:2 makes the purpose of tongues clear: 'For if you have the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking only to God, since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious' (NLT).

When I speak in tongues by the power of the Spirit in my devotions at home, I am 'talking only to God'. That's what the Bible says.

In the church gathering, 'anyone who speaks in tongues should pray also for the ability to interpret what has been said' (1 Cor 14;13 NLT). Also, 'if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately' (1 Cor 14:28 NLT).

What's the purpose of tongues + interpretation and prophecy when the church gathers: 'I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you. 19 But in a church meeting I would rather speak five understandable words to help others than ten thousand words in an unknown language (1 Cor 14:18-19 NLT).

Intelligibility on the church with the gifts and ministry of the Spirit was Paul's emphasis in 1 Cor 12-14. Therefore, in the church gathering (mostly house churches in the early church) people must understand the ministry gifts that are manifested.

Oz

 

[bbyrd009]

19 But in a church meeting I would rather speak five understandable words to help others than ten thousand words in an unknown language (1 Cor 14:18-19 NLT).

Word. not that this admonition slows anyone down, much. Can't help but notice that the tongues most earnestly sought by the religious are the same ones we are expressly told are for unbelievers lol.

 

[Helen]

This thread seems to have wobbled about a bit since the opening post..but most thread do ha!
Yes I do. I received 3 years after I became a 'believing believer.' ( some believers don't do much believing )
I see a difference in the word between speaking in tongues and the gift of tongues. As someone mentioned, they are not the same. One is for prayer, praise and warfare...the other 'gift of' is given for the church gathering as a message to the flock. As is, interpretation of tongues, prophesy, word of knowledge etc etc.. as Paul says.
As I read it..The Holy Spirit Himself is the gift giver ..when we receive Him we receive what He gives for the edifying of the body of Christ. As someone already mentioned, God did not give all the gifts in a lump to any of us individually...but He gave different gifts as He wills through the local body group. .... For the maturing and growth of the Body. As Paul said -"Every member supplying"... When we lived back in England we were blessed to be in a fellowship which had all the gifts flowing in the meetings...each willing to give what God had anointed them with to share.
Since coming to Canada 40 years ago, we have never found any group who knows or cares to see God in action and freedom that way in a body group gathering. But, we are blessed to have been a part of that. So praise God.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Where does the bible exclude anyone from any gift?

And if you could explain why I would not need anyone if I had all the gifts or anyone else?

If you could just give scriptures for all the claims you made please thank you.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

So not all speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

That means not one believer can be given all the gifts of the Spirit for then he would be able to say I have no need of any one else in the body of Christ.

And that is what is happening when tongue speakers say they can have tongues without interpretation. They are saying that they do not need interpretation, thus proving that the origin of that tongue as supposedly having received the Holy Spirit apart from salvation is not of Him since the real God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people that it has to come with interpretation.

Believers are to not believe every spirit but test them ( 1 John 4:1-7 ) and if they encounter a phenomenon where they think the Holy Spirit is coming over them "again" if not for the first time as being separate from salvation in bringing this tongue without interpretation, then He will help you to see that this is not of Him at all ( 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 ). Believers that discern this need Him for help to shun vain & profane babbling and pray normally so that they may know what they had prayed for to give the Father genuine thanks in Jesus's name for answered prayers which is the will of God for all of us to do plainly.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Ephesians 5:20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Colossians 3:17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

 

[Sword]

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

So not all speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

That means not one believer can be given all the gifts of the Spirit for then he would be able to say I have no need of any one else in the body of Christ.

And that is what is happening when tongue speakers say they can have tongues without interpretation. They are saying that they do not need interpretation, thus proving that the origin of that tongue as supposedly having received the Holy Spirit apart from salvation is not of Him since the real God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people that it has to come with interpretation.

Believers are to not believe every spirit but test them ( 1 John 4:1-7 ) and if they encounter a phenomenon where they think the Holy Spirit is coming over them "again" if not for the first time as being separate from salvation in bringing this tongue without interpretation, then He will help you to see that this is not of Him at all ( 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 ). Believers that discern this need Him for help to shun vain & profane babbling and pray normally so that they may know what they had prayed for to give the Father genuine thanks in Jesus's name for answered prayers which is the will of God for all of us to do plainly.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Ephesians 5:20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Colossians 3:17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Do you think you are th first to quote this. Have you read the whole thresad or just thought you would give what you thought 4 months later?

 

[OzSpen]

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

So not all speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

That means not one believer can be given all the gifts of the Spirit for then he would be able to say I have no need of any one else in the body of Christ.

And that is what is happening when tongue speakers say they can have tongues without interpretation. They are saying that they do not need interpretation, thus proving that the origin of that tongue as supposedly having received the Holy Spirit apart from salvation is not of Him since the real God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people that it has to come with interpretation.

Believers are to not believe every spirit but test them ( 1 John 4:1-7 ) and if they encounter a phenomenon where they think the Holy Spirit is coming over them "again" if not for the first time as being separate from salvation in bringing this tongue without interpretation, then He will help you to see that this is not of Him at all ( 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 ). Believers that discern this need Him for help to shun vain & profane babbling and pray normally so that they may know what they had prayed for to give the Father genuine thanks in Jesus's name for answered prayers which is the will of God for all of us to do plainly.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Ephesians 5:20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Colossians 3:17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

JIF,

This is not what the Scriptures teach. There is a place for the gifts of tongues without interpretation in one's personal devotions. How do I know? The Bible tells me so.

• 1 Cor 14:2, 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit' (NIV).
• 1 Cor 14:28, 'If there is no interpreter [of the tongues], the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God' (NIV).

Therefore, these verses prove that this following statement of yours is false:

And that is what is happening when tongue speakers say they can have tongues without interpretation. They are saying that they do not need interpretation, thus proving that the origin of that tongue as supposedly having received the Holy Spirit apart from salvation is not of Him since the real God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people that it has to come with interpretation.

For you to label the Holy Spirit's gift of tongues as 'vain & profane babbling' is an abomination. It is you who is pushing your ungodly interpretation onto the Scriptures. In biblical interpretation, this is called eisegesis.

Oz

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

JIF,

This is not what the Scriptures teach. There is a place for the gifts of tongues without interpretation in one's personal devotions. How do I know? The Bible tells me so.

• 1 Cor 14:2, 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit' (NIV).
• 1 Cor 14:28, 'If there is no interpreter [of the tongues], the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God' (NIV).

Therefore, these verses prove that this following statement of yours is false:

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Paul just told believers to seek prophesy over all spiritual gift if they seek one. He began to explain why below.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

By comparing the two gifts together, Paul is now explaining why the gift of prophesy is better AND proving that if any one speaks tongues, it has to come with interpretation, because it is not a stand alone gift. Read how Paul shifts from comparing the two gifts to the gift of tongue as he never gave an indication here that it did not need to come with interpretation.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

All throughout that chapter, the same tongue in verse 2 is the same tongue that needs interpretation because it is not a stand alone gift unless understood by a foreigner. It was and always will be of other men's lips to speak unto the people. That is why the gift of prophesy is better.

1 Corinthians 12:7-11 testify that the gifts are given in the assembly to profit the body withal; not individually. That is how you were to read the 14 chapter with that precedent. No one is edified by tongues alone as Paul just told everyone that the tongue he is saying is unfruitful even to himself and so he prays that anther may interpret so that he may understand and be fruitful. So by comparing the 2 gifts, he was going about it in a way to acknowledge that God's gift of tongues can edify himself BUT it cannot stand alone for edification because he speaks in mysteries & thus unfruitful whereas the gift of prophesy can stand alone because it is understood and edification is received right away. Verses 20-22 has Paul giving the bottomline on tongues in case any one misunderstood him, and that it was of other men's lips to speak unto the people. It was never to serve as a sign to believers to seek after as proof of receiving the Holy Spirit "again" or for the first time as if it can happen separate from salvation.

For you to label the Holy Spirit's gift of tongues as 'vain & profane babbling' is an abomination. It is you who is pushing your ungodly interpretation onto the Scriptures. In biblical interpretation, this is called eisegesis.

Oz

1 Corinthians 12th chapter testify that no one member can say to another that he does not need any one, and yet that is what you, as a tongue speaker, are doing when you say you can babble without interpretation and be self edified, taking Paul's words out of context because Paul is admitting he is not edified until it is interpreted.

The origin of this tongue that never comes with interpretation is gained by apostasy, seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again by evidence of tongues OR seeking to receive the Holy Spirit as separate from salvation with evidence of tongues. How are you not alarmed by these references?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Tongue speakers who use Acts 8 are not understanding why there was a delay, but they were not saved until they had received the Holy Ghost, including Simon.

Tongue speakers who use Acts 19 are not reading it rightly when it is about the disciples of John the Baptist's that Paul had come across.

Scripture cannot go against scripture.

And the most reproving one of all is the one that do not take it literally below.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. KJV

Does not matter what Bible version you use, John 16:13 is proof that all modern Bibles have translated Romans 8:26-27 wrong, because the Holy Spirit can only speaks what He hears; He cannot speak for Himself or on His own accord or on His own authority. Period. The KJV has it right as scripture of John 16:13 will line up with Romans 8:26-27.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

The Greek word "alaletos" means unutterable and unspeakable.

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version

from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of lalew - laleo 2980; unspeakable:--unutterable, which cannot be uttered.

It is the groanings that are unutterable and thus unspeakable. That means no sound at all. Period.

That is why Another is needed to know the mind of the Spirit to give His intercessions to the Father for the Spirit. It is the same One that searches our hearts as confirmed in Hebrews 4:12-16 at that throne of grace which is in according to the will of God of there only being One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

We are not to even pray to the Holy Spirit because He cannot answer prayers when it is the will of the Father to be glorified in the Son because only the Son answers those prayers just as He is the only One at that throne of grace, but we can take comfort in the Comforter as He is in us making intercessions for us even though He cannot utter them or speak them.

Unless Catholics and tongue speakers recognize how the prayer system is set up in the heavenly realm, they are in iniquity until they repent by discerning with Jesus's help, good and evil by His words in the KJV to see why they need His help to shun all other "mediators" in the spiritual realm for any one coming inbetween us and the Bridegroom, are the seducing spirits masquerading as Mary or the Holy Spirit.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber..........7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.9 I am the door:

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

JIF,

This is not what the Scriptures teach. There is a place for the gifts of tongues without interpretation in one's personal devotions. How do I know? The Bible tells me so.

• 1 Cor 14:2, 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit' (NIV).
• 1 Cor 14:28, 'If there is no interpreter [of the tongues], the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God' (NIV).

Therefore, these verses prove that this following statement of yours is false:

For you to label the Holy Spirit's gift of tongues as 'vain & profane babbling' is an abomination. It is you who is pushing your ungodly interpretation onto the Scriptures. In biblical interpretation, this is called eisegesis.

Oz

I believe in God's gift of tongues to be of other men's lips to speak unto the people. I believe the Holy Spirit cannot use tongues as a prayer language. I believe this supernatural tongue that is just vain and profane babbling is not of Him and can be found in the world of the occult and other religions and cults in christianity. Indeed, I would say that because the RCC had referenced tongues in the early church as evidence as a sign that they were keeping the doctrines within shows why I believe it is "mystery Babylon" as they do teach members to seek the gifts directly from the Spirit in prayer which is why that tongue was never of other men's lips to speak unto the people for they sought it not from the Son.

And like it or not, most tongue speakers that seek after tongues, do so by addressing the Holy Spirit and seeking to receive the Holy Spirit to get that tongue. Some tongue speakers receive tongue by what they believe to be the Holy Spirit coming over them later on in life which inspires other to seek after that phenomenon and even drive some with fear because they will hear a few of them say that was when they were saved when they had received the Holy Spirit and tongues all at once.

And some will take the event to mean God is calling them into the ministry as Joyce Meyers have testified.

They do not know what that event is and so they all try to assume because they want that to be of God.

And it does not stop there. An author testified that there are 3 baptisms of the Holy Ghost. The fromer co worker that was a pastor was telling me that he believes there are five baptisms of the Holy Ghost. His daughter was upset one day because she was saying her dad made a "blue room" to help believers blank out their minds from all the distractions around them and just concentrate on receiving the Spirit & tongues.

Then you have all these movements of the "Spirit" where believes fall down, receive uncontrollable laughter, be struck mute in mid-sentence, and other sensational signs in the flesh in receiving the Holy Spirit again and again and again. All this by addressing & invoking the Holy Spirit to respond.

In spite that there is such a thing as a Catholic Charismatic Church, not at any time has the Holy Spirit made any utterance to correct them from doing the works of catholicism.

No good tree will produce an evil fruit. No evil tree can produce a good fruit. You will know thr fruit of a fale prophet by how it gathers grapes of thorns and figs of thistles; thus being ecumenical in nature.

So by God's grace & by His help, I can say in according to His words, tongues without interpretation as gained by apostasy by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation is not of Him but a departure from the faith that is in Jesus Christ for we have received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the hearing of the gospel.

That is why you are reading 1 Corinthians 14th chapter wrong. I know what Paul is trying to do and that is to exhort believers to seek the gift of prophesy over all gifts including tongues, but somehow tongue speakers seem to think Paul was exhorting tongues over prophesy, and that they can speak in tongues with no interpretation in the assembly as if the Holy Spirit only wishes to edify the individual who still does not understand it thus giving the appearance that the tongue speaker does not need anybody in the body as if that is what the gifts are used for in the body when 1 Corinthians 12th chapter testified the gifts are to profit the body withal which is why it has to come with interpretation to be fruitful to the tongue speaker in the assembly or any where.

So don't believe every spirit. Test the tongues as well as the spirit because tongues were never meant to serve as a prayer language nor as a means of self edification when it is hardly fruitful to the tongue speaker as Paul prayed for the understanding of that tongue as manifested by the Spirit in the assembly, thus proving it was hardly edifying to himself until it was interpreted by another as manifested by the Spirit to profit the body withal.

 

[OzSpen]

• 1 Cor 14:2, 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit' (NIV).
• 1 Cor 14:28, 'If there is no interpreter [of the tongues], the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God' (NIV).

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Paul just told believers to seek prophesy over all spiritual gift if they seek one. He began to explain why below.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

By comparing the two gifts together, Paul is now explaining why the gift of prophesy is better AND proving that if any one speaks tongues, it has to come with interpretation, because it is not a stand alone gift. Read how Paul shifts from comparing the two gifts to the gift of tongue as he never gave an indication here that it did not need to come with interpretation.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

All throughout that chapter, the same tongue in verse 2 is the same tongue that needs interpretation because it is not a stand alone gift unless understood by a foreigner. It was and always will be of other men's lips to speak unto the people. That is why the gift of prophesy is better.

1 Corinthians 12:7-11 testify that the gifts are given in the assembly to profit the body withal; not individually. That is how you were to read the 14 chapter with that precedent. No one is edified by tongues alone as Paul just told everyone that the tongue he is saying is unfruitful even to himself and so he prays that anther may interpret so that he may understand and be fruitful. So by comparing the 2 gifts, he was going about it in a way to acknowledge that God's gift of tongues can edify himself BUT it cannot stand alone for edification because he speaks in mysteries & thus unfruitful whereas the gift of prophesy can stand alone because it is understood and edification is received right away. Verses 20-22 has Paul giving the bottomline on tongues in case any one misunderstood him, and that it was of other men's lips to speak unto the people. It was never to serve as a sign to believers to seek after as proof of receiving the Holy Spirit "again" or for the first time as if it can happen separate from salvation.

1 Corinthians 12th chapter testify that no one member can say to another that he does not need any one, and yet that is what you, as a tongue speaker, are doing when you say you can babble without interpretation and be self edified, taking Paul's words out of context because Paul is admitting he is not edified until it is interpreted.

The origin of this tongue that never comes with interpretation is gained by apostasy, seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again by evidence of tongues OR seeking to receive the Holy Spirit as separate from salvation with evidence of tongues. How are you not alarmed by these references?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Tongue speakers who use Acts 8 are not understanding why there was a delay, but they were not saved until they had received the Holy Ghost, including Simon.

Tongue speakers who use Acts 19 are not reading it rightly when it is about the disciples of John the Baptist's that Paul had come across.

Scripture cannot go against scripture.

And the most reproving one of all is the one that do not take it literally below.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. KJV

Does not matter what Bible version you use, John 16:13 is proof that all modern Bibles have translated Romans 8:26-27 wrong, because the Holy Spirit can only speaks what He hears; He cannot speak for Himself or on His own accord or on His own authority. Period. The KJV has it right as scripture of John 16:13 will line up with Romans 8:26-27.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

The Greek word "alaletos" means unutterable and unspeakable.

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version

It is the groanings that are unutterable and thus unspeakable. That means no sound at all. Period.

That is why Another is needed to know the mind of the Spirit to give His intercessions to the Father for the Spirit. It is the same One that searches our hearts as confirmed in Hebrews 4:12-16 at that throne of grace which is in according to the will of God of there only being One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

We are not to even pray to the Holy Spirit because He cannot answer prayers when it is the will of the Father to be glorified in the Son because only the Son answers those prayers just as He is the only One at that throne of grace, but we can take comfort in the Comforter as He is in us making intercessions for us even though He cannot utter them or speak them.

Unless Catholics and tongue speakers recognize how the prayer system is set up in the heavenly realm, they are in iniquity until they repent by discerning with Jesus's help, good and evil by His words in the KJV to see why they need His help to shun all other "mediators" in the spiritual realm for any one coming inbetween us and the Bridegroom, are the seducing spirits masquerading as Mary or the Holy Spirit.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber..........7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.9 I am the door:

JIF,

You have a bad habit of not responding to the specific issues I raise. Then you give me a snow job of words to try to cover up your absence of dealing with the issues.

Until you address the specifics of the issues I raise and do it briefly, I will not be responding to you any further on this topic.

Oz

 

[Sword]

You have a bad habit of not responding to the specific issues I raise.

Quite a few have that habit. I called it selective replying

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

JIF,

You have a bad habit of not responding to the specific issues I raise. Then you give me a snow job of words to try to cover up your absence of dealing with the issues.

Until you address the specifics of the issues I raise and do it briefly, I will not be responding to you any further on this topic.

Oz

I was replying how you were wrong when applying those two verses out of context on the issue of tongues that can be used as claimed by you without interpretation by showing other scripture since scripture cannot go against scripture as proof that you were reading your tongues into those selected verses taken out of context of what Paul was saying. I went so far to address the origin of your tongue from which you seem to believe that believers receive the Holy Spirit as apart from their salvation.

By the grace of God & His help, I was defending the faith in Jesus Christ whereas you are preaching something else in His name in defending tongues without interpretation. So let's look at your verses then.

• 1 Cor 14:2, 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit' (NIV).
• 1 Cor 14:28, 'If there is no interpreter [of the tongues], the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God' (NIV).

Verse 2. If the tongue speaker is speaking to God, then there are mysteries that God does not know. Would this not testify that God does not know everything, seeing how the Holy Spirit is speaking to God in mysteries? But no. Paul is comparing the gift of tongue to the gift of prophesy where as to the tongue speaker & the hearers it is in mysteries which is why interpretation is needed for edification and why the gift of prophesy is better. So when the tongue speaker speaks unto God, it is with the understanding that God knows what He is saying, but it is still towards the people because it is being uttered to be heard unto the people thus proof it needs interpretation.

Do note the difference between verse 2 & verse 28 because in verse 2, the tongue speaker is not speaking to himself, but in verse 28, he is. This is to point out what Paul was meaning when speaking unto God in that God understand s what he is saying in verse 2 but the tongue speaker does not whereas in verse 28, the person speaking is speaking unto himself and unto God meaning he understands what he is saying as God does.

The church at Corinth did get foreign visitors that would speak out of turn and that is known by what? When there is no interpetation. That is why in the KJV he is told to be silent as Paul was explaining that when it comes without interpretation, that is a foreigner speaking out of order.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

That is what is meant by speaking not unto men because no man understand the tongue speaker, but unto God because He does understand him, not that the tongue speaker is speaking TO God, but that God understands what he is saying, albeit it is spoken unto the men in mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

If we are to take Paul at his word not to forbid speaking in tongues, then how can he order any one to be silent when there is no interpretor? If tongues can be used by the Holy Spirit as a prayer language, who is Paul to dictate otherwise when the Holy Spirit wants to pray? Why not say, when there is no interpretor, let everyone take time out because the Holy Spirit is praying now, and so everyone speaks in tongues as they are propmpted by what they believe is the Holy Spirit leading them to do.

But Paul never said that. And for you to take that to mean believers can speak in tongue quietly while a service is going on, come on. How annoying is it when people talk around you when you are trying to hear the sermon or whomever? Imagine the confusion when everyone takes your cues to speak in tongues "quietly". Not what Paul meant, because everyone would be speaking in tongues "quietly".

1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

But I have a feeling that you will doubt His words and gloss over portions of scripture clarifying that tongues were meant to come with interpretation, but you will only see why tongues is better than prophesy because you do not need interpretation to be self edified by, and yet that was not the gift Paul was referring to for believers to seek after.

Does any one else wonder why this receiving of the Holy Spirit with the gift of prophesy is not the calling that tongue speakers should give instead? But it is not given because that is not how you receive the gifts of the Spirit by receiving the Holy Spirit "again" if not for the first time separate from salvation. So this other calling and this other baptism of the Holy Spirit separate from salvation has to give pause when tongues is the only sign that this comes by in regards to the gifts of the Spirit when Paul, as led by the Spirit, was telling everyone to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. Then Paul compared prophesy against tongues by itself to explain why, because thru out that chapter, Paul said tongues are for speaking unto the people ( vs 21 ) and thus needs interpretation whereas is how the gift of prophesy is better because every one would understand edification right away.

Only God can help you to see how you are applying those verses 2 & 28 wrong. I was using other scripture to prove you were reading those two verses wrong since scripture cannot go against scripture as ar as the KJV is concern. It is not so in modern Bibles which is why tongue speakers are unable to discern good & evil by that tongue and by that apostasy of thinking you can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by the sign of that TONGUE which is relevant to proving that you are reading those 2 verses wrong.

 

[OzSpen]

Quite a few have that habit. I called it selective replying

It could also be a technique of avoidance.

 

[OzSpen]

By the grace of God & His help, I was defending the faith in Jesus Christ whereas you are preaching something else in His name in defending tongues without interpretation. So let's look at your verses then.

• 1 Cor 14:2, 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit' (NIV).
• 1 Cor 14:28, 'If there is no interpreter [of the tongues], the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God' (NIV).

Verse 2. If the tongue speaker is speaking to God, then there are mysteries that God does not know.

JIF,

That is not what 1 Cor 14:2, 28 say in context. You are again inventing and imposing on these texts. I'm not preaching something else in Jesus' name. I'm exegeting the text in context.

Bye,
Oz

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

That is not what 1 Cor 14:2, 28 say in context. You are again inventing and imposing on these texts. I'm not preaching something else in Jesus' name. I'm exegeting the text in context.

The irony here is that you are the one citing those two singular verses out of context, and yet you claim to get their meaning in spite of the verses around it and thru out that chapter as well as the preceding one in chapter 12 that reproves what you are defending as tongues without interpretation which was gained by apostasy.

You are not defending the faith in Jesus Christ; You have fallen away from that faith in Him, because no believer can receive the Holy Spirit separate from their salvation. That is hardly being born of the Spirit as in born again as in saved by believing in Him.

I can hope in Jesus that others will see that no one is speaking God's gift of tongues of other men's lips to speak unto the people gained by this apostasy. It is always tongues without interpretation when seeking to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation or as others will say, it is another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or that it is a sign of God calling them into the ministry as Joyce Meyers claim for having that phenomenon apart from salvation. I can hope that in spite of the three major representations of this extra phenomenon, others can see that you all do not really know what that is in spite of the Spirit of Truth supposedly being dramatically involved in those 3 types of event, and to suspect that this tongue which never serves as God intended, to speak unto the people, may not be of Him at all.

It isn't. This is just believers wanting to believe that event was of Him and thus never testing the spirits as the apostle John warned them to do. 1 John 4:1-6

Bye,
Oz

Bye Oz.

 

[Sword]

It could also be a technique of avoidance.

Exactly what it is. unfortunatly people will argue there side to the death for various reason. pride. They were taught what they believe by a really nice minister so he cant be wrong.

 

[Deborah_]

So you are saying God wants diversity in the church. Thats why we dont have all the gifts? That is not from God. Cant you see how silly that looks?

'we have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us." (Romans 12:6)
We all naturally fall towards one gift or another, Some have a heart for healing as Pomp said. So did I. Soon as I knew I could I did. I never asked for it. So how did I get it? The bible clearly says believers lay hands on the sick and they will be healed. So I have the gift of healing as does every Christian yes?????

The gift of tonuges is for every believer. Yes?

You evidently have the gift of healing, then. But as Paul says, not every Christian does. I don't. Nor do we all have the gift of tongues. This I have explained.

You said we cant have all the gifts and then you changed you mind and siad you never said that. And when I quoted you saying it you ignored replying to me on it, and instead came up with another question. It looks like to me you are reading your bible to prove people wrong. Thats a zero. Instead of misquoting scripture why dont you look p what I say and ask God is this right? I already done it and know it.
You said jesus gives us what is right and good. To what point are you quoting this to fit what you believe?

So I have shown clearly that the firdt two are available for a fact. So tell me if you need more on it and if you agree or not. that would be a start. Jesus said many times and many things about what is availsable to us. every thing and any thing that is for Gods glory yes? Anything you ask in my name will be give as long as you believe in your heart? Does it say any thing? Does that mean prophecey? Doers in mean we can have tounges? Does it mean we can have a house? To Gods glory yes it does.

When did I change my mind? I think you have simply misunderstood me. I've been going back through the posts and trying to work out exactly what you're referring to but I can't find it.

He did say that He will give us whatever we ask in His name. That doesn't mean that He will always say 'Yes' to our requests. We need to ask with His authority - that is what 'in His name' means. What do we have the authority to ask for? The things in the Lord's prayer, the Holy Spirit, for workers to be called into the harvest field. We don't have the authority to ask for absolutely anything we want. "Believe" isn't the same thing as "want something very much" - we cannot force His hand. He is Lord, not us.

You have two problems.
How can you fully represent Christ wiith out all the gifts? You are called to fully represent Him in all things. Do yyou think you can do that with out the gift of knowledge? Or with out decerment? How can you set the person free from a demon who is playing possem with you. Ever heard of that?

Where in the Bible am I "called to fully represent Christ in all things"?

If God puts me into a situation where I have to deal with a demon, I trust that He will give me the necessary gifts to do so.

So if I come to your church and get some peole healed in front of your etes and then tell someone what going on in there life and assure them there child is well and safe in another country. And then I go on to teach how you all can do this as you give time to build up a personal relationship with God. ( Not going to church or doing church stuff that needs done) I am talking about whorshiping God in the bedroom where no one else can hear you say I love you Father. Do you think that would build up your church or cause diversity? I dont see your two problems there. So your question do we need the gifts to represent Christ amy answer No. My question do we really need all the gifts to FULLY represent Christ Yes we do. See the differnece between my question and yours. Yours limits us. Mine exposes there always more to come. Futher to go. deeper in Him.

Funny how individuals say one minute I am the church and then if it suits all of a sudden we need each other?

I'm sorry but I just don't follow that

So you have the gift of tounges you said. and you have the gifet of healing.
You meet a man who needs a demon cast out. SO you say sorry bud I dont have that gift. Or he needs a word of wisdon for his business. Sorry bud cant help ya. But if you can come back next week theres a guy in our church who has that gift. He might be here next week.
That is no good to anyone and totally missrepresents Chriust and what Hes done.
We are only liited by what we believe.

If God puts me into a situation where I have to deal with a demon, I trust that He will give me the necessary gifts to do so. In any case, I won't know whether I have a gift until I'm in a situation where it's needed.

 

[perrero]

Hmm just a short testimony, but i was around 10 maybe a little older when i got the gift of speaking in tongues, mum was still reading the bible to me at that point haha. 1 time she was reading the Bible to me in bed, and after she finished she laid hands on me, and asked God to give me the gift of tongues, and I started speaking in tongues, in an unknown language it was pretty awesome and i hadn't done it for a while after that though, but 1-2 years ago it came back to me and i have been doing it ever since, i believe I never lost it though, I just wasn't using it and now i am again. So praise God

It would be interesting to know about you other people on these forums, when and where did you 1st get the gift of tongues?

It saddens me to see all the confusion when I read the many posts that seek to unravel the Gifts of the Spirit and more specifically the gift of Tongues. And so, I will attempt to bring some clarity to the discussion, first through experiential means and then through exegetical means.

I was saved and brought into the Kingdom some 45 yrs ago at age 17. As a young fervent new born, I wanted everything God had for me. Since I got saved in a Pentecostal Church, I was formally Catholic, I was immediately aware of the Gifts of the Spirit as they were in operation in my assembly. Many times I witnessed messages in Tongues with Interpretation and also Prophecies. I also witnessed people being baptized in the Holy Spirit and also speaking in Tongues which I thought was the same Tongues that I would hear with Interpretation. (But this is not the case.)

3-6 months into my walk with Jesus, I began to thirst for the Baptism of the H-S which I was told was evidenced by one speaking in Tongues. Needless to say I was a bit apprehensive about the Tongue part but nevertheless I dearly wanted that Baptism. I would pray, by my beside, every night for the Baptism of the H-S as experienced at Pentecost, or in the house of Cornelius (Acts 10) or even in Ephesus (Acts 19). It seemed nothing would happen, YET, deep inside my being it was as if I felt lump in my throat, as if I had eaten and swallowed something large and it had lodged in my oesophagus. It didn’t hurt, it was just there somehow wanting to escape. I would pray and as I would exhaust my prayer list and maybe pray several time the same stuff, I would be at a loss for words and that is when that lump, which was only a sensation not a true lump of food or of phlegm, would seem to appear.

One day, in a discussion, I mentioned this to one my church friends and he wisely told me that this was my answer to prayer. He told me that this was the H-S in me wanting to speak out, but that as a gentleman He would not force me to speak, or put me in a trance to speak or grab hold of my tongue and flap the words out of my mouth. He asked me if I trusted the H-S. I answered yes. He then quoted;

Luke 11:11-13 “If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

In other words, if I asked for the Baptism in the Holy-Spirit, I would not receive a demon or a demonic language. (Serpent or scorpion, Luke 10:19 “I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions”) This gladly alleviated one of my fears. He then said that just as it takes a step of faith to get saved, faith to be baptized in water, literally faith to walk to Christian life, so there is a step of faith to release the words (the lump) within me as the Spirit gives me utterance. That was all it took. That night in church I prayed for the Baptism of the Spirit and finally, trusting Him, I turned off the English and began to speak in an unknown tongue. It was only a few syllables at the time that I repeated maybe 20 times but as I did so I felt the most Glorious presence of the Spirit around me, washing me over in waves of joy, elation, laughter and more. I will never forget that experience. Have I joined an elite? Not in the least, as Paul, I am a chief of sinners. Have I reached a plateau? Heaven forbid for I am humbled every day.

However I know this, every day I pray in tongues I feel strength in my soul, in my spirit, don’t ask me how, I can’t explain it. But when Paul says that he who prays in tongues edifies (builds up, strengthens) himself I understand fully what that means.

*NOW THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND* That prayer language, those tongues that I pray in my PRAYER CLOSET, which can also be in my car as I drive down the road because God and I have a thing going in my car, is NOT the same gift of tongues that is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12. My prayer language is for me alone in my private times with the Lord. The Tongues mentioned in Corinthians is a message meant for the Body of Christ or the Assembly and as such is spoken out loud and as Paul states must be interpreted. We could call this a two step prophecy.

It is totally different from the private prayer language because I have also experience this type of speaking in tongues. This happened 20 years later when, at that point in my life, I was praying for that particular gift. One Sunday as our congregation was worshipping and singing, I felt a strong sense of the Spirit upon me and words bubbling up in my soul wanting to escape and as the worship subsided I knew to release, out loud, what was wanting to get out. And here’s the thing, the language was totally different from what I was accustomed to when praying alone. Immediately after I spoke another member, on the other side of the church, spoke a message in English, which I believe was the interpretation. I confirmed this with him later on. He told me that he had the interpretation even before I spoke but he knew it was just that and interpretation and not a prophecy and so he was waiting for the message in tongues before he released his message.

Now what is the difference between these two kinds of tongues. The only difference is that one is a personal private language that edifies; the other is a public language so that the church may be edified. 1 Cor. 14:5.

That is why when Paul says “I wish that you all spoke in tongues” (1 Cor. 14:5)he is talking about the Private language received through the Baptism of the Holy-Spirit which is what John the Baptist spoke of about Jesus baptizing with Holy Ghost and Fire. This we can all receive.

When Paul says in 1 Cor. (12:29-30):

Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? (These are taken from Ephesians 4:11, which true not all are apostles, prophets and teachers etc.)

Are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (These are listed in 1 Cor. 12:7-10, and it is true that not all speak in (public) tongues, or interpretation or prophecy or healing.) This is at the discretion on the Spirit to those who are available and willing to be used.

Finally, I will mention this. There is a fear out there of tongues and that fear I believe arises from a bad experience people may have had. (Others fear because their denomination does not believe in it or because they have heard weird things or having received wrong teaching on the subject)The Pentecostal movement has done themselves a great disservice by not teaching the differences above. They have allowed well intentioned Christians who have received the Baptism of the Spirit to pray out loud in the congregation in their private personal language causing a cacophony of languages, without interpretation, creating confusion and sometimes aversion to the other congregants or even strangers from outside. I can fully understand people’s aversion to this gift of tongues when they walk into a church that rambles off all these tongues with no rhyme or reason. It is a problem of the flesh, of emotionalism or of lack of teaching on the subject. It is NOT because the Baptism of the Spirit (Book of Acts) does not exist or is not for today. (That would be throwing the baby out with the bath water) It is NOT because the Gifts of the Spirit (Book of 1 Corinthians) ceased in the first century. (Cessationism)

 

[Sword]

Thank you man for a real cool post and simple explaination. Any one with an open heart and mind will recive this. and the nah sayers will lose out, Thats just the way it is .

 

[Josho]

@perrero Thanks for the wonderful post, and thanks for actually answering the question, you explained it in a great way & some good advise there for anyone who has been praying for the gift of tongues. It's fun to spend time with the Lord & pray in tongues. That prayer closet is so important.

As perrero said if you pray to God for the baptism in the Holy Spirit, God's not going to give you anyone else is he?

In my case mum prayed to Jesus for me to be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Personally for me, i just gotta open my mouth, I don't even have to say anything, and tongues flow out of my mouth. Maybe that's a small step of faith some people need to take, just to open your mouth in faith and let it flow. I can't speak for everyone though, God has a unique plan for each individual's life and a journey that's unique for each individual born again Christian with the Holy Spirit.

Enjoy the journey that's unique for you

Again another topic that shouldn't even be a debate. hahahaha.

 

[perrero]

Thank you man for a real cool post and simple explaination. Any one with an open heart and mind will recive this. and the nah sayers will lose out, Thats just the way it is .

Thank you my brother I appreciate it.