The Gospel of Grace:

[brother dave]

About SAVING GRACE
The Church understands that we are all sinners in need of a savior (Rom 5:12-21). We are inheritors of original sin and all its consequences, and by actual sin we distance ourselves from God. We can't save ourselves, but we don't need to: Jesus Christ has paid the price for our sins. The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through Jesus alone (Acts 4:12), since he is the "one mediator between God and man" (1 Tm 2:5-6).
The saving grace won by Jesus is offered as a free gift to us, accessible through repentance, faith, and baptism. We turn away from our sins, we are sorry for them, and we believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel. Repentance shows our willingness to turn from things that keep us from God, and baptism renews us, filling us with the grace necessary to have faith and to live it. This belief is more than just "head knowledge." Even the demons have that (Jas 2:19). It's more than just believing you're saved. Even the Pharisees had that (Jn 5:39). True, saving faith is one lived and exhibited daily: It is "faith working through love" (Gal 5:6, cf. Jas 2:1-26).
Sometimes the Church is accused of teaching "salvation by works," but this is an empty accusation. This idea has been consistently condemned by the Church. Good works are required by God because he requires obedience to his commands (Mt 6:1-21, 1 Cor 3:8, 13-15) and promises to reward us with eternal life if we obey (Mt 25:34-40, Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10, Jas 1:12). But even our obedience is impossible without God's grace; even our good works are God's gift (Rom 5:5, Phil 2:13). This is the real biblical plan of salvation.

just because you have part of the truth dont mean you understand the gospel?
and i was unaware i was on a catholic forum? like they have any authority? we all know of there most famous works and how holy they have shown themselves to be!

by the way neophyte can i see your holiness? please tell us of all your great works?

IF ANY MAN GLORY LET HIM GLORY IN THE LORD!

 

[neophyte]

Poor brother Dave is upset because Jesus formed His One True Church on His Apostles, while the original inventor of Brother dave's church was only a 16th Century' mere man'.
Yes, dave I would be upset with myself also, if I refused the One and Only Church that Jesus left us back in the 1st Century at Pemtecost.
Read Matt. 18:15-18 and tell me that the "church" mentioned in that verse was your church or any other Protestant church, you can't say it was ,because not any Protestant church had been invented yet when that verse was penned.

 

[brother dave]

Poor brother Dave is upset because Jesus formed His One True Church on His Apostles, while the original inventor of Brother dave's church was only a 16th Century' mere man'.
Yes, dave I would be upset with myself also, if I refused the One and Only Church that Jesus left us back in the 1st Century at Pemtecost.
Read Matt. 18:15-18 and tell me that the "church" mentioned in that verse was your church or any other Protestant church, you can't say it was ,because not any Protestant church had been invented yet when that verse was penned.

not sure what your refering too? was not born out of any denomination. i was born again as a child in a little baptist church. i was baptised in the Holy Spirit a few years ago at a rodney howard browne meeting. since then i have belonged completly to my Lord and have been led of His Spirit into the truth of His Word. i do not, nor have i ever been a part of any mans religion! i will not speak against your church ,for it has spoken very clearly about what it is!

i guess since none have any holiness? i think i will just trust in His!
1Co 1:30

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31

That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[Axehead]

Hello - Prentis, brother dave, Axehead, Epsikopos -

This post is not written with 'rebuke' in mind at all. It's just that I came back to read online, and I thought it was going okay, until .... I'm not sure what happened. I haven't looked to see who didn't 'get' who first. All I know is, I'm distressed by the shortness of exchange which seems to precede the first leaping to an incorrect conclusion. I'm sure it wouldn't happen this way, face-to-face, and I really hope we can extend a little more time to one another to take in and consider what is being said, before too a hasty reply.


With trepidation... I wish to offer the following observations, hoping they may be of some use to us all. :huh:



To Prentis first .... when the sabbath was mentioned it was to do with the context of the account in scripture. It was nothing to do with 'we uphold the sabbath'. That's what the Pharisees were aiming for. The sabbath was relevant in the story, because the man was not supposed to be carrying his bed. Remember? That's the only reason the sabbath was mentioned at all by brother dave. Can you see that, now?

I know that you and brother dave have the same understanding of the gospel, and you preach the same thing. I read it in your posts. Maybe the Holy Spirit helps me, but you both express the truth in ways which are quite familiar to me. It is truth nevertheless from both of you - while you are focusing on the topic of the discussion....



brother dave, please bear with my directness here: do you know that the use of capital letters on forums is considered 'shouting', unless it's qualified by a mitigating comment? This may have given a wrong impression of you. There are other ways to communicate emphasis.

One of the limitations of the internet, is, the moment we start 'telling' about what we have 'done', or have 'become' in the Lord, unless it is strictly by way of Spirit-led testimony, we set ourselves up to be accused of 'works' - or, of praising ourselves. Proverbs 27:2 This is why I try not to go there, unless absolutely necessary. Episkopos felt it was necessary. Amen.



Axehead, I think you were going in the right direction with questions, and it's really easy to flow into them if this is how one has been trained to think, but sometimes .... there is more to be gained by going one at a time, or, fewer at a time....



The discussion changed, way back in time on other threads, when Episkopos described his walk in the Lord - partly as a result of being asked whether he 'keeps the law'. With every mention of by His grace or by His power, his claims were labeled as 'works' by an unseen committee of 'others here' who don't seem to understand the basis on which we can claim to fulfil His righteousness by walking in the Spirit.

The word of God needs no defence, but it certainly needs an explanation :mellow: .


What may be missing in these latest communications, is a thorough-going mutual appreciation of the unique blend of gifts and callings which each one has in the Lord, which on our own we have become comfortable ministering in the 3D world. It's not so easy to flip our ministries up on to a screen, though. Coming together online in writing is - I would go so far as to say - its own particular calling for the sake of the world hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ. The more we remember the readers, the more carefully we may express ourselves to make it more difficult to be misunderstood.

It is worth remembering that for some, English is a second or third language. And we speak English and we still can't communicate easily with one another? I hope you see both the funny and the sobering side of this situation, and let's focus on the other person's well-being.



One of the reasons I join a forum, is to learn from others, sometimes just by reading, and, if we ask the right questions in a friendly manner, we can get quite a clear picture of one another without ever meeting - I believe. It is important to be listening to the Spirit, not accusing, and not writing that which gives a false impression. Even if we feel frustrated, there is no benefit to anyone, or the Lord, in blazing it into a post. It just makes every objective onlooker know we are impatient. We may not be angry, but a few exclamation marks can make the reader imagine we are, and we thought we were only making our point a tiny bit clearer by emphasising it 'slightly' for the benefit of the other person.



So... I wonder.... may we endeavour to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace?





Matt 5:9

Hi dragonfly,

I wanted to acknowledge the wisdom in your post and the peaceful spirit that you bring to the forum and also agree that it probably would be much better if I asked fewer questions within one post. As it is, I did not even get one question answered.

Ok, will keep trying to speak plainly and communicate better.

I do agree that we should stick to the topic and seek for clarification if we don't understand what someone is saying.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Thank you, Axehead. I hope to be able to take any advice coming back to me, with as generous an attitude.

(I like the smilies. How did you do that? )

 

[haz]

Hi haz,

If your worship of God in Spirit and truth does not involve your whole body and being in alterations to your physical lifestyle, how do you know you are saved?

Hi dragonfly,

Here's a friendly smile for you, .
BTW, as I have said before, forums can be confronting places and all of us can be quite direct to varying degrees. Epi particularly has been very confronting here pushing his false gospel. I hope you understand my likewise confronting style in dealing with false gospels like his.


Having had discussions with Episkopos before you and I started discussions, I found Epi's doctrine to be about physical proof of perfect obedience to the law as physical evidence/realty of knowing that one is abiding in Christ. You share Epi's false gospel and your subsequent posts confirm this.

Even in this latest post you seek physical proof of salvation as judged by perfect obedience to the law. But this is not walking by faith.

What does scripture say?

Rom 15:13
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:24,25
For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Gal 5:5
For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

1Thess 5:8
But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

1John 3:2,3
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

So we under grace believe God's promise.
Rom 10:9-13
if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [sup] [/sup]For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [sup] [/sup]For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[sup] [/sup]For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.[sup] [/sup]For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The criminal on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' was told by Jesus, 'today you will be with me in paradise'. This criminal had no physical evidence of perfect obedience to the law in his life. BUT, your gospel demands this. This is contrary to our walk by faith. Instead it is establishing righteousness by works of the law.

Rom 6:6 says:
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him

Christians believe our old man has been crucified with Christ.

I know you will deny this next point, but your doctrine of physical proof would also imply we should see nail holes in our hands/feet as proof that we in fact were crucified and therefore abide in Christ.

We walk by faith.
Believe God's promise.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi dragonfly,

Here's a friendly smile for you, .
BTW, as I have said before, forums can be confronting places and all of us can be quite direct to varying degrees. Epi particularly has been very confronting here pushing his false gospel. I hope you understand my likewise confronting style in dealing with false gospels like his.


Having had discussions with Episkopos before you and I started discussions, I found Epi's doctrine to be about physical proof of perfect obedience to the law as physical evidence/realty of knowing that one is abiding in Christ. You share Epi's false gospel and your subsequent posts confirm this.

Even in this latest post you seek physical proof of salvation as judged by perfect obedience to the law. But this is not walking by faith.

What does scripture say?

Rom 15:13
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:24,25
For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Gal 5:5
For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

1Thess 5:8
But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

1John 3:2,3
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

So we under grace believe God's promise.
Rom 10:9-13
if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [sup] [/sup]For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [sup] [/sup]For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[sup] [/sup]For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.[sup] [/sup]For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The criminal on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' was told by Jesus, 'today you will be with me in paradise'. This criminal had no physical evidence of perfect obedience to the law in his life. BUT, your gospel demands this. This is contrary to our walk by faith. Instead it is establishing righteousness by works of the law.

Rom 6:6 says:
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him

Christians believe our old man has been crucified with Christ.

I know you will deny this next point, but your doctrine of physical proof would also imply we should see nail holes in our hands/feet as proof that we in fact were crucified and therefore abide in Christ.

We walk by faith.
Believe God's promise.

Hi HAz...you are sharing from a biblical wisdom....just like Nicodemus...

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

 

[Axehead]

Hi dragonfly,

Here's a friendly smile for you, .
BTW, as I have said before, forums can be confronting places and all of us can be quite direct to varying degrees. Epi particularly has been very confronting here pushing his false gospel. I hope you understand my likewise confronting style in dealing with false gospels like his.


Having had discussions with Episkopos before you and I started discussions, I found Epi's doctrine to be about physical proof of perfect obedience to the law as physical evidence/realty of knowing that one is abiding in Christ. You share Epi's false gospel and your subsequent posts confirm this.

Even in this latest post you seek physical proof of salvation as judged by perfect obedience to the law. But this is not walking by faith.

What does scripture say?

Rom 15:13
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:24,25
For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Gal 5:5
For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

1Thess 5:8
But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

1John 3:2,3
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

So we under grace believe God's promise.
Rom 10:9-13
if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [sup] [/sup]For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [sup] [/sup]For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[sup] [/sup]For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.[sup] [/sup]For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The criminal on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' was told by Jesus, 'today you will be with me in paradise'. This criminal had no physical evidence of perfect obedience to the law in his life. BUT, your gospel demands this. This is contrary to our walk by faith. Instead it is establishing righteousness by works of the law.

Rom 6:6 says:
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him

Christians believe our old man has been crucified with Christ.

I know you will deny this next point, but your doctrine of physical proof would also imply we should see nail holes in our hands/feet as proof that we in fact were crucified and therefore abide in Christ.

We walk by faith.
Believe God's promise.

Hey there Haz,

Hope you are well today.

Speaking of physical proof, what do you think the Lord had in mind in these verses when He spoke about fruit?


John15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Thanks,
Axehead

 

[haz]

You are missing what I am saying and what the bible is saying because you are limiting your oprions to your own understanding and your own abiblity. You say..".I can't do this"... so you write it off. But all the ways of God require a miraculous faculty called grace to perform them. I am against TRYING to be holy...you can never be. (You twist what I say to fit one of your carnal positions.) But the provision of Christ is in a new creation already created in holiness. Notice...

Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This is what you are resisting. The new man is already in the presence of God. We already have the purity of God if we are in the new man. What we need to run the race for is for maturity IN that new life.

All those verses that men write off so easily or claim without any understanding...like...I am seated with Christ...or It is Christ living in me....etc.. are used as a smokescreen to defend a life lived as any other man. Don't try reading the bible in your own understanding...look at what is being said then seek the Lord.

This idea that once you begin you have already arrived stops you and many others seeing the progressive nature of the salvation of God. Going from faith to faith and glory to glory.

Why does Paul exhort people that are already believers to put on the new man???? Why does Paul exhort the Roman believers to walk in the Spirit??? If these were a natural acquisition that never could be altered than why the need for the thousands of exhortations in the bible?

So your position stops you from getting what you think you already have. Do you see the genius of the enemy yet???

Hi Epi,

:huh: Errr...I'm not twisting your words. You have clearly accused believers here of being in unbelief, claiming they follow fantasies by believing on Jesus without having proof in lifetsyle by perfect obedience to the law. You even claimed your gospel makes Christ harder to attain and thus condemnation.

You continuously allege believers here who reject your doctrine are therefore living some supposedly selfish/worldly lifestyle because of grace. This is your own fantasy.
When someone comes to Christ then God is working in their life to build them up. Who are you to judge their lifestyle. It is God who justifies.

BTW, Christians have put on the new man in believing on Jesus.


You say the "enemy" (Devil) is a genius.
But I see that scripture says he is crafty and a deceiver.
2Cor 11:2-4
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. [sup] [/sup]For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted you may well put up with it!

Sadly your gospel of mixing grace with works of the law is just such a deception as described above. Grace and works of the law cannot be mixed (Rom 11:6). It is being lukewarm (Rev 3:15,16).

Hey there Haz,

Hope you are well today.

Speaking of physical proof, what do you think the Lord had in mind in these verses when He spoke about fruit?


John15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Thanks,
Axehead

Hi Axehead,

Yes, I'm well enough, considering the issues from bad posture, etc. I hope you don't suffer from the same from long sedintary periods at work and forums etc. Beware of dropping your head forward for too long over a computer screen. The head is heavy and the shoulder/back muscles get strained holding such weight.

I see in the gospel you share with Epi and Co. that perfect obedience to the law in this physical life is needed as proof that one is truly abiding in Christ. Epi has stated that the condemnation of death under his gospel is immaterial as (his understanding of) the "truth" is what really matters.

This works of the law (or what you call 'fulfilling the law') results in sin (Gal 2:18, Rom 7:7) and death is the penalty, just as Epi's gospel preaches.

Rom 6:21
What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
Rom 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

Your works of the law gospel are 'dead works' and is what Heb 6:1 says that Christians have repented of when they turned to Christ.

Your gospel requires physical proof of perfect obedience to the law. Without this physical proof, death is the penalty.

What of someone who confesses Jesus on their death bed (like the criminal on the cross)? They have no physical proof of perfect obedience to the law. What does your doctrine claim about such persons?



As for a Christian's fruits?
It's Christ in us, the hope and glory (Col 1:27).

1Cor 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Phil 1:11
being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

 

[brother dave]

Act 13:10


And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
for some who seem so determined to represent that they are defenders of Gods word? and again none have answered any of may basic questions? yet they desire that others follow along with there twisted logic? unwilling to lay any foundation ,that i can see? they build upon there own opinion! God confirms the Gospel i preach! i doubt that all there doubting produces much other than a puffing up of there own egos!

the thought just hit me? i would hate to have to explain there nonsense to a new believer! man! could you imagine going into the jails and prisons with that doctrine?

have you noticed there favorite statement? how complex there understanding of the scriptures are? and one must just follow along to really understand? no sorry its a simple gospel and you guys have about run your deception to its end!

I JUST GOT IT! how blessed are we on this forum to know the only few people on the planet who are really saved? thank you Lord for these few who have found your salvation! i hope they write it all down for us in a book! like joseph smith and other great prophets ! by the way
Lord sorry for all those poor young men and women that called upon your name for there salvation! had i known of this great group and the truth of how complicated salvation really is? i would have just sat on my behind and done nothing but listen to these who understand the true way?

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead,

Yes, I'm well enough, considering the issues from bad posture, etc. I hope you don't suffer from the same from long sedintary periods at work and forums etc. Beware of dropping your head forward for too long over a computer screen. The head is heavy and the shoulder/back muscles get strained holding such weight.

Well, I am sorry about your pain and hope you feel better soon or at least get a more ergonmic chair.

I see in the gospel you share with Epi and Co. that perfect obedience to the law in this physical life is needed as proof that one is truly abiding in Christ. Epi has stated that the condemnation of death under his gospel is immaterial as (his understanding of) the "truth" is what really matters.

I don't think I ever said "perfect obedience to the law in this physical life is needed as proof that one is truly abiding in Christ". Can you show me where I said this? I am trying to see what your understanding is concerning the fruit that Jesus talked about. I have shown you what I think this fruit is, below. Do you think He was talking about something we could perceive by our physical or even spiritual senses when He said, "Ye shall know them by their fruits"? I never said anything about the physical since we have spiritual senses, too. That is why the Holy Spirit gives us discernment. But when you look at the fruit below you will notice that they do have physical manifestation. One can view love in someone, patience, kindness, goodness, honesty, etc. So, without making up things that I did not say, can you just tell me what your understanding is of "Ye will know them by their fruits"?

Now, I don't believe one has to "work" for their salvation, but I do believe that once we are "in Christ" that we will walk in good works (grow in grace) that God has already ordained we walk in. We will walk in love towards our neighbor and before the Lord and bear the fruit of the Spirit which is Christ in us, right? We decrease and He increases (but we have to decrease).

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Your gospel requires physical proof of perfect obedience to the law. Without this physical proof, death is the penalty.

Again, I never said that. Fruit is always spiritual but often has a physical manifestation. (Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks). Many are fooled by religious facades so that is why we need spiritual discernment.

What of someone who confesses Jesus on their death bed (like the criminal on the cross)? They have no physical proof of perfect obedience to the law. What does your doctrine claim about such persons?

Having faith towards God and believing on the name of the Son of God, will save someone on their death bed, but I don't recommend someone waiting till then. But we are talking about those walking with the Lord each day. How do we walk out the Gospel each day?

What is your understanding of the last part of this verse?
2Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Phil 1:11
being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Now, we're talking. The fruits of righteousness that we exhibit are by Jesus Christ. It's not about us frantically going about doing good deeds. Fruit is not "good deeds". Good deeds will result from fruit, but it is not the fruit, as we can see in the man in Matthew 7 who Jesus rejected for all His good deeds but Jesus did not know Him. (He did not have true fruit from abiding in Jesus).

Below is what I see as BAD FRUIT.

And this is what I understand comes from Abiding in Jesus Christ. The scripture that you used in Philippians, "the fruit of righteousness which is BY JESUS CHRIST".

I look forward to your comments to see if we are beginning to come to some agreement. Hopefully, a little.

Axehead

 

[brother dave]

WHY ? DO YOU ALL CONSERN YOURSELVES SO MUCH WITH OTHERS SIN? AND WORK TO PLACE DOUBT ON OTHERS SALVATION? THE PHARISEES AND SCRIBES HAD THIS SAME MOTIVE OF HEART! YOU LIKE THEM REFUSE TO ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND WOULD BLOCK THE WAY FOR OTHERS! I AM FOREVER RIGHTEOUS! AND FOREVER FORGIVEN! IF I SIN TOMORROW IT DOES NOT CHANGE WHO GOD HAS MADE ME!

THAT IS THE GOSPEL! GET OVER YOURSELVES!

FOR SEE I HAVE BEEN FREED FROM THE POWER OF SIN! WHICH IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. AND HAVE ENTERED INTO A ETERNAL AGREEMENT WITH GOD, THROUGH A NEW AND LIVING WAY! ON MY WORSE DAY I AM MORE ACCEPTED THAN YOU HYPOCRITES ON YOUR BEST!

THE HARLOT ON THE STREET WHO CALLS FOR HIS MERCY! IS ACCEPTED AND YOU BUNCH OF PHONY CHRISTIANS ARE REJECTED BEFORE MY FATHER!

ITS CALLED THE MINISTRY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS! MEANING IT GIVES RIGHTEOUSNESS TO THOSE WHO DO NOT DESERVE IT, BUT RECEIVE IT BY FAITH!

 

[haz]

WHY ? DO YOU ALL CONSERN YOURSELVES SO MUCH WITH OTHERS SIN? AND WORK TO PLACE DOUBT ON OTHERS SALVATION? THE PHARISEES AND SCRIBES HAD THIS SAME MOTIVE OF HEART! YOU LIKE THEM REFUSE TO ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND WOULD BLOCK THE WAY FOR OTHERS! I AM FOREVER RIGHTEOUS! AND FOREVER FORGIVEN! IF I SIN TOMORROW IT DOES NOT CHANGE WHO GOD HAS MADE ME!

THAT IS THE GOSPEL! GET OVER YOURSELVES!

FOR SEE I HAVE BEEN FREED FROM THE POWER OF SIN! WHICH IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. AND HAVE ENTERED INTO A ETERNAL AGREEMENT WITH GOD, THROUGH A NEW AND LIVING WAY! ON MY WORSE DAY I AM MORE ACCEPTED THAN YOU HYPOCRITES ON YOUR BEST!

THE HARLOT ON THE STREET WHO CALLS FOR HIS MERCY! IS ACCEPTED AND YOU BUNCH OF PHONY CHRISTIANS ARE REJECTED BEFORE MY FATHER!

ITS CALLED THE MINISTRY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS! MEANING IT GIVES RIGHTEOUSNESS TO THOSE WHO DO NOT DESERVE IT, BUT RECEIVE IT BY FAITH!

Hi brother dave,

AMEN ! Good answer.

Well, I am sorry about your pain and hope you feel better soon or at least get a more ergonmic chair.



I don't think I ever said "perfect obedience to the law in this physical life is needed as proof that one is truly abiding in Christ". Can you show me where I said this? I am trying to see what your understanding is concerning the fruit that Jesus talked about. I have shown you what I think this fruit is, below. Do you think He was talking about something we could perceive by our physical or even spiritual senses when He said, "Ye shall know them by their fruits"? I never said anything about the physical since we have spiritual senses, too. That is why the Holy Spirit gives us discernment. But when you look at the fruit below you will notice that they do have physical manifestation. One can view love in someone, patience, kindness, goodness, honesty, etc. So, without making up things that I did not say, can you just tell me what your understanding is of "Ye will know them by their fruits"?

Now, I don't believe one has to "work" for their salvation, but I do believe that once we are "in Christ" that we will walk in good works (grow in grace) that God has already ordained we walk in. We will walk in love towards our neighbor and before the Lord and bear the fruit of the Spirit which is Christ in us, right? We decrease and He increases (but we have to decrease).

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Again, I never said that. Fruit is always spiritual but often has a physical manifestation. (Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks). Many are fooled by religious facades so that is why we need spiritual discernment.



Having faith towards God and believing on the name of the Son of God, will save someone on their death bed, but I don't recommend someone waiting till then. But we are talking about those walking with the Lord each day. How do we walk out the Gospel each day?

What is your understanding of the last part of this verse?
2Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.



Now, we're talking. The fruits of righteousness that we exhibit are by Jesus Christ. It's not about us frantically going about doing good deeds. Fruit is not "good deeds". Good deeds will result from fruit, but it is not the fruit, as we can see in the man in Matthew 7 who Jesus rejected for all His good deeds but Jesus did not know Him. (He did not have true fruit from abiding in Jesus).

Below is what I see as BAD FRUIT.

And this is what I understand comes from Abiding in Jesus Christ. The scripture that you used in Philippians, "the fruit of righteousness which is BY JESUS CHRIST".

I look forward to your comments to see if we are beginning to come to some agreement. Hopefully, a little.

Axehead

Hi Axehead,

My apologies if I misunderstood you allegiance to Epi as acceptance of all of his doctrine, including perfect obedience to the law as proof of abiding in Christ.

Eeek !!! how did you add all those pictures, etc. I just noticed it now.


Anyway, just a quick partial answer to your post as I'm short of time. Will get back later.

You said: "That is why the Holy Spirit gives us discernment. But when you look at the fruit below you will notice that they do have physical manifestation. One can view love in someone, patience, kindness, goodness, honesty, etc."

In reality we sometimes see such qualities even amongst those who are not Christians too.

Consider the difference between Christians and non-believers, both of whom show physical manifestation of love, etc.

1John 5:1-5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. [sup] [/sup]By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. [sup] [/sup]For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world, our faith. [sup] [/sup]Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

And what is His commandment?

1John 3:22,23
[sup] [/sup]And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. [sup] [/sup]And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

I'll get back with to answer your other question later.

 

[brother dave]

they seek fruit from a tree they have never known? unable to understand the fruit because they have not been planted by the Lord! they have never seen the fruit grow from there own tree! so they can not understand the meaning of the scriptures! they want a load full of apples but have never planted the seed of righteousness! they are condemned in there own hearts so they seek to condemn others!

 

[Axehead]

no sorry its a simple gospel and you guys have about run your deception to its end!

Dave,

Yes, it is a simple gospel, but it requires our death and then a daily cross, doesn't it?

Do you think Jesus was being too hard on the Rich Young Ruler and should have let Him follow Him, anyway? Does Jesus want us to make the Gospel call easier than He made it?

Do you think maybe that Jesus was trying to save the Rich Young Ruler from disappointment when he found out later on what the cost of discipleship entailed?

Why does Jesus tell us to count the cost before deciding to follow Him if there is no cost? Do you tell people what the cost will be to follow Jesus? Do you believe there is a cost?

If Jesus did water down the requirements for the Rich Young Ruler to follow Him, wouldn't He also then have to water down the cost of discipleship to walk with Him?

Do you see examples today of a watered down Gospel and a watered down call to Discipleship?

All the best,
Axehead

 

[brother dave]

by the way how long do you bible prophets think it takes to grow fruit on a fruit tree? or a grape vine? say if i brought a harlot off the street to your church of the great prophets? how long until she has been saved in your doctrine?

Dave,

Yes, it is a simple gospel, but it requires our death and then a daily cross, doesn't it?

Do you think Jesus was being too hard on the Rich Young Ruler and should have let Him follow Him, anyway?

Do you think maybe that Jesus was trying to save the Rich Young Ruler from disappointment when he found out later on the cost of discipleship?
Why does Jesus tell us to count the cost before deciding to follow Him? Do you tell people what the cost will be to follow Jesus? You do believe there is a cost, don't you?

If Jesus did water down the requirements for the Rich Young Ruler to follow Him, wouldn't He also then have to water down the cost of discipleship to walk with Him?

All the best,
Axehead

When you got saved, did you come to Jesus with ALL your heart or just part of it? I would guess that you came to Jesus with all your heart. Do you tell people to come to Jesus with all their heart?

the requirement was to show this man who claimed he kept the law that he was a transgressor of the first commandment! so all that follow must give up all they have? not the point at all! He met a self-righteous man , who thought much like you and others here, that they can keep the law? he raised the bar of the law to the place of his guilt! so he might see his own transgression! i hate to be the one to tell you this but God often accepts people in the place they are! he lays not these heavy burdens of you must do this and that! we all start at simple faith! and why are you so determined to make something so simple so complicated? i did not surrender all when i first called on Him! but He brought me into the place of complete surrender! you got it wrong! little brother, you are missing God and what He is asking us to do!

 

[Axehead]

by the way how long do you bible prophets think it takes to grow fruit on a fruit tree? or a grape vine? say if i brought a harlot off the street to your church of the great prophets? how long until she has been saved in your doctrine?

I have ministered on the streets and in prisons and in my experience true conversions show fruit immediately.

Axehead

 

[brother dave]

I have ministered on the streets and in prisons and in my experience true conversions show fruit immediately.

Axehead

so how long until they reach this place of perfection? and if they dont? was they really coverted? did the Holy Spirit really make them a new creation? or did was your work of faith in vain?

 

[Axehead]

i did not surrender all when i first called on Him! but He brought me into the place of complete surrender! you got it wrong! little brother, you are missing God and what He is asking us to do!

Dave,

This is what I am getting at. He does take us from faith to faith and glory to glory. Yes, He gradually gives us more and more light so that we can surrender more and more, yielding our will to His will. You are right about the Rich Young Ruler, but you have to admit there are some pathetic Evangelistic methods out there and one thing Jesus demonstrates is that you can't decide to follow Him because you think you are "so good". We agree on that.

Axehead

so how long until they reach this place of perfection? and if they dont? was they really coverted? did the Holy Spirit really make them a new creation? or did was your work of faith in vain?

Actually, the Holy Spirit then begins to teach us about our new life in Christ and how to walk in the Spirit. When we are walking in the Spirit (walking in love and preferring others) we are pleasing the Lord. I think you are somehow thinking that myself and others are promoting sinless perfection and we are not.

Axehead

 

[brother dave]

Dave,

This is what I am getting at. He does take us from faith to faith and glory to glory. Yes, He gradually gives us more and more light so that we can surrender more and more, yielding our will to His will. You are right about the Rich Young Ruler, but you have to admit there are some pathetic Evangelistic methods out there and one thing Jesus demonstrates is that you can't decide to follow Him because you think you are "so good". We agree on that.

Axehead

i agree with what you just stated! but the answer to the problem is not to point back to the law! nor worry myself about that bunch! the thing to do is grow in grace and knowledge and in POWER! and preach the gospel
Paul preached! the ministery of righteousness! and those who believe WILL BE CHANGED BY THE WORD! not this looking back at law!