The Gospel of Grace:

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi,

Thanks, but it was already mentioned earlier that you guys follow the same church but you haven't met, being in different countries.

I realise you have been "taught by the same Master" (as you put it), but what I'm trying to determine is what you doctrine actually is and thereby determine whether your Master is actually God or men's doctrines.

Considering that we are taught by the same Master and have never met or "gone to the same church" is not a cause for doubt but one for faith. I have found not a few around the world that we have an exact affinity to...from the Spirit. It is according to the condition of the heart. Denominations and factions come from a man examined, brain induced, look at WHY things are the way they are.

A cynical person will think that a person only believes what he us programmed to believe...rather than be free in Christ to know Him apart from men. Of course there are many who are indoctrinated by men...entire denominations are such. But then we are getting into the wheat and the tares parable to explain this.

Peace

Hey there Haz,

I am neither in Canada or the UK. I am in Texas. Do you really not understand what dragonfly and Episkopos have been trying to say? I gave you a hint. "I am not a member of any human religious institution."

The doctrine that I abide in is the doctrine of Christ.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (2Jn 1:9)


What doctrine do you abide in?


Axehead

I am also outside the man made doctrine mills! The Lord called me out of the system 20 some years ago in order to break bread from house to house. The pastor at that church we were then "attending" also, after breaking bread with us, realized the call to get out. He then got a job as a carpenter.

So this movement to come out of Babylon is on a worldwide scale. The word church means "called out ones". It remains for those who profess faith in Christ to understand what they are being called out of!!

Maranatha and praises to God!

 

[Axehead]

Hi Episkopos,

"Doctrine Mills", is an appropriate description. My first 3 years in the Lord (beginning in 1977) I was not in the system as they were spent on ships and in Israel. When I came back to the States I spent a couple of years in the religious system until the Lord called me out. I too have been breaking bread house to house and "holding fast to the Head" in the "simplicity of Christ".

Praise the Lord! He alone is worthy.

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

"Doctrine Mills", is an appropriate description. My first 3 years in the Lord (beginning in 1977) I was not in the system as they were spent on ships and in Israel. When I came back to the States I spent a couple of years in the religious system until the Lord called me out. I too have been breaking bread house to house and "holding fast to the Head" in the "simplicity of Christ".

Praise the Lord! He alone is worthy.

Axehead

Amen and amen!!! While doctrine is very important it is secondary to life in the Spirit. Our doctrine must come out of this life. The purpose of our teaching should always be to bring people into this life in Christ. Eternal life is a type of life we can live in here and now.

Be encouraged and strengthened through His power

Maranatha

John

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

BTW, no I don't get your hints. Remember I already had discussions with your church colleague Epi with his ambiguous claims on sin, not abiding in Christ, making Christ harder to attain, condemnation, etc and his boasts of being one of the very few with the truth in spite of his not abiding in Christ.

Perhaps you can explain your church doctrine plainly.

I don't think we can be any plainer. Our doctrine is in scripture, where yours is too, if you are cleaving to the doctrine of Christ.

In quoting Ek, it would be helpful (to me) if you could post the link into this conversation, of the thread in which he replied, as that seems to have a bearing on your line of questioning. Thanks.

I would also like to assume that you've read the first five books of the Bible, and are vaguely familiar with the chronology of the OT's narrative, and that if you aren't, you're willing to do the necessary Bible study to follow the explanations which (at least) I will give? Is that fair?

Lastly, please read at least the first 16 verses of Ephesians 4, to see how I understand the structure which operates within the body of Christ. This is worked out in local assemblies of believers, or, between groups of smaller gatherings in homes, and, increasingly, through the meeting of Christians in other associations such as here on the internet, or wherever fellowship in Christ is found.

The instructions which Paul gave Timothy on how to determine who is qualified for a leadership role, the descriptions of spiritual gifts and other exhortations in the NT, all have a part to play in what Axehead, Episkopos and I understand as 'church'. I would expect the sheep to push forward the brother(s) in whom it is clear to them, God has vested His authority, their having shown themselves to be servants of the flock, already. If I were to meet face to face with true brethren in the Lord, my preferred form of gathering looks like this - Psa 22:22; Heb 2:12; Mark 14:22 - 25, 1 Cor 14:26 - 33 - and the rest of the time, Eph 5:15 - 21; and Col 3:16, 17; and Gal 5:16, all predicated upon the understanding of John 3 and John 15. This scratches the surface. The whole of the Bible is relevant to understanding what God wants of us as sons/friends from whom He is hiding nothing, and, the presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer is essential, if we are to dwell in Him and He in us, that John 17:3 become our testimony.


Is this making any sense?


Another comment I might make, is that God blends His callings and gifts uniquely within each one of us. If we have Christ in us, then by His Spirit we can live out His life, including the exercise of spiritual gifts as God gives the unction at the time we need any gift to function. This makes it harder to pigeonhole anyone except in quite general terms. For instance, as far as I can tell Axehead's gifting, he is a teacher rather than a preacher, whereas I am more of an interpreter of the word for the purpose of preaching and evangelism. Evangelism causes us to face people outside the church, whereas every other calling is for the equipping of the saints and the edification of the body - till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ - Eph 4:13.

I use the KJV for the way it brings the word into the present tense, but I also use TheWord.net and other translations like Young's Literal and Greek interlinears, to get more understanding. Hebrew has each letter packed with meaning, which can add depth to names and words.

When I asked you to compare the Old and New Covenants, I was hoping you'd notice there is a 'law' in the New Covenant, too, as well as that the NT mentions other laws - the law of sin and death, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of faith, the law of works, and the law of Moses. If you've not considered the other laws (apart from Moses') then it's a worthy study, because the law of faith is what holds the universe together. There are other dynamics at work, such as the creative power of the word of God when it is spoken, as Paul noted its power to bring hearing in Rom 10:17; but that's not its only place, because it is fundamental to the efficacy of prayer, preaching and prophecy - when mixed with faith.

The Lord does not promise to grant our requests if we pray outside or against His will - except when His patience is exhausted. Rom 1:28. There is no point in believing less than scripture proclaims. But we know that we are reaching beyond what is naturally possible for us to apprehend of God, the more we study and find how little we actually 'know'. That's why we need His Spirit, and, we must love truth.

Isaiah 55:8 - 13 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth,
and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater
so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing,
and all the trees of the field shall clap [their] hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier
shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign [that] shall not be cut off.

PS

If there are things you didn't understand in my long post in this thread, #28, please bring them back here. Also, please confirm that you now do understand that Ah, Ek and I are not members of a denomination or a group which has a name, or which meets in a way other than described in scripture, or which subscribes to doctrines of men.

You've mentioned several times that 'law or grace' is problematic to you, suggesting Ek believes both. Well, the fact is, so does God. The whole of salvation is based on His laws, one of which is the law which, if we agree to be bound by it, releases us from penalty for sin. 'Grace', by scriptural definition, may not be what you think it is. Please check that out?

Hi neophyte,

There is only one 'church' in New Covenant Israel, and that's the church to which believers in Jesus Christ are joined by faith.

Especially in posts# 25, 26, 27,31 you mentioned church, the question is which church...'

While you may like to disregard a large selection of allusions to members of the body of Jesus Christ in the writings of NT authors, it won't change the facts, and God is not partial. He is no respecter of persons or the wisdom of this world.

Psalm 127:1
Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it:

except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh in vain.

 

[haz]

Hi haz,



I don't think we can be any plainer. Our doctrine is in scripture, where yours is too, if you are cleaving to the doctrine of Christ.

In quoting Ek, it would be helpful (to me) if you could post the link into this conversation, of the thread in which he replied, as that seems to have a bearing on your line of questioning. Thanks.

I would also like to assume that you've read the first five books of the Bible, and are vaguely familiar with the chronology of the OT's narrative, and that if you aren't, you're willing to do the necessary Bible study to follow the explanations which (at least) I will give? Is that fair?

Lastly, please read at least the first 16 verses of Ephesians 4, to see how I understand the structure which operates within the body of Christ. This is worked out in local assemblies of believers, or, between groups of smaller gatherings in homes, and, increasingly, through the meeting of Christians in other associations such as here on the internet, or wherever fellowship in Christ is found.

The instructions which Paul gave Timothy on how to determine who is qualified for a leadership role, the descriptions of spiritual gifts and other exhortations in the NT, all have a part to play in what Axehead, Episkopos and I understand as 'church'. I would expect the sheep to push forward the brother(s) in whom it is clear to them, God has vested His authority, their having shown themselves to be servants of the flock, already. If I were to meet face to face with true brethren in the Lord, my preferred form of gathering looks like this - Psa 22:22; Heb 2:12; Mark 14:22 - 25, 1 Cor 14:26 - 33 - and the rest of the time, Eph 5:15 - 21; and Col 3:16, 17; and Gal 5:16, all predicated upon the understanding of John 3 and John 15. This scratches the surface. The whole of the Bible is relevant to understanding what God wants of us as sons/friends from whom He is hiding nothing, and, the presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer is essential, if we are to dwell in Him and He in us, that John 17:3 become our testimony.


Is this making any sense?


Another comment I might make, is that God blends His callings and gifts uniquely within each one of us. If we have Christ in us, then by His Spirit we can live out His life, including the exercise of spiritual gifts as God gives the unction at the time we need any gift to function. This makes it harder to pigeonhole anyone except in quite general terms. For instance, as far as I can tell Axehead's gifting, he is a teacher rather than a preacher, whereas I am more of an interpreter of the word for the purpose of preaching and evangelism. Evangelism causes us to face people outside the church, whereas every other calling is for the equipping of the saints and the edification of the body - till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ - Eph 4:13.

I use the KJV for the way it brings the word into the present tense, but I also use TheWord.net and other translations like Young's Literal and Greek interlinears, to get more understanding. Hebrew has each letter packed with meaning, which can add depth to names and words.

When I asked you to compare the Old and New Covenants, I was hoping you'd notice there is a 'law' in the New Covenant, too, as well as that the NT mentions other laws - the law of sin and death, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of faith, the law of works, and the law of Moses. If you've not considered the other laws (apart from Moses') then it's a worthy study, because the law of faith is what holds the universe together. There are other dynamics at work, such as the creative power of the word of God when it is spoken, as Paul noted its power to bring hearing in Rom 10:17; but that's not its only place, because it is fundamental to the efficacy of prayer, preaching and prophecy - when mixed with faith.

The Lord does not promise to grant our requests if we pray outside or against His will - except when His patience is exhausted. Rom 1:28. There is no point in believing less than scripture proclaims. But we know that we are reaching beyond what is naturally possible for us to apprehend of God, the more we study and find how little we actually 'know'. That's why we need His Spirit, and, we must love truth.

Isaiah 55:8 - 13 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth,
and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater
so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing,
and all the trees of the field shall clap [their] hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier
shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign [that] shall not be cut off.

PS

If there are things you didn't understand in my long post in this thread, #28, please bring them back here. Also, please confirm that you now do understand that Ah, Ek and I are not members of a denomination or a group which has a name, or which meets in a way other than described in scripture, or which subscribes to doctrines of men.

You've mentioned several times that 'law or grace' is problematic to you, suggesting Ek believes both. Well, the fact is, so does God. The whole of salvation is based on His laws, one of which is the law which, if we agree to be bound by it, releases us from penalty for sin. 'Grace', by scriptural definition, may not be what you think it is. Please check that out?

Hi dragonfly,

You may be quoting scripture but your meanings behind them is what I am trying to decipher. So far it has not been a clear explaination of what you guys believe. EK especially has offered much ambiguity with his allegations that others here believe in fables if they believe in the gospel of grace. Also his wrongful claims of be one of the very few with true understanding of scriptures whilst he himself does not abide in Christ.

BTW, unfortunately I do not have the time to address too many questions due to my circumstances. I initially searched back through posts to quote EK's claims a couple of weeks ago. Now I have even less time available to do so.

There are churches (for want of a better word) that, like yours, do not claim to being a denomination nor to being a group that has a name. Perhaps you, Axehead and EK fellowship in that church I speak of. It is clear from each of your comments that you all fellowship at some gathering which does not have a name but shares a common doctrine. Presumably its a church named after the location where you live, yet has the same overseeing co-ordinating body worldwide. Is that correct?

 

[Watchwithme]

The Gospel of Grace: --- All scriptures from the NKJV
*
After studying the Scriptures for over 60 years and writing many articles contradicting the writings of those that place their faith in their religions and religious practices, I have concluded that most will not believe what I write here. However, I am going to write what I believe to be the true Gospel of God’s grace based on the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
*
The true Gospel of Grace is that God has now concluded ALL men are hopelessly lost and are continually sinful in the flesh. Since that is true, based on the law, then God is totally fair in offering salvation based on the work of His Son, Jesus Christ, on the cross. The blood of His Son, Jesus Christ, covers ALL the sins of anyone that will place ALL their belief, faith, trust, confidence, and hope in the work of God on the cross. These are betting their eternal life on the work of God and are made children of God in Christ.
*
It makes me sad to understand that most men/women do not really do this. They seem to place their salvation on religious activities and their works. They believe in the “social/moral gospel” taught by religions. In reality they place their trust in what they do, not what God has done. They cannot deny themselves and follow Jesus. They will not relinquish control of their salvation to God and, instead, place their bets on what they “do for God“, not on what God has done for them.
*
The following Scriptures show us that it is the work of God that saves.
*
2 Cor 1:20-22
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
*
Rom 8:35-39
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written:
*
"For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
*
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
*
2 Tim 1:8-12
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.
*
1 Peter 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
*
1 Cor 15:56-58
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
*
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
*
All those that place ALL their belief, faith, trust, confidence, and hope in the work of God on the cross are kept by the power of God, not by their own power. Many do not believe this and I, personally, believe them to be hopelessly lost.

Nice, I agree fully.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

There are churches (for want of a better word) that, like yours, do not claim to being a denomination nor to being a group that has a name. Perhaps you, Axehead and EK fellowship in that church I speak of. It is clear from each of your comments that you all fellowship at some gathering which does not have a name but shares a common doctrine. Presumably its a church named after the location where you live, yet has the same overseeing co-ordinating body worldwide. Is that correct?

Okay, it's this one -

Ephesians 2: last verses '... fellowcitizens with the saints, ... the household of God; ... built upon the foundation of the apostles and
prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple
in the Lord: in whom ye [we] also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God
by Jesus Christ... 9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should
shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God...'

Revelation 3:'..These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth,
and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door,
and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.....

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:
and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem,
which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

I could go on quoting scripture, but if you don't accept what I've already shared, it's difficult to know what the point would be. Clearly, you have your own copy of the New Testament. Have you never read it with church governance in mind? Have you never been amongst saints who can bring the word of God as the Spirit is bringing it to them (1 Corinthians 14:26) for the edification of all present, with no other oversight than God Himself?

I don't mean that there would not be a brother bringing order with a very light touch, such as drawing attention to the beginning and ending of the time appointed to seek and wait on the Lord, but he would not be announcing every song/hymn and then bringing the only exposition of scripture. He would be an equal within his calling/gifting/obedience (by which any leadership authority from God could recognised in him by those present). I also don't mean that there would be no musician and no words for hymns and songs which meet the biblical criteria of doctrine. There would be both opportunity to pray and praise, and to ask for prayer, and to be prayed for. And there could be breaking of bread, using scripture as the 'liturgy'.

Is it that you've never 'met' Christians before, who base all their 'doctrine' on whole Bible verses. Is this why you're looking for a different kind of doctrinal statement - one that that has a more theological ring to it - something which sounds like a paraphrase of scripture?

Please take time to think about the verses I've brought in all my posts, and raise the problems which they bring up for you. Or, if you have other verses which seem to militate against what I've shared, let's talk about how they fit the bigger picture.

Without knowing what exactly is eating you up, it's difficult to give a more precise answer. I feel that you have a construct in your own mind, against which you are asking your questions - which is fine. I'm honestly sharing with you the construct which is in my mind!

 

[Episkopos]

Hi dragonfly,

You may be quoting scripture but your meanings behind them is what I am trying to decipher. So far it has not been a clear explaination of what you guys believe. EK especially has offered much ambiguity with his allegations that others here believe in fables if they believe in the gospel of grace. Also his wrongful claims of be one of the very few with true understanding of scriptures whilst he himself does not abide in Christ.

BTW, unfortunately I do not have the time to address too many questions due to my circumstances. I initially searched back through posts to quote EK's claims a couple of weeks ago. Now I have even less time available to do so.

There are churches (for want of a better word) that, like yours, do not claim to being a denomination nor to being a group that has a name. Perhaps you, Axehead and EK fellowship in that church I speak of. It is clear from each of your comments that you all fellowship at some gathering which does not have a name but shares a common doctrine. Presumably its a church named after the location where you live, yet has the same overseeing co-ordinating body worldwide. Is that correct?

Haz...you have a fascinating persistence.... Nobody is hiding anything here. We have zero affiliation with any other churches...only through the Spirit do we seek to fellowship with others. Any resemblance that you perceive must be attributed to having a common Lord (although He is not common). Can you accept that?

 

[RichardBurger]

Nice, I agree fully.

Then you open yourself to those on this forum that just refuse to hear the riches we have in Christ.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Richard,

Then you open yourself to those on this forum that just refuse to hear the riches we have in Christ.

That will depend on whether Watchwithme agrees with you on the other things you believe.

For instance, at the top of page 6 of the Galatians 5 thread, you gave me this astonishing reply:

dragonfly said
The good works which He created beforehand for us to 'do' are walked out in the Holy Spirit, not in the flesh.

Now, please tell me how you read Matthew 7:12 - 21?


many thanks.

Richard replied
I don't because what was said is under the Law of Moses. I am not under the Law of Moses. I am dead to the law.

Your gospel seems to stop the moment you believed in Christ's work on the cross. You appear to say you do none of the works He had commanded His disciples to teach new disciples to follow, even though there must have been day when you yourself were a new disciple. (It is okay not to sing your own praises, of course.)

All I want you to understand, is that those who have received Christ's death as their own (in advance of natural death due to the aging process which began at the Fall), do find the law of sin and death overcome by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. It doesn't stop the flesh aging, and it doesn't prevent a believer from sinning, but, because a genuine desire to forsake sin (true repentance) has been established in the heart before God, His Holy Spirit is now raising the believer to newness of life in Christ. There is power to resist temptation, and to co-operate with God effectively - from faith to faith - from glory to glory. The Spirit of grace now enables you to embrace Paul's instructions on how the flesh is mortified (Romans 8:13), as there's no resurrection without a preceding death. John 12:24

Galatians 2:'... that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God...'

 

[haz]

Haz...you have a fascinating persistence.... Nobody is hiding anything here. We have zero affiliation with any other churches...only through the Spirit do we seek to fellowship with others. Any resemblance that you perceive must be attributed to having a common Lord (although He is not common). Can you accept that?

Hi Epi,

Unfortunately you only have yourself to blame Epi... <_<
Your ambiguous claims (without scripture), along with your boasts of being one of the very few with the truth whilst claiming the rest of us here follow fables when believing on Jesus, set the seed of doubting you and your supporting friends. Having asked questions to clarify exactly what your saying, the responses were often veiled by a reluctance to give specifics.

If you truly want to show your not trying to hide anything here then stop the ambiguiity and your reluctance to respond openly and plainly. The written word can be easily misunderstood, especially on forums. But your persistence in making it even more difficult is revealing.

I guess you 3 could settle the matter by providing the name of the gatherings you say you fellowship at, if they are so different as you claim. There's nothing to hide, as you claim. Correct?

If it's any help I'll even start. I fellowship at whatever local gathering I choose to. Sometimes Baptist, AOG, or even home Bible study group, etc. Christ is my pastor.
I myself have met others on forums with the same understanding as I, and what church we might fellowship at has never been a issue to hide.
And anyone opposing my understanding, when they asked what church I fellowship at, I gave them the same open honest answer I gave you above. After all, what is there to hide?

What about you and your friends here?

 

[RichardBurger]

Hi Richard,



That will depend on whether Watchwithme agrees with you on the other things you believe.

For instance, at the top of page 6 of the Galatians 5 thread, you gave me this astonishing reply:



Your gospel seems to stop the moment you believed in Christ's work on the cross. You appear to say you do none of the works He had commanded His disciples to teach new disciples to follow, even though there must have been day when you yourself were a new disciple. (It is okay not to sing your own praises, of course.)

NOTE: Jesus never taught that the Jews should forsake the Law of Moses. You can not find one thing He said that would lead anyone to forsake the Law of Moses and still you keep coming back saying we are to follow Jesus' and the 12's commandments. In this age of God's grace the only thing that condemns a person is to refuse to hear the Gospel of Grace. That Jesus' shed blood on the cross is the only thing that can reconcile a person to God. I BET I HAVE SAID THIS A HUNDRED TIMES AND YOU WILL NOT HEAR IT.

All I want you to understand, is that those who have received Christ's death as their own (in advance of natural death due to the aging process which began at the Fall), do find the law of sin and death overcome by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. It doesn't stop the flesh aging, and it doesn't prevent a believer from sinning, but, because a genuine desire to forsake sin (true repentance) has been established in the heart before God, His Holy Spirit is now raising the believer to newness of life in Christ. There is power to resist temptation, and to co-operate with God effectively - from faith to faith - from glory to glory. The Spirit of grace now enables you to embrace Paul's instructions on how the flesh is mortified (Romans 8:13), as there's no resurrection without a preceding death. John 12:24

Galatians 2:'... that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God...'

The scriptures say that it is our faith that overcomes the world, not our works. Faith is not a work, it is having belief, trust, and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross.

So now you are saying it is a genuine desire to forsake sin, not that you can accomplish it. Seems to me that I have been saying that all along but you do not want to hear it from me.

 

[haz]

Hi haz,



Okay, it's this one -

Ephesians 2: last verses '... fellowcitizens with the saints, ... the household of God; ... built upon the foundation of the apostles and
prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple
in the Lord: in whom ye [we] also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God
by Jesus Christ... 9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should
shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God...'

Revelation 3:'..These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth,
and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door,
and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.....

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:
and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem,
which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

I could go on quoting scripture, but if you don't accept what I've already shared, it's difficult to know what the point would be. Clearly, you have your own copy of the New Testament. Have you never read it with church governance in mind? Have you never been amongst saints who can bring the word of God as the Spirit is bringing it to them (1 Corinthians 14:26) for the edification of all present, with no other oversight than God Himself?

I don't mean that there would not be a brother bringing order with a very light touch, such as drawing attention to the beginning and ending of the time appointed to seek and wait on the Lord, but he would not be announcing every song/hymn and then bringing the only exposition of scripture. He would be an equal within his calling/gifting/obedience (by which any leadership authority from God could recognised in him by those present). I also don't mean that there would be no musician and no words for hymns and songs which meet the biblical criteria of doctrine. There would be both opportunity to pray and praise, and to ask for prayer, and to be prayed for. And there could be breaking of bread, using scripture as the 'liturgy'.

Is it that you've never 'met' Christians before, who base all their 'doctrine' on whole Bible verses. Is this why you're looking for a different kind of doctrinal statement - one that that has a more theological ring to it - something which sounds like a paraphrase of scripture?

Please take time to think about the verses I've brought in all my posts, and raise the problems which they bring up for you. Or, if you have other verses which seem to militate against what I've shared, let's talk about how they fit the bigger picture.

Without knowing what exactly is eating you up, it's difficult to give a more precise answer. I feel that you have a construct in your own mind, against which you are asking your questions - which is fine. I'm honestly sharing with you the construct which is in my mind!

Hi dragonfly,

I just noticed this reply of yours. Please consider my response (post #51) to EK in reply to you.

BTW, no issue with the scriptural references about the church.

I'm sure you have recognized by now that my issue is with EK's doctrine (which you say you support) claiming that others here are following fables by believing on Jesus. In addition EK's claim that he sins and therefore is not abiding in Christ but, in spite of this, he is one of the very few with true understanding of scripture. Also his claim that his doctrine makes Christ harder to attain, etc.

You and Axehead support his doctrine and yet there seems to be a reluctance to explain plainly how this doctrine is supported. EK seems to be mixing grace and works of the law, which you also alluded support for, but failed to expound on.

My efforts at asking what fellowship you guys gather at has merely been to try to determine more easily what doctrine you guys seem to be reluctant to reveal clearly. But the continual reluctance by you guys to reveal even this only added to the impression that your holding back.

If it wasn't for EK's deliberate ambiguity etc at the start, this issue would not have gathererd momentum.
It's your choice whether to continue the reluctance to explain plainly and openly where you stand regarding the law of sin and death and what gathering you fellowship at.
I suggest it's better to be more open though.

Thanks,

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi,

Unfortunately you only have yourself to blame Epi... <_<
Your ambiguous claims (without scripture), along with your boasts of being one of the very few with the truth whilst claiming the rest of us here follow fables when believing on Jesus, set the seed of doubting you and your supporting friends. Having asked questions to clarify exactly what your saying, the responses were often veiled by a reluctance to give specifics.

If you truly want to show your not trying to hide anything here then stop the ambiguiity and your reluctance to respond openly and plainly. The written word can be easily misunderstood, especially on forums. But your persistence in making it even more difficult is revealing.

I guess you 3 could settle the matter by providing the name of the gatherings you say you fellowship at, if they are so different as you claim. There's nothing to hide, as you claim. Correct?

If it's any help I'll even start. I fellowship at whatever local gathering I choose to. Sometimes Baptist, AOG, or even home Bible study group, etc. Christ is my pastor.
I myself have met others on forums with the same understanding as I, and what church we might fellowship at has never been a issue to hide.
And anyone opposing my understanding, when they asked what church I fellowship at, I gave them the same open honest answer I gave you above. After all, what is there to hide?

What about you and your friends here?

We are a no name fellowship of disciples that are simply gathered in the name of Jesus Christ. What else is there to tell? I have no connection whatsoever save the Spirit with either Dragonfly or Axehead. I probably met them at the same time as you have..on this very forum.

 

[haz]

We are a no name fellowship of disciples that are simply gathered in the name of Jesus Christ. What else is there to tell? I have no connection whatsoever save the Spirit with either Dragonfly or Axehead. I probably met them at the same time as you have..on this very forum.

Hi Epi,

Thanks for your reply. I accept your not going to come out on the name of the group/church you fellowship with.

BTW, can you at least answer whether where you fellowship has any form of common link in physical leadership and/or co-ordinating body of persons with the groups that dragonfly and Axehead fellowship at? I'm not talking about Christ as pastor and being together in the Spirit. I'm refering to physical persons heading up the same no name group.

 

[Axehead]

We are a no name fellowship of disciples that are simply gathered in the name of Jesus Christ. What else is there to tell? I have no connection whatsoever save the Spirit with either Dragonfly or Axehead. I probably met them at the same time as you have..on this very forum.

We are a no-name fellowship of Believers, too Epi and Haz. I probably met Epi and Dragonfly around the same time as you Haz, maybe a bit later. I don't think anyone in my fellowship knows anyone in Epi's or dragonfly's. In fact I know it because no one in my fellowship is on ChristianityBoard that I know of. My friends don't even like the Christian Internet Forums.

Does that satisfy you? Do you find that surprising that we can have unity without ever meeting each other, or having any physical connections? Any unity that we have is not based on uniformity of beliefs of doctrine. Unity in the Spirit is not Uniformity, haz. We don't all have to be part of the same group of Believers. We also did not conduct "spiritual interviews" of one another by going down a list of "doctrinal" beliefs to see if each other were palatable (worthy) to fellowship with.

Axehead

 

[haz]

We are a no-name fellowship of Believers, too Epi and Haz. I probably met Epi and Dragonfly around the same time as you Haz, maybe a bit later. I don't think anyone in my fellowship knows anyone in Epi's or dragonfly's. In fact I know it because no one in my fellowship is on ChristianityBoard that I know of. My friends don't even like the Christian Internet Forums.

Does that satisfy you? Do you find that surprising that we can have unity without ever meeting each other, or having any physical connections? Any unity that we have is not based on uniformity of beliefs of doctrine. Unity in the Spirit is not Uniformity, haz. We don't all have to be part of the same group of Believers. We also did not conduct "spiritual interviews" of one another by going down a list of "doctrinal" beliefs to see if each other were palatable (worthy) to fellowship with.

Axehead

Hi Axehead,

Thanks for your reply.

I too have met various other believers with similar understandings of scripture to myself on various forums. I know from personal experience that unity in the Spirit and thus understanding happens in spite of never meeting the other person. It is no surprise, as you suggested.

But Epi's claims, such as claiming others here are into fables when we believe on Jesus, and that his doctrine makes Christ harder to attain, etc,etc is at odds with your claim that you guys don't "conduct "spiritual interviews" of one another by going down a list of "doctrinal" beliefs to see if each other were palatable (worthy) to fellowship with". Epi does this with many here on this forum so why did he not do this with you and dragonfly?

Personally I also agree with non-denominationalism, however I can't help but wonder if your in a no-name group that is headed by a board of directors set up after it's founders like Watchman Nee or his buddy Witness Lee. They also insist on descriptions of groups based on their locality just as Epi claimed he does.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi,

Thanks for your reply. I accept your not going to come out on the name of the group/church you fellowship with.

BTW, can you at least answer whether where you fellowship has any form of common link in physical leadership and/or co-ordinating body of persons with the groups that dragonfly and Axehead fellowship at? I'm not talking about Christ as pastor and being together in the Spirit. I'm refering to physical persons heading up the same no name group.

We have no physical ties whatsoever. We are not affiliated with any group..certainly not doctrinally. We fellowship with like hearted and minded believers here in Montreal. There are home groups and fellowships all over the world just like ours. These are patterned on life in the Spirit. We have more in common with the Chinese underground church than any western style denomination.



I am sure that we have a lot in common with whatever group Axehead and Dragonfly belong to...as I have said....there is a lot in common with churches that spring up organically by the Spirit. Man made churches must of course pattern off of a man made doctrine. I think you may be overly influenced by this sort of reasoning.

Personally I also agree with non-denominationalism, however I can't help but wonder if your in a no-name group that is headed by a board of directors set up after it's founders like Watchman Nee or his buddy Witness Lee. They also insist on descriptions of groups based on their locality just as Epi claimed he does.

I know of this group..the Witness Lee group....we have one in this city. These guys are a denomination that make a doctrine out of naming themselves after the city...and incorporating the name!!! So they are just doing what all the other denoms are doing.

We are dependent only on Christ...no affiliation or denomination.

The pattern you are missing is to be led by the Spirit. Christ is truly the Head of His church. Try looking there.

Here is a typical pattern for a "no-name" church. A few people begin praying and studying the word together. Others hear about this and begin to desire to seek the Lord as well. Some people move into the neighbourhood so as to be closer to the fellowship. Then God visits His church to empower His people to walk in Him.

If you know of a man made denomination that can control God and His visits...let me know!

 

[dragonfly]

Faith is not a work, it is having belief, trust, and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross.

Hi Richard,

Paul said, 'faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God'. (Romans 10:17) He said it in the context of preaching the gospel to Israelites, while acknowledging that Gentiles are also eligible, some of whom had believed by then.


So, after you believed in the resurrected Christ for your salvation, have you continued listening to God?

What (new) faith has been created in you by His fresh word to you, since you first believed? Have you been obedient to it?


Really, this is what some of us are asking. Not, are you saved? Not, what did you need to believe to be saved? But, now being saved why are you adamantly defending a policy of no works in the name of Jesus, when this is what we are all saved to do?

For Axehead: link to Falling from grace: http://www.christian...ing-from-grace/


Hi haz,

At your request, referring to post #51:

Hi Epi,

Unfortunately you only have yourself to blame Epi... <_<
Your ambiguous claims (without scripture), along with your boasts of being one of the very few with the truth whilst claiming the rest of us here follow fables when believing on Jesus, set the seed of doubting you and your supporting friends. Having asked questions to clarify exactly what your saying, the responses were often veiled by a reluctance to give specifics.

I would like to go back to the beginning, but, In view of the discussion following post #51, between you, Axehead and Ek, I see that the matter of labeling has still not been dealt with to your satisfaction, so let me ask you a question, and depending on your answer, I'll proceed with my analysis.

Here is the question. Do you believe that you have received, and walk in, the Holy Spirit?

Please answer yes or no. Either you have and you do, or, you know you haven't and you don't.

The only other possibility is something more Old Testament in style, of being moved upon by the Spirit at times, but not a knowledge of His indwelling.

The reason this has a bearing, is that if you haven't received the indwelling Holy Spirit, then we can't expect you to understand our fellowship in Him, and you needn't expect yourself to understand it either.

(Whatever your answer, your 'doctrine' may be totally biblical. But that's not my question.)


Having re-read the early part of Ek's thread which started your line of questioning, I see that you are adamant that works/law are incompatible with grace (my paraphrase). I did also notice you were very quick to suggest to Ek that he is a liar and doesn't know the Lord, because of his honest answer to you about 'the law'. Now, it is an assumption on my part that because you stated law and grace cannot be mixed, maybe you do understand something about grace. But, you seemed to take Ek's comments rather personally, instead of asking him more about the reasons he'd made them, and you seem to have assumed he was including everyone except himself in them.

But that is not what he said. And I didn't read them the way you did. All I saw was his generalisation that there is a doctrine out and about which purports to be scriptural, but which is dangerously void of a true grasp of what the Lord requires of us. He was no way talking about 'law', and I understood that completely.


I will wait for your response.


Blessings, brothers.

 

[haz]

Hi EK and dragonfly,

It seems we disagree in understanding and yet each claim we have recieved, and walk in, the Holy Spirit.

Dragonfly, I'll provide the context for you of when I referred to EK as a liar. It was posed in terms based on his claims to "know him, and keepth not his commandments" (1John 2:4) which scripture EK himself referred to. EK admitted he failed to keep the commandments perfectly, failing God's grace. EK's message was to try to make others here doubt God's promise, claiming that his doctrine makes Christ harder to attain. Referring EK's reference to 1John 2:4 back to him, in the light of his attacks against others here, was both appropriate and another attempt to draw out more information out of the ambiguity he hides behind.

As he started and continued the discussion with his ambiguous and unscriptural charges against many on this forum that they follow fables when believing on Jesus, it was after questioning him as best as possible I determined he was trying to subtly deceive others with works of the law.

EK, dragonfly and Axehead. Whilst I adhere to non-denominationalism and am led by the Spirit and having Christ as my pastor, I see our different understandings shows that we each follow different gospels.