The Gospel of Grace:

[Watchwithme]

i dont think self righteousness is a problem of the faith crowd? but the works crowd! SELF- righteousness!!!
and paul didnt warn us of becoming self-righteous in faith???? that makes no sense!!! and one who has ceased from his own works has ceased from the PRIDE of those works!

Brother Dave is what saves us our righteous faith?

 

[brother dave]

i assume you are asking me what is the point or focus of our faith? and i hope in my few post here that i have made crystal clear in whom i believe! so not sure what else could possibly be your question ? so let me be clear we are accounted or MADE righteous in, by or through our faith in Christ Jesus alone! and have NO WORKS of our own to add to His Finished Work.

 

[Watchwithme]

i assume you are asking me what is the point or focus of our faith? and i hope in my few post here that i have made crystal clear in whom i believe! so not sure what else could possibly be your question ? so let me be clear we are accounted or MADE righteous in, by or through our faith in Christ Jesus alone! and have NO WORKS of our own to add to His Finished Work.

Phew, well obviously we are brothers in Christ then AWESOME!. So what's all this "righteous faith" stuff?. What's the point and where does it relate to the Gospel of Grace? I'm not arguing with you, I just want to know where you are coming from.

 

[brother dave]

well again i wonder? are you playing games with words? again a common understanding of Pauls epistles would make one understand the term the righteousness of faith, that is a common phrase of those in the grace community! and just off the top of my head, a term used in the bible itself? why it should be such a stumbling block to anyone who claims to embrace the grace of God, is very very odd and leaves me in doubt of your sincerity on these issue? or at least your ability to use these common terms in ways that allow for a free-flowing conversation in deeper issues of grace? i could be wrong and often i am. the best test of one who has truly entered into His grace is their ability to teach and explain it to others? how it works in their life etc.. be glad to hear your testimony?

 

[haz]

Hi haz,

Thank you for the new information. I hadn't looked in any other thread for your conversations with Ek.

I know you think you've answered my question in post # 63, but it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Additionally, I still think you are bringing theological interpretations to your questions which are unjustified, although to be sure of that, I'd have to ask you more questions.

Right now it's time for me to hit the sack so this reply is short, but it expresses more of my confusion.

Your other points to me are noted. However, I'd still be grateful for one quote from Ek where he says that 'believing in Jesus = fables' - with that being the only possible meaning to be extracted from his words. I know I've seen 'fables' mentioned, but I would read that as an alternative to believing in Jesus (personally), since Jesus Christ is the Truth.

The most glaring of a misunderstanding between you, is (to me), especially in the light of this comment,



that when (in Falling from grace) you asked Ek if he keeps 'the law', and he said 'no', it didn't occur to you that he might not believe 'the law' is what is 'kept' by those who are in the New Covenant?

When you then justified re-stating 'the law' to 'the 10 commandments' - a slightly different question, still - and he doesn't keep them either, why would you think he is trying to 'deceive others with works of the law'?

That makes no sense!

Hi dragonfly,

I'm still here. Like I said before I don't have as much time for the forum now. Plus I've been trying to find that thread from which I can quote EK, to answer your question. Very time consuming as theres a lot of posts to cover. Eventually we'll settle this.

Thanks,

 

[Watchwithme]

well again i wonder? are you playing games with words? again a common understanding of Pauls epistles would make one understand the term the righteousness of faith, that is a common phrase of those in the grace community! and just off the top of my head, a term used in the bible itself? why it should be such a stumbling block to anyone who claims to embrace the grace of God, is very very odd and leaves me in doubt of your sincerity on these issue? or at least your ability to use these common terms in ways that allow for a free-flowing conversation in deeper issues of grace? i could be wrong and often i am. the best test of one who has truly entered into His grace is their ability to teach and explain it to others? how it works in their life etc.. be glad to hear your testimony?

You've taken what appears to be a very defensive and some what incredulous approach to my question ( a straight forward one that you have read a lot into, none of which is there), Instead of answering mu question you have huffed and puffed and fluffed then asked me four more question then requested I give you my testimony. I think I'd prefer to leave it there bro if you don't mind. I'm not an analyst. God Bless you.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

Hi dragonfly,

I'm still here. Like I said before I don't have as much time for the forum now. Plus I've been trying to find that thread from which I can quote EK, to answer your question. Very time consuming as theres a lot of posts to cover. Eventually we'll settle this.

Thanks,

So, does your reply at post # 85 mean you haven't yet read my posts to you at # 73 and #75 - which were written as one whole? Please do so.

I had used the Advanced search to find a conversation between you and Episkopos. (Advanced search opens by the little star beside the search pane.... The system struggled with all the quote tags, so I posted it bit by bit. During that process, Richard posted at #74.)




Hey bro (Watchwithme),

You've taken what appears to be a very defensive and some what incredulous approach to my question ( a straight forward one that you have read a lot into, none of which is there), Instead of answering mu question you have huffed and puffed and fluffed then asked me four more question then requested I give you my testimony. I think I'd prefer to leave it there bro if you don't mind. I'm not an analyst. God Bless you.

Maybe you should go back and read the way you questioned brother dave initially - which he has borne with Christian fortitude. All he's done is return a fraction of the attitude which came through from you initially, although perhaps you weren't aware of that.


brother dave,

Did you notice where Watchwithme hales from? We may be suffering from 'nations divided by a common language'!!

 

[RichardBurger]

Hello Richard,

I agree that God found a way to redeem us from sin - to pay our ransom to free us from sin - to buy us back from Satan's strongholds. (That's what 'redeem' means.)

Richard, everyone who comes to God has been committing 'sins of the flesh', but the New Testament clearly shows that through the death of Jesus Christ we have the power to cease from sin, and, we are expected to strive to do so - then to live our lives in the power of the cross and of the Holy Spirit, not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. Gal 5:16.

Romans 8
William Tyndale translates these verses -
8 So then, they that are given to the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not given to the flesh, but to the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
If there be any man that hath not the spirit of Christ, the same is none of His. 10 If Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin: but the Spirit is life for righteousness' sake.

(KJV) 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Hebrews 9:26b '... but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Jesus put away our sins, not us. We differ in how we live in the flesh and/or how we live in the Spirit.

To me, a person is living in the flesh when they are trying to make their flesh righteous by what they do.

10 If Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin: but the Spirit is life for righteousness'

To me, a person is living in the Spirit when they are placing their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the work of God on the cross. According to the scriptures those that worship God must worship in the spirit, not the flesh. The flesh profits nothing according to the scriptures.

Lusts of the flesh! Do you understand that the Pharisees were fulfilling the lust of the flesh when they thought they were sinless and yet plotted the murder of Jesus. And yet they could not see that they were doing it. Why!?? Because they rationalized that what they did was not a sin and, I believe, the religious, today, do the same things. To me that is living in the flesh and fulfilling the desires of the flesh.

There are thousands of words posted on this forum that try and tell me that a person has been given the power to stop sinning in the flesh --- and yet if they are honest will reluctantly say that they still sin. I say reluctantly because admitting it would defeat what they have said and show that they do not really have that power in their flesh.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Richard,

Good post.

admitting it would defeat what they have said and show that they do not really have that power in their flesh.

We are not claiming to have the power in our flesh of ourselves. We are claiming that by acknowledging the death of Jesus to our flesh - which is a spiritual work of the Holy Spirit - we now have power over our whole bodies to cause our flesh to walk in the life of the Spirit. Gal 5:16

Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

That is - to borrow Tyndale's phrase - who do not walk given to the flesh, but given to the Spirit. In other words, our bodies serve God's purposes.


Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and [therefore leading to] death.


Our natural bodies have natural needs which God has ordained to be fulfilled, as well as controlled (where necessary) by decency, order, natural love and affection, and the power of the Holy Spirit - because 'the sin' did make them go crazy. God has stated His Maker's Instructions for many of these, especially around relationships with others. The Holy Spirit helps us to we walk in the righteousness of God as we abide by these.


1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous...'

Unless a sin has involved another person in hurt or harm - which some would say is always the case, because while we are sinning we are not attending to something else we could or should be doing as the Lord would lead us - then it is a matter between the person who sinned, and God.

Public sins, and sins of public people whose authority and reputation is compromised by their having fallen, do need to be addressed publicly for the sake of those whom they lead/led. This is also (in the Church) for the sake of the reputation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

For the individual before God, there is no substitute for honestly bringing the trip-up issue to Him again and again, until we have it fully sussed and conquered. Yeah there might be some sweat and pain, but not more than He sweated and hurt for us to receive deliverance.

 

[RichardBurger]

Hi Richard,

Good post.



We are not claiming to have the power in our flesh of ourselves. We are claiming that by acknowledging the death of Jesus to our flesh - which is a spiritual work of the Holy Spirit - we now have power over our whole bodies to cause our flesh to walk in the life of the Spirit. Gal 5:16

Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

That is - to borrow Tyndale's phrase - who do not walk given to the flesh, but given to the Spirit. In other words, our bodies serve God's purposes.


Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and [therefore leading to] death.


Our natural bodies have natural needs which God has ordained to be fulfilled, as well as controlled (where necessary) by decency, order, natural love and affection, and the power of the Holy Spirit - because 'the sin' did make them go crazy. God has stated His Maker's Instructions for many of these, especially around relationships with others. The Holy Spirit helps us to we walk in the righteousness of God as we abide by these.


1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous...'

Unless a sin has involved another person in hurt or harm - which some would say is always the case, because while we are sinning we are not attending to something else we could or should be doing as the Lord would lead us - then it is a matter between the person who sinned, and God.

Public sins, and sins of public people whose authority and reputation is compromised by their having fallen, do need to be addressed publicly for the sake of those whom they lead/led. This is also (in the Church) for the sake of the reputation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

For the individual before God, there is no substitute for honestly bringing the trip-up issue to Him again and again, until we have it fully sussed and conquered. Yeah there might be some sweat and pain, but not more than He sweated and hurt for us to receive deliverance.

I think I have explained what I see as the the difference between walking in the flesh and walking in the Spirit. The flesh still sins but the Spirit has been born of God and does not sin only because that Spirit has God's imputed righteousness. That person is accounted as righteous before God because of his/her faith in the promise of God that salvation is by faith. It is written, what God has called clean let no man call un-clean.

When a person starts claiming that they do not sin any longer in the flesh because they are living in the Spirit what do you see them saying?

When a person says they are walking in the Spirit what does that mean to you?

Some on this forum put forward the idea that since I believe salvation saves sinners and I say I still sin in the flesh, I must be sinning all over the place and looking for an excuss to do so. That is their problem but it leads to their being self-righteous.

It seems to me that the religious want a class system where they can claim to be closer to God than others by what they think they do for God. That is being self-righteous. True Christianity is not about what we do for God but what God has done for us. This fact is what sets true Christianity as different from all other religions.

 

[brightmorningstar]

I agree with Richard Burger's OP.
The only thing I would add to it is, where there is that faith and trust, people will do good works.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Richard,

When a person starts claiming that they do not sin any longer in the flesh because they are living in the Spirit what do you see them saying?

I think the 'any longer' in your sentence changes its meaning significantly.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. Paradoxically, with this attitude, he may well stand.

When a person says they are walking in the Spirit what does that mean to you?

If it's true, then they are not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. (That is, the lusts which lead to sin, when indulged.) It is not a sin to be tempted. In fact the airways are full of voices and temptations; but we have to keep trying to discern God's voice through all that flotsam and jettsom, and obey Him.

 

[Watchwithme]

Hi haz,(Advanced search opens by the little star beside the search pane.... The system struggled with all the quote tags, so I posted it bit by bit. During that process, Richard posted at #74.)




Hey bro (Watchwithme),



Maybe you should go back and read the way you questioned brother dave initially - which he has borne with Christian fortitude. All he's done is return a fraction of the attitude which came through from you initially, although perhaps you weren't aware of that.


brother dave,

Did you notice where Watchwithme hales from? We may be suffering from 'nations divided by a common language'!!

I suppose I was a bit like a bull at a gate (sorry "he who is without sin" Brother Dave but I gave you a chance to exercise immense Christian fortitude (rolls eyes)! Nice one dragon Fly.

I agree with Richard Burger's OP.
The only thing I would add to it is, where there is that faith and trust, people will do good works.

A lot of people do immense good works who have no faith in God whatsoever and the believers works will be tested with a clearly very stringent test that will burn them as stubble if they don't measure up. We are lucky to get into heaven by the skin of our teeth every last one of us. The works faith debate is tedious beyond measure.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Watchwithme,

now I'm being mocked for being in New Zealand? HAH! Nice one dragon Fly.

No mockery at all. Us Brits have the same trouble with North American 'English' all the time. 'nations divided by a common language.' :huh:

 

[Watchwithme]

Hi Watchwithme,



No mockery at all. Us Brits have the same trouble with North American 'English' all the time. 'nations divided by a common language.' :huh:

Oh I see what you mean, I shall take that back then.

 

[dragonfly]

Oh I see what you mean, I shall take that back then.

I love 'communication' - when it works! Thanks, bro.

 

[Watchwithme]

I love 'communication' - when it works! Thanks, bro.

You're welcome. I have learnt to promptly admit when I'm wrong is the best way to go. I'm good at , I have to do it a lot! h34r:

PS: I was born in Belfast Northern Ireland.

 

[brother dave]

Hi haz,




So, does your reply at post # 85 mean you haven't yet read my posts to you at # 73 and #75 - which were written as one whole? Please do so.

I had used the Advanced search to find a conversation between you and Episkopos. (Advanced search opens by the little star beside the search pane.... The system struggled with all the quote tags, so I posted it bit by bit. During that process, Richard posted at #74.)




Hey bro (Watchwithme),



Maybe you should go back and read the way you questioned brother dave initially - which he has borne with Christian fortitude. All he's done is return a fraction of the attitude which came through from you initially, although perhaps you weren't aware of that.


brother dave,

Did you notice where Watchwithme hales from? We may be suffering from 'nations divided by a common language'!!

well? could be now that i see his native tongue?? but still smells a little fishy and been in the grace circles for several years now and have never been challenged on the term RIGHTOUSNESS OF FAITH! it is and has been for many years a common term used to descibe the gospel doctrine .used with such frequency by Paul in his letters that i can not help but question the motives for bringing such an issue up? like going to KFC and asking someone what is this chicken stuff??? and who would dare fry something called chicken??? NO i think thats too odd . but when you call out the devil he always sends out the weak one first !to gain info.

 

[Watchwithme]

well? could be now that i see his native tongue?? but still smells a little fishy and been in the grace circles for several years now and have never been challenged on the term RIGHTOUSNESS OF FAITH! it is and has been for many years a common term used to descibe the gospel doctrine .used with such frequency by Paul in his letters that i can not help but question the motives for bringing such an issue up? like going to KFC and asking someone what is this chicken stuff??? and who would dare fry something called chicken??? NO i think thats too odd . but when you call out the devil he always sends out the weak one first !to gain info.

Hey brother Dave and Dragon Fly, get a room if you want to talk about me, don't do it in a public forum its the height of rudeness and just not Christian. You've been in the "grace circle" (what's that by the way? It it KFC or McDonalds?) for while now, you should know that!!! There's something fishy about you too, you may be the same person...

 

[brother dave]

The doctrine of grace and righteousness by faith alone. are unshakable and are the foundation of even our very purpose for being in this age. for He was he

Hey brother Dave and Dragon Fly, get a room if you want to talk about me, don't do it in a public forum its the height of rudeness and just not Christian. You've been in the "grace circle" (what's that by the way? It it KFC or McDonalds?) for while now, you should know that!!! There's something fishy about you too, you may be the same person...

please understand the book is the same for those of us who love truth and are taught by the Holy Spirit of Truth! and not trying to play nice christian word games . and you may not understand this but when God gives ot His Righteousness to a man he also gives a boldness that does not play at church but warns every man with the truth. for the Righteous are as bold as lions! and sorry for my spelling errors and must admit my written skills are not what they should be.