Hi haz,
Are your deductions based on the very short exchange you had with Ek in that one thread?
Are your deductions based on the very short exchange you had with Ek in that one thread?
The Gospel of Grace:
- Thread starter RichardBurger
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Hi haz,
I'd still like an answer to the question in my previous post. Thank you for your answer to my previous question, too.
This makes no sense to me. If there's any way you could elaborate how you came to that conclusion, I'd be grateful for the breakdown.
Many thanks.
I'd still like an answer to the question in my previous post. Thank you for your answer to my previous question, too.
This makes no sense to me. If there's any way you could elaborate how you came to that conclusion, I'd be grateful for the breakdown.
Many thanks.
Hi haz,
I'd still like an answer to the question in my previous post. Thank you for your answer to my previous question, too.
This makes no sense to me. If there's any way you could elaborate how you came to that conclusion, I'd be grateful for the breakdown.
Many thanks.
Hi EK and dragonfly,
My deductions on EK's doctrine were based on several different topics over a number of threads.
EK would make claims that any here who believed on Jesus were following fables and did not truly understand grace like he did. He claimed that perfect obedience to the commandments determined if one was abiding in Christ and that he himself was not perfectly keeping the commandments (having failed God's grace).
Dragonfly, I noted how you offered to support EK several times in spite of the contradictions. I recall you admonished me for my confronting EK, but conveniently ignored EK's same confrontational style towards others here. If you recall I queried why you held such a clearly prejudiced stance.
I can only suggest that if you have the time to try to follow each thread in every topic we debated over the past few weeks then that may help you to understand what has led to our differences so far. I would hope however that you do so without the same prejudice that you clearly displayed when you admonished me for confronting EK because of his confronting others on this forum.
Finally can you explain how you add works of the law into your gospel. From what I have seen so far, you, Axehead and EK seem to follow something similar to the Adventist doctrine, whilst claiming to be non-denominational.
Hi haz,
Thank you for the new information. I hadn't looked in any other thread for your conversations with Ek.
I know you think you've answered my question in post # 63, but it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Additionally, I still think you are bringing theological interpretations to your questions which are unjustified, although to be sure of that, I'd have to ask you more questions.
Right now it's time for me to hit the sack so this reply is short, but it expresses more of my confusion.
Your other points to me are noted. However, I'd still be grateful for one quote from Ek where he says that 'believing in Jesus = fables' - with that being the only possible meaning to be extracted from his words. I know I've seen 'fables' mentioned, but I would read that as an alternative to believing in Jesus (personally), since Jesus Christ is the Truth.
The most glaring of a misunderstanding between you, is (to me), especially in the light of this comment,
that when (in Falling from grace) you asked Ek if he keeps 'the law', and he said 'no', it didn't occur to you that he might not believe 'the law' is what is 'kept' by those who are in the New Covenant?
When you then justified re-stating 'the law' to 'the 10 commandments' - a slightly different question, still - and he doesn't keep them either, why would you think he is trying to 'deceive others with works of the law'?
That makes no sense!
Thank you for the new information. I hadn't looked in any other thread for your conversations with Ek.
I know you think you've answered my question in post # 63, but it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Additionally, I still think you are bringing theological interpretations to your questions which are unjustified, although to be sure of that, I'd have to ask you more questions.
Right now it's time for me to hit the sack so this reply is short, but it expresses more of my confusion.
Your other points to me are noted. However, I'd still be grateful for one quote from Ek where he says that 'believing in Jesus = fables' - with that being the only possible meaning to be extracted from his words. I know I've seen 'fables' mentioned, but I would read that as an alternative to believing in Jesus (personally), since Jesus Christ is the Truth.
The most glaring of a misunderstanding between you, is (to me), especially in the light of this comment,
that when (in Falling from grace) you asked Ek if he keeps 'the law', and he said 'no', it didn't occur to you that he might not believe 'the law' is what is 'kept' by those who are in the New Covenant?
When you then justified re-stating 'the law' to 'the 10 commandments' - a slightly different question, still - and he doesn't keep them either, why would you think he is trying to 'deceive others with works of the law'?
That makes no sense!
GLAD TO SEE! OTHERS HAVE ENTERED INTO TRUTH. AND NOT ALONE? AND TO ALL THE LEGALIST AND LAW-KEEPERS, I HOPE YOU REPENT FROM YOUR PRIDE THAT KEEPS YOU IN BONDAGE TO YOUR OWN FLESH. FOR ONLY BY GRACE AND THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH CAN YOU EVER OVERCOME THE SIN THAT LIVES IN US ALL! WE GROW IN NUMBER AND GRACE WILL SOON HAVE CONTROL OF THE CHURCH AS IT DID IN THE BEGINNING. THEN WE WILL SEE THE POWER THAT STEPHEN AND OTHERS HAD MANIFEST AGAIN IN THE CHURCH! GLORY FOREVER TO THE HUMBLE ONE! AND AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD!
The righteousness of faith? What on earth does that mean? Are you saying this is what saves us - "our own righteous faith"? Please explain.
We in the world? What on earth does that mean? True believers are not "in the world" You sound like a rampant Gnostic new age spiritual cowboy.
There is quite a difference between being a legalistic and one who rightly divides the word of truth lest he be not ashamed.
Hi Watchwithme,
Paul said it first.... Romans 4:13 (KJV) It is anything but to do with legalism.
Faith in the New Testament is usually God's, even by virtue of having spoken the word which creates faith in the hearer. Romans 10:17.
Paul said it first.... Romans 4:13 (KJV) It is anything but to do with legalism.
Faith in the New Testament is usually God's, even by virtue of having spoken the word which creates faith in the hearer. Romans 10:17.
Romans 4: 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
There is none righteous , keep it real people
Amen! Same here. We have very little in common with any organization or institution.
I only at first suspected that you were like-minded with me Epi and dragonfly and the more you talked the more I realized that we were.
The "Local Church" (Witness Lee's) church is big in my city and they are mostly known as being a cult. They will not fellowship with anyone that does not belong to the Local Church. We have a brother in our fellowship who was part of the Local Church for 16 years before the Lord opened his eyes. He was a "leader" in their church and very influential. We have many visitors that come by and we will fellowship with anyone that holds Jesus Christ as preeminent above all others in word and actions.
That is the key..."dependent on Christ", not man nor his institutions.
Ahhh, the "simplicity of Christ". We have several house churches in our area that are not related by anything or anyone, but Christ.
The Body of Christ is a living organism. "In Him we live and move and have our being".
Axehead
Hi haz,
(I'm having difficulty, so posting in parts).
I don't have time to search for all the places you challenged what Episkopos had written, but I searched for 'harder' (since you keep mentioning this) and found a very useful starting place in Kidron's thread entitled 'How to understand your sins.....now that you are born again'. http://www.christian...are-born-again/
I have challenged Kidron on his expressed view, and so far he has not replied. Reading his thread, though, it is clearer that Episkopos offered a response to the doctrine he laid out (with which you appear to agree). Here is a clip from his, and other posts in that thread -
to which you replied -
Episkopos responded with
My bold. After mark s joined in, Kidron replied, ending his post with this statement -
Episkopos replied -
In his next post Episkopos quoted these scriptures:
Here is part of Kidron's reply -
I believe the above quotes are enough to show what you are grieved about. Referring to Kidron's last statement, there is a difference between 'when you sin, God has already paid for it', and, 'When you sin... God has already forgiven them...' As far as I can tell, it is upon this point (at least) that we are differing from each other.
Also, I do dispute this use of 'where no law is there is no sin charged', as it is out of context completely, because it's patent that the era which applies in Paul's statement in Romans 7:9 is this one: Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses...' To escape from this death, we must have received the death of Christ as our own, otherwise, the reality spiritually is that we are still residing in Adam's death - and sinning. haz, at any time which we approach God through Jesus Christ, our sins can be forgiven up to date, but not tomorrow's sins - yet.
The death of Jesus Christ not only brought the fulfilment of the Mosaic law - Hebrews 9:15 - but also, fulfilled the covenant God made with Abraham - Galatians 3:14. The gospel is that we can cease from sin. I Peter 4:1, 2 Therefore, because Christ has died, we are now without excuse for sin. Romans 1:19, 20. We cannot, either, claim that the law does not apply to us while we are still in sin. 1 Timothy 1:9, 10, 11. Mental assent to the gospel is not 'salvation'. John speaks to this in his epistles.
By His death, 'the sin' which entered the world through Adam (Romans 5:12) was slain. By His death, the wrath of God for our sins (outworking of 'the sin') was appeased - for the purpose of our being able to receive remission of sins through the redemption that is in His blood by faith - Hebrews 10:4; John 3:16, 17; Luke 11:4 - and to experience freedom from the power of sin. Through faith, we are grafted into Christ's death (Romans 6:5) - which is a spiritual event at the time of our believing into Christ (which Paul, Peter and John understood).
In His death, 'the law' has no power over us. But that does not mean we continue in sin. Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Let's not skip over this question. How shall we that are 'dead to sin' live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: [for the purpose] that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Through faith we receive His resurrection, so as to walk in newness of life now.
When Episkopos started his thread 'Falling from grace', http://www.christian...ing-from-grace/, in his OP he put another sentence which you have quoted several times, apparently in disagreement with it. Here it is in bold -
Edit - continued after Richard's post
(I'm having difficulty, so posting in parts).
I don't have time to search for all the places you challenged what Episkopos had written, but I searched for 'harder' (since you keep mentioning this) and found a very useful starting place in Kidron's thread entitled 'How to understand your sins.....now that you are born again'. http://www.christian...are-born-again/
I have challenged Kidron on his expressed view, and so far he has not replied. Reading his thread, though, it is clearer that Episkopos offered a response to the doctrine he laid out (with which you appear to agree). Here is a clip from his, and other posts in that thread -
to which you replied -
Episkopos responded with
My bold. After mark s joined in, Kidron replied, ending his post with this statement -
Episkopos replied -
Your understanding is a common fable...magic Jesus comes to absolve you to sin as you wish (without trying to of course
In his next post Episkopos quoted these scriptures:
Here is part of Kidron's reply -
I believe the above quotes are enough to show what you are grieved about. Referring to Kidron's last statement, there is a difference between 'when you sin, God has already paid for it', and, 'When you sin... God has already forgiven them...' As far as I can tell, it is upon this point (at least) that we are differing from each other.
Also, I do dispute this use of 'where no law is there is no sin charged', as it is out of context completely, because it's patent that the era which applies in Paul's statement in Romans 7:9 is this one: Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses...' To escape from this death, we must have received the death of Christ as our own, otherwise, the reality spiritually is that we are still residing in Adam's death - and sinning. haz, at any time which we approach God through Jesus Christ, our sins can be forgiven up to date, but not tomorrow's sins - yet.
The death of Jesus Christ not only brought the fulfilment of the Mosaic law - Hebrews 9:15 - but also, fulfilled the covenant God made with Abraham - Galatians 3:14. The gospel is that we can cease from sin. I Peter 4:1, 2 Therefore, because Christ has died, we are now without excuse for sin. Romans 1:19, 20. We cannot, either, claim that the law does not apply to us while we are still in sin. 1 Timothy 1:9, 10, 11. Mental assent to the gospel is not 'salvation'. John speaks to this in his epistles.
By His death, 'the sin' which entered the world through Adam (Romans 5:12) was slain. By His death, the wrath of God for our sins (outworking of 'the sin') was appeased - for the purpose of our being able to receive remission of sins through the redemption that is in His blood by faith - Hebrews 10:4; John 3:16, 17; Luke 11:4 - and to experience freedom from the power of sin. Through faith, we are grafted into Christ's death (Romans 6:5) - which is a spiritual event at the time of our believing into Christ (which Paul, Peter and John understood).
In His death, 'the law' has no power over us. But that does not mean we continue in sin. Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Let's not skip over this question. How shall we that are 'dead to sin' live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: [for the purpose] that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Through faith we receive His resurrection, so as to walk in newness of life now.
When Episkopos started his thread 'Falling from grace', http://www.christian...ing-from-grace/, in his OP he put another sentence which you have quoted several times, apparently in disagreement with it. Here it is in bold -
Edit - continued after Richard's post
I am having truble finding the scripture that you used above. Can you post where it is found in Scripture so that it can be seen in context?
There were a lot of scripture in the O.T. Law of Moses that listed sins of the flesh and that the penalty was death.
You are saying that God doesn't bend His own rules and that He can't save a person that commits sins of the flesh. Why do you limit God? Jesus paid the penalty for our sins on the cross so God is not bending His rules. To God the children of faith have the righteousness of Jesus accounted to them.
Do you agree?
Edit - continued from the post above Richard's. [end edit]
About grace being the means by which we perfectly obey the law of Christ, it must be related to the end of Ephesians 1, and Ephesians 3:7 '... I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. The effectual working of His power is the power of His resurrection, where through the Spirit of grace, we are now enabled to minister to Him in Spirit and truth - to obey His commands and His calling upon our lives, to minister to others.
Paul makes clear there is a still a battle with 'the flesh', to which the solution is to 'mortify' it - Romans 8:13. This is something you decide to so, and the Holy Spirit helps you. The Spirit does not do it for you but with you. Mortification is the spiritual application of the death of Christ in 'the flesh', in my/your body. Romans 8:3 This is only one aspect of how we overcome sin in reality. Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Galatians 5:16
Regarding the call to repentance for sin, if a believer sins, I wish to raise Paul's response to the news from Corinth of the blase way the brethren there had failed to challenge the sin of idolatry in the fornicator who was calling himself a brother. Paul does not say this man is not saved, but today, faulty theology leans towards questioning a person's salvation in its efforts to avoid confronting sin in the believer - rather than dealing with the sins in the ways set out in the New Testament. What Paul does say, is that repentance is required both on their parts, and on the part of the fornicator. (ie repentance toward God.) Is it possible to read the Corinthian epistles and miss this teaching?
To quote Ek again in Kidron's thread mentioned above:
'It is a human invention that has to make God change instead of us. WE are to change...God changeth not!!!!! Please refrain from inventing schemes that change God.'
Romans 1 talks about changing God: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image ... 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator... 26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections... 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness...'
In short, this is the fruit which will be reaped from failing to acknowledge God appropriately. It is no surprise that carnal men have latched on to a version of the gospel which does not set free from sin in reality. The flesh is very strong and it appeals to be excused from death. That is precisely why bringing it to death - through the death of Christ - is good news. His death spells our release. It's only through His death that 'our old man' was crucified with Him. Romans 6:6 This is something we receive, rather than 'do'.
The accusation that walking in obedience to His death is somehow a work of the law, has no foundation in spiritual reality. Hopefully, it's a misunderstanding of terms.
1 Corinthians 10:13 This usually means actively receiving the meaning of His death again, in that moment, with the help of the Holy Spirit.
About grace being the means by which we perfectly obey the law of Christ, it must be related to the end of Ephesians 1, and Ephesians 3:7 '... I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. The effectual working of His power is the power of His resurrection, where through the Spirit of grace, we are now enabled to minister to Him in Spirit and truth - to obey His commands and His calling upon our lives, to minister to others.
Paul makes clear there is a still a battle with 'the flesh', to which the solution is to 'mortify' it - Romans 8:13. This is something you decide to so, and the Holy Spirit helps you. The Spirit does not do it for you but with you. Mortification is the spiritual application of the death of Christ in 'the flesh', in my/your body. Romans 8:3 This is only one aspect of how we overcome sin in reality. Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Galatians 5:16
Regarding the call to repentance for sin, if a believer sins, I wish to raise Paul's response to the news from Corinth of the blase way the brethren there had failed to challenge the sin of idolatry in the fornicator who was calling himself a brother. Paul does not say this man is not saved, but today, faulty theology leans towards questioning a person's salvation in its efforts to avoid confronting sin in the believer - rather than dealing with the sins in the ways set out in the New Testament. What Paul does say, is that repentance is required both on their parts, and on the part of the fornicator. (ie repentance toward God.) Is it possible to read the Corinthian epistles and miss this teaching?
To quote Ek again in Kidron's thread mentioned above:
'It is a human invention that has to make God change instead of us. WE are to change...God changeth not!!!!! Please refrain from inventing schemes that change God.'
Romans 1 talks about changing God: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image ... 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator... 26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections... 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness...'
In short, this is the fruit which will be reaped from failing to acknowledge God appropriately. It is no surprise that carnal men have latched on to a version of the gospel which does not set free from sin in reality. The flesh is very strong and it appeals to be excused from death. That is precisely why bringing it to death - through the death of Christ - is good news. His death spells our release. It's only through His death that 'our old man' was crucified with Him. Romans 6:6 This is something we receive, rather than 'do'.
The accusation that walking in obedience to His death is somehow a work of the law, has no foundation in spiritual reality. Hopefully, it's a misunderstanding of terms.
1 Corinthians 10:13 This usually means actively receiving the meaning of His death again, in that moment, with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Paul calls this law...the law of sin and death.
The children of faith do not just have the righteousness of God accounted to them...but actually given to them. Does a person with a broken leg have a healing accounted to him or actually given to him? Are the miracles of the bible real or just a representation of something allegorical? Accounting means nothing if there is no actual healing. This is the difference in our gospels. You maintain that our victory over sin is that sin doesn't count any more...you are not actually doing it...just your body is!! Then why not sin the more to show how it doesn't matter. It is like saying if you put a dagger through your heart then you won't bleed out and die!!! So then to prove this why not stick a dagger in your heart???
But this is not the true gospel. We show the world the grace we have received by what we say and do. The world will only see we are of God when we show forth His presence and power. We are to be champions of God not just spectators and talkers.
The new testament is in the Spirit and power not just words.
Hello Richard,
I apologise for the length of the post into which your's has fallen. The system was having difficulty recognising all the quote tags, so I had to break it up and post it piecemeal. In it, the quote from scripture for which you asked, was part of a conversation between Episkopos and some others in the thread linked at the top of my post. If you go there, you'll see I have not quoted everything, so as to try to keep to the main factors under discussion. That's where your request for scripture comes from.
Now I will try to answer your questions.
There are three places that that specific phrase, 'the soul that sins, it shall die', appears. They are: Numbers 15:28, Ezekiel 18:4 and Ezekiel 18:20
Here are some. Deu 13:5, [I note a slight difference in phraseology in the first one.] Deu 17:7, Deu 19:19, Deu 21:21, Deu 22:21, Deu 24:7.
There are others which convey an equally strong meaning with regard to the sins of certain generations whose kings 'caused Israel to sin', (meaning... by idol worship).
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD.
Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness,
and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ to all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
It appears that God had a separate rule, by which through faith in Jesus, we might be justified from our sin. But this is not so that we continue in sin, but rather, to enable us to give it up. I don't believe I'm limiting God at all. In fact it's of His greatness that we may partakers of His divine nature. 1 Peter 1:3, 4, 5. God chose to die for sin and for our sins, that He might by Himself, justify us from sin. But to apply for that justification to become ours, we do have to make a break with sin with our whole heart and mind, and we have to desire to resist sin as Jesus did - Hebrews 7:26, 1 Peter 2:22. The righteousness of God not only refers to the absence of sin in Him, and His holiness (separateness from mankind) but also His willingness to 'do' the 'right' thing regardless of the cost to Himself.
From My Utmost for His Highest, Nov 20, Ephesians 1:7 Oswald Chambers wrote:
Beware of the pleasant view of the fatherhood of God: God is so kind and loving that of course He will forgive us.
That thought, based solely on emotion, cannot be found anywhere in the New Testament.
The only basis on which God can forgive us is the tremendous tragedy of the Cross of Christ....
.The revealed truth of God is that without the atonement He cannot forgive— He would contradict His nature if He did.
The only way we can be forgiven is by being brought back to God through the atonement of the Cross.
God’s forgiveness is possible only in the supernatural realm.
Compared with the miracle of the forgiveness of sin, the experience of sanctification is small.
Sanctification is simply the wonderful expression or evidence of the forgiveness of sins in a human life.
the thing that awakens the deepest fountain of gratitude in a human being is that God has forgiven his sin. Paul never got away from this.
Once you realize all that it cost God to forgive you, you will be held as in a vice, constrained by the love of God.
I agree that God found a way to redeem us from sin - to pay our ransom to free us from sin - to buy us back from Satan's strongholds. (That's what 'redeem' means.)
Richard, everyone who comes to God has been committing 'sins of the flesh', but the New Testament clearly shows that through the death of Jesus Christ we have the power to cease from sin, and, we are expected to strive to do so - then to live our lives in the power of the cross and of the Holy Spirit, not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. Gal 5:16.
Romans 8
William Tyndale translates these verses -
8 So then, they that are given to the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not given to the flesh, but to the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
If there be any man that hath not the spirit of Christ, the same is none of His. 10 If Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin: but the Spirit is life for righteousness' sake.
(KJV) 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Hebrews 9:26b '... but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
1 Peter 1:13 - 21 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: but as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. ['Holy' means set apart to God for His sole purposes, like the vessels in the Temple were.]
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. [That is, we hope to be raised to eternal life. Daniel 12:2]
In v 17, here is Strong's Greek Lexicon
fear
φόbος alarm or fright
Derivation: from a primary φέbομaι (to be put in fear);
KJV Usage: be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror
Thayer:
I apologise for the length of the post into which your's has fallen. The system was having difficulty recognising all the quote tags, so I had to break it up and post it piecemeal. In it, the quote from scripture for which you asked, was part of a conversation between Episkopos and some others in the thread linked at the top of my post. If you go there, you'll see I have not quoted everything, so as to try to keep to the main factors under discussion. That's where your request for scripture comes from.
Now I will try to answer your questions.
dragonfly, on 23 July 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:
Quote
'... The soul that sins...it shall die. Nothing can change that. God doesn't bend His own rules...
I am having truble finding the scripture that you used above. Can you post where it is found in Scripture so that it can be seen in context?
There are three places that that specific phrase, 'the soul that sins, it shall die', appears. They are: Numbers 15:28, Ezekiel 18:4 and Ezekiel 18:20
Here are some. Deu 13:5, [I note a slight difference in phraseology in the first one.] Deu 17:7, Deu 19:19, Deu 21:21, Deu 22:21, Deu 24:7.
There are others which convey an equally strong meaning with regard to the sins of certain generations whose kings 'caused Israel to sin', (meaning... by idol worship).
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD.
Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness,
and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ to all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
It appears that God had a separate rule, by which through faith in Jesus, we might be justified from our sin. But this is not so that we continue in sin, but rather, to enable us to give it up. I don't believe I'm limiting God at all. In fact it's of His greatness that we may partakers of His divine nature. 1 Peter 1:3, 4, 5. God chose to die for sin and for our sins, that He might by Himself, justify us from sin. But to apply for that justification to become ours, we do have to make a break with sin with our whole heart and mind, and we have to desire to resist sin as Jesus did - Hebrews 7:26, 1 Peter 2:22. The righteousness of God not only refers to the absence of sin in Him, and His holiness (separateness from mankind) but also His willingness to 'do' the 'right' thing regardless of the cost to Himself.
From My Utmost for His Highest, Nov 20, Ephesians 1:7 Oswald Chambers wrote:
Beware of the pleasant view of the fatherhood of God: God is so kind and loving that of course He will forgive us.
That thought, based solely on emotion, cannot be found anywhere in the New Testament.
The only basis on which God can forgive us is the tremendous tragedy of the Cross of Christ....
.The revealed truth of God is that without the atonement He cannot forgive— He would contradict His nature if He did.
The only way we can be forgiven is by being brought back to God through the atonement of the Cross.
God’s forgiveness is possible only in the supernatural realm.
Compared with the miracle of the forgiveness of sin, the experience of sanctification is small.
Sanctification is simply the wonderful expression or evidence of the forgiveness of sins in a human life.
the thing that awakens the deepest fountain of gratitude in a human being is that God has forgiven his sin. Paul never got away from this.
Once you realize all that it cost God to forgive you, you will be held as in a vice, constrained by the love of God.
I agree that God found a way to redeem us from sin - to pay our ransom to free us from sin - to buy us back from Satan's strongholds. (That's what 'redeem' means.)
Richard, everyone who comes to God has been committing 'sins of the flesh', but the New Testament clearly shows that through the death of Jesus Christ we have the power to cease from sin, and, we are expected to strive to do so - then to live our lives in the power of the cross and of the Holy Spirit, not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. Gal 5:16.
Romans 8
William Tyndale translates these verses -
8 So then, they that are given to the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not given to the flesh, but to the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
If there be any man that hath not the spirit of Christ, the same is none of His. 10 If Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin: but the Spirit is life for righteousness' sake.
(KJV) 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Hebrews 9:26b '... but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
1 Peter 1:13 - 21 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: but as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. ['Holy' means set apart to God for His sole purposes, like the vessels in the Temple were.]
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. [That is, we hope to be raised to eternal life. Daniel 12:2]
In v 17, here is Strong's Greek Lexicon
fear
φόbος alarm or fright
Derivation: from a primary φέbομaι (to be put in fear);
KJV Usage: be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror
Thayer:
1) fear, dread, terror
1a) that which strikes terror
2) reverence for one's husband
1a) that which strikes terror
2) reverence for one's husband
i thought that by coming to a christian forum that i might get away from satans favorite trick ,of circular arguments? for every lying spirit operates according to its ability to confuse and quickly change topics when it is cornered by truth. sad to see, that the lying spirit is very much at work in this thread!!! the Righteousness of Faith is such a basic understanding that for someone to act as if it is something not understood as a principle of common doctrine! proves they are completly ignorant of any concept of Christianity, or are operating in a spirit other than that given by Christ ! i do not run in circles with demons! i overcome them with the righteousness of faith! that empowers me to be as bold as a lion!!! beware little devils a man of God is in your playpen!
all you law keepers should take trip somewhere??? to His Cross and explain to Him and His FATHER , how important you are in your works! speak to Him while he hangs there and tell Him He is wasting His blood because you can clean yourself and keep yourself by your own works!!
no you should hear Paul and consider the cross! i know its sounds foolish to you who are so strong and able and wise?
all you law keepers should take trip somewhere??? to His Cross and explain to Him and His FATHER , how important you are in your works! speak to Him while he hangs there and tell Him He is wasting His blood because you can clean yourself and keep yourself by your own works!!
no you should hear Paul and consider the cross! i know its sounds foolish to you who are so strong and able and wise?
Since Satan realised slaughtering the saints wasn't working, he new he had to infiltrate the church with false teachers of false doctrine. which started 2000 years ago, nothing has changed. Correction:
What was a little cloud the size of a man’s hand in Jude’s day is, in our day, a storm of hurricane proportions – because we are in the apostasy of which he foretold.
Dr. H. L. WILLMINGTON
Brother Dave; did you really think it would be any different in a Christian forum? Every forum is the same, EVERY SINGLE one of them.
Now as far as you comments go about "the righteousness of faith" One needs to be very care that this it not self righteousness. Given that the topic is the gospel of Grace, surely it needs to be said that it is not our own righteous faith that saves us, but the one in whom we put our faith?
i dont think self righteousness is a problem of the faith crowd? but the works crowd! SELF- righteousness!!!
and paul didnt warn us of becoming self-righteous in faith???? that makes no sense!!! and one who has ceased from his own works has ceased from the PRIDE of those works!
and paul didnt warn us of becoming self-righteous in faith???? that makes no sense!!! and one who has ceased from his own works has ceased from the PRIDE of those works!
Similar threads
