The Gospel Plus Nothing

[Randy Kluth]

The scripture says, "Choose this day whom you will serve". We are called to make a choice. I am not a Calvinist. They believe that they didn't make a choice to accept Christ as their savior, instead, God choose them before the foundation of the world. This is not true because God is not a respecter of anyone's person.

I'm a partial Calvinist, because I agree with you that there are real choices. We choose Christ.

But I also believe that God chose us before the world began. He probably had in mind a set number for His children. The problem is, Man's wrong choice created complications for this plan, and the result was the addition of many more children who do not follow their calling. They weren't planned, but neither do they choose for that plan. They could, but they don't.

This is difficult to understand, but it is what it is. I believe a set number of us were planned, and we in our sin added more. God isn't responsible for the "more." He gives them the same chance He gives us. But they won't. End of story.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I am not sure that Martin Luther argued against free will. Martin Luther and John Calvin were not friends. John Calvin was in his early 20's when he came up with his predestination doctrine. Luther did not approve of it. (Conversations with Luther pp. 135 f.).

Martin Luther wrote the book on Predestination. I read the book "The Bondage of the Will." That set the course for Calvin, who went farther than Luther. But Luther set the stage.

Or, we can go back and say that Augustine set the stage. Or, we can even go back farther and say that Paul or Jesus set the stage.

All of them speak of the "sheep" and the "goats," of "children of God" and "children of the devil." The process by which these are determined is part Predestination and part Free Will...in my opinion.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So then we are saved by a combination of Christ's presence within us, and also by our determination to obey. Is that the idea? And if we don't have that determination to obey, even though Christ lives in us, we are not "saved". Am I following you correctly?

Much love!

Christ doesn't live in us if we don't have the determination to obey. That confuses me.

When people determine to receive Christ, they have to decide whether this will be a lasting experience or an aborted experience. Many have responded to the call to become Christians. But certainly not all remain.

Those who remain in Christ prove they have chosen for a lasting experience by showing a genuine affection for God's presence and also by truly showing they know what it means to die to their carnal nature. Those who have not fully committed to Christ use him for selfish purposes, for vain glory, for gain.

So it is a choice we must make for Christ in order to be saved. We must make a genuine choice and then demonstrate that we know what that really means. Accepting Christ for real does save us, yes.

This isn't just a "determination to obey." Rather, it's actual obedience, involving 1st the real acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior, and 2ndly the real demonstration of showing in our lives what that means. It will not be perfect, but it will be genuine and reflect that.

"A good tree bears good fruit." A good tree doesn't just do good deeds, no matter how good those deeds really may be. A good tree bears the good deed of embracing Christ as Savior of the world.

 

[ButterflyJones]

If it is the Gospel plus something, then it is no longer the Gospel.

Only about 10% of professing Christians know and understand the Gospel, maybe that is why Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. What most have found is religion. Religion is man's preoccupation with his own spirituality, which is himself. The historical Gospel of Jesus Christ is not about us, it is about Jesus Christ. His life, His death, His Resurrection, His position in heaven. We are not the instigators of the Gospel; we are the benefactors of the Gospel. The word "Gospel" means good news. It is good news for sinners, but it is bad news for the self-righteous, religious.

In the Gospel God clothes himself in human flesh and becomes one with us, but not one of us. His mission is to come into the world to defeat sin, death and the devil so that whosoever believes in him can be saved, John 3:17. He didn't come into the world to show us the way, he was the way, John 14:6. Jesus was not only God with us, Jesus was also God for us. By his righteous sinless life, he fulfills all of the demands of God's Holy Law. He does this in our name and on our behalf, just like we did it ourselves. This is why Paul wrote, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. Jesus not only fulfilled the law for us, but he also abolished the law for us, Ephesians 2:15.

Christians don't need laws, rules or religion, we are complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. If you need laws, rules and religion it may be that you do not possess the Holy Spirit, who is the Christians guide and keeper, John 16:13. If we are complete in Christ then who needs religion? Christ and Christ alone is the Christians righteousness. We rest in him, Hebrews 4:10.

The Pharisees said that the Torah was "The way, the truth and the life and was the light that lightens every man" John took what the Jews said about the Torah and applied it to Jesus, John 14:6. Many have made laws, rules and religion their Jesus. This is very sad because they don't really know him. We cannot really know him until we accept him and his Gospel. In the Gospel we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30 and now stand before God's Holy Court as perfect and complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

I submit that Jesus told us few will find it because he taught us the natural mind of humans are unable to understand the things of God because those are only able to be understood by those indwelt by the HS. And those ones are those whom called to himself. Because he predestined them, see names in God's Book of Eternal Life,before the foundation of the world.

 

[MatthewG]

Are you saying the whole world is now reconciled...without faith?

Hello epi,

Thats what Paul suggested to be true, to the Corinthians in his second letter,

We Are God’s Ambassadors​

11 Because we understand our fearful responsibility to the Lord, we work hard to persuade others. God knows we are sincere, and I hope you know this, too. 12 Are we commending ourselves to you again? No, we are giving you a reason to be proud of us,[a] so you can answer those who brag about having a spectacular ministry rather than having a sincere heart. 13 If it seems we are crazy, it is to bring glory to God. And if we are in our right minds, it is for your benefit. 14 Either way, Christ’s love controls us.[b]Since we believe that Christ died for all, we also believe that we have all died to our old life.[c]15 He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them.

16 So we have stopped evaluating others from a human point of view. At one time we thought of Christ merely from a human point of view. How differently we know him now! 17 This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!

18 And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him.19 For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. 20 So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” 21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin,[d] so that we could be made right with God through Christ.
​

He also talks about Gods faithfulness, to the saints at rome.

​

God Remains Faithful​

3 Then what’s the advantage of being a Jew? Is there any value in the ceremony of circumcision?2 Yes, there are great benefits! First of all, the Jews were entrusted with the whole revelation of God.[a]

3 True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful? 4 Of course not! Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true. As the Scriptures say about him,

“You will be proved right in what you say,
and you will win your case in court.”[b]

5 “But,” some might say, “our sinfulness serves a good purpose, for it helps people see how righteous God is. Isn’t it unfair, then, for him to punish us?” (This is merely a human point of view.) 6 Of course not! If God were not entirely fair, how would he be qualified to judge the world? 7 “But,” someone might still argue, “how can God condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty highlights his truthfulness and brings him more glory?” 8 And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, “The more we sin, the better it is!” Those who say such things deserve to be condemned.
​

Just sharing.​

 

[MatthewG]

Robert,

Cause of the title, would like share,
Paul to the saints at rome.

​

God’s Good News​

8 Let me say first that I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith in him is being talked about all over the world.9 God knows how often I pray for you. Day and night I bring you and your needs in prayer to God, whom I serve with all my heart[d] by spreading the Good News about his Son.

10 One of the things I always pray for is the opportunity, God willing, to come at last to see you. 11 For I long to visit you so I can bring you some spiritual gift that will help you grow strong in the Lord. 12 When we get together, I want to encourage you in your faith, but I also want to be encouraged by yours.

13 I want you to know, dear brothers and sisters,[e] that I planned many times to visit you, but I was prevented until now. I want to work among you and see spiritual fruit, just as I have seen among other Gentiles. 14 For I have a great sense of obligation to people in both the civilized world and the rest of the world,[f] to the educated and uneducated alike. 15 So I am eager to come to you in Rome, too, to preach the Good News.

16 For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile.[g] 17 This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”[h]​

 

[Randy Kluth]

I submit that Jesus told us few will find it because he taught us the natural mind of humans are unable to understand the things of God because those are only able to be understood by those indwelt by the HS. And those ones are those whom called to himself. Because he predestined them, see names in God's Book of Eternal Life,before the foundation of the world.

Yep! There's only one way we are justified, that is being baptized into Christ, to receive His reconciliation, and new life. And being justified in Christ, we cannot do a single thing to add to it.

Just to be clear, no Christian "adds to our redemption" when we choose Christ as our Savior or when we choose to live obedient to Christ. Christ alone redeemed us, and he alone is worthy. When we choose to accept his standard of Salvation we agree to submit our human will to his higher heavenly will. We submit to him as Lord.

We are not justified based on our behavior. Nothing we do or don't do has anything to do with our justification other than believing in Jesus, receiving Him. When God justifies us, baptizing us into Christ, we are recreated to share in God's Own nature, and we go on to spend our lives being trained by Him to walk in that new nature, to walk in the Spirit.

Yes, but again to be clear, our behavior as Christians or even as new converts is not to pursue self-justification apart from Christ. Christ alone justifies us for Eternal Salvation.

None of this indicates that we cannot make right choices or virtuous choices because all men have been given access to God's word and Spirit.

What all men do *not* have is the gift of the Holy Spirit, or the residence of God within them, which comes only when we receive Jesus as our sole source of Salvation. We then acknowledge that all virtue comes from him, and we denounce our own self-efforts at justification.

 

[Episkopos]

Hello epi,

Thats what Paul suggested to be true, to the Corinthians in his second letter,

We Are God’s Ambassadors​

11 Because we understand our fearful responsibility to the Lord, we work hard to persuade others. God knows we are sincere, and I hope you know this, too. 12 Are we commending ourselves to you again? No, we are giving you a reason to be proud of us,[a] so you can answer those who brag about having a spectacular ministry rather than having a sincere heart. 13 If it seems we are crazy, it is to bring glory to God. And if we are in our right minds, it is for your benefit. 14 Either way, Christ’s love controls us.[b]Since we believe that Christ died for all, we also believe that we have all died to our old life.[c]15 He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them.

16 So we have stopped evaluating others from a human point of view. At one time we thought of Christ merely from a human point of view. How differently we know him now! 17 This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!

18 And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him.19 For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. 20 So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” 21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin,[d] so that we could be made right with God through Christ.
​

He also talks about Gods faithfulness, to the saints at rome.

​

God Remains Faithful​

3 Then what’s the advantage of being a Jew? Is there any value in the ceremony of circumcision?2 Yes, there are great benefits! First of all, the Jews were entrusted with the whole revelation of God.[a]

3 True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful? 4 Of course not! Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true. As the Scriptures say about him,

“You will be proved right in what you say,
and you will win your case in court.”[b]

5 “But,” some might say, “our sinfulness serves a good purpose, for it helps people see how righteous God is. Isn’t it unfair, then, for him to punish us?” (This is merely a human point of view.) 6 Of course not! If God were not entirely fair, how would he be qualified to judge the world? 7 “But,” someone might still argue, “how can God condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty highlights his truthfulness and brings him more glory?” 8 And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, “The more we sin, the better it is!” Those who say such things deserve to be condemned.
​

Just sharing.​

An interesting twist in interpreting the bible. However, this is not faithful to the text. Inserting words...manipulating the text...is now common practice. If people want to be affirmed in their present state...so be it.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Epi,

New living translation is easy to read cause I find it hard to read some versions on the internet. Not sure exactly how own interprets scriptures unless it's by the holy spirit, or the flesh itself though. That is all I can really say.

All the best, and may the God of all comfort be with you,
Matthew

 

[Robert Pate]

I submit that Jesus told us few will find it because he taught us the natural mind of humans are unable to understand the things of God because those are only able to be understood by those indwelt by the HS. And those ones are those whom called to himself. Because he predestined them, see names in God's Book of Eternal Life,before the foundation of the world.

If you were correct, then none would find it.

 

[ButterflyJones]

If you were correct, then none would find it.

Not true.

 

[Robert Pate]

Not true.

You must be a Calvinist. Did God predestinate Adam to sin?

 

[ButterflyJones]

You must be a Calvinist. Did God predestinate Adam to sin?

You must suffer CDS.
How sad.

No, I'm a Bible reader who takes God at his word.

 

[Robert Pate]

I'm a partial Calvinist, because I agree with you that there are real choices. We choose Christ.

But I also believe that God chose us before the world began. He probably had in mind a set number for His children. The problem is, Man's wrong choice created complications for this plan, and the result was the addition of many more children who do not follow their calling. They weren't planned, but neither do they choose for that plan. They could, but they don't.

This is difficult to understand, but it is what it is. I believe a set number of us were planned, and we in our sin added more. God isn't responsible for the "more." He gives them the same chance He gives us. But they won't. End of story.

God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ. Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. This is why Jesus is the savior of the whole world. The law has been fulfilled and all sin has been atoned for so that "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord can be saved" Romans 10:13.

 

[ButterflyJones]

God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ. Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. This is why Jesus is the savior of the whole world. The law has been fulfilled and all sin has been atoned for so that "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord can be saved" Romans 10:13.

You're a Christian Universalist?

 

[Robert Pate]

You're a Christian Universalist?

Not really. A universalist believes that everyone is going to be saved regardless of what they believe.

I believe that Jesus has provided salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. However, nothing is ours until it is received by faith, Ephesians 2:8.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Not really. A universalist believes that everyone is going to be saved regardless of what they believe.

I believe that Jesus has provided salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. However, nothing is ours until it is received by faith, Ephesians 2:8.

Jesus said no one comes to him, is saved, unless God calls them.

 

[Robert Pate]

Jesus said no one comes to him, is saved, unless God calls them.

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling everyone to come to Christ. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16. I have never found anyone that does not know that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. Some years ago, I wrote an article, "The Recorded Atrocities of John Calvin". I think that it is still on the internet. Try googling it.

 

[ButterflyJones]

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling everyone to come to Christ. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16. I have never found anyone that does not know that Jesus died on the cross for their sins.

You live in a closed Christian community?
Many don't "know" that. Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, etc...

 

[amigo de christo]

You live in a closed Christian community?
Many don't "know" that. Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, etc...

Many have heard it , but willfully reject it . Many athiests , buddists , muslims and peoples
actually have heard about Christ , yet willfully reject HIM as the CHRIST the savoir of the world .
They reap destruction upon themselves . Many did hear the wonderful beautiful song of salvation
but sadly they have rejected it . I give us a challenge . Go talk to a roomful of buddist
then go to a roomful of muslims , or of atheists or whateverist .
AND speak about JESUS CHRIST . THEN see , most of them have already heard it , most of them will tell you
so and they still refuse to believe on it and to leave their wicked religoin or mindset .
MANY , MANY have heard and yet i tell us all that many reject .
To the end we must continue to point to Christ . Some will repent and believe and be saved
but many will reject . And now that the false love inclusive gospel has taken the ground ,
Many of all religoins and tribes are now gathering under ITS LIE . You know , the lie
that says one has no need to even believe on JESUS but are fine with their own path so long as they have some good works
and this so called wordly love . We nigh the end my friend . BUT the lambs shall point ONLY TO CHRIST JESUS .