The Great Apostasy in the Church.

[ScottA]

2. By His Spirit
3. In His Immortality

Why do you consider these to be two and different, since Jesus has gone to the Father and is One with Him who in His glory is spirit?

 

[Davy]

I have shown numerous times that I don't believe or follow ALL of the traditional Amil view by denominational church-ianity, but rather a hybrid form of it, as it is taught by the Holy Spirit.

That won't work.

The Holy Spirit does not teach men's theory of Amillennialism, which is actually a doctrine of the 2nd century Gnostics.

 

[Timtofly]

You are talking to the choir here.
John.11
[26] And whosoever liveth AND believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Rom. 8
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Edit: you are misunderstanding my words, which are biblically on target by the Holy Spirit, and not that of the wisdom of men. (Clue: look at the words in my avatar).

Ye must be born again to skip the time of Jacob's trouble and the future 1,000 year reign of Christ.

However you must be chosen by God to live on earth during the Day of the Lord.

Adam was chosen by God to live in the Garden. To live in Paradise, and eternal life away from the earth, those of Adam's flesh, must chose God.

That is the future. You post is talking about the present. Those currently in Paradise already have a physical body and enjoying eternal life. In God's presence, having the Holy Spirit is not necessary.

 

[Earburner]

That won't work.

The Holy Spirit does not teach men's theory of Amillennialism, which is actually a doctrine of the 2nd century Gnostics.

It most surely does work!! 1 Cor. 2:5.
Here is an example, that is not by "the wisdom men": the symbolic 144,000 are those who had faith in the "Promise to come", while they lived and died under the OC, without the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. John 7:39.

However, all of such were written in a book of "Remembrance" before God. Malachi 3:16.
Rev. 6:9-11 reveals that God did not forget them, for on the day of Jesus' resurrection, many (but not all) of those saints came out of their graves, and appeared unto many. Mat. 27:53.

 

[Timtofly]

Again, please see Rom. 8:9.
Upon Christ's glorious return, in Immortality, if anyone is found to be without the Spirit of Christ, there are NO SECOND CHANCES for the offer of salvation, no matter how many thousands of years of a future millennium.

Obviously, because God does not need to save those already alive and without sin.

No sinners, no need of salvation. No sin, and eternal righteousness. The Transgression will be removed from the earth. Adam's dead corruptible flesh will be removed, and the curse lifted. The earth will be like it was the second prior to Adam's disobedience.

 

[Timtofly]

Sorry, but do you know what a "new creature" is??
To be born again BY God's Holy Spirit, is to be BORN FROM ABOVE NOW. No one, saved or unsaved, is going to be "restored" back to the original Adam before the fall.

All who are born again now, are already made to be "New creatures" by His Spirit. We all who are in Christ, are just waiting to be made in to the likeness of Christ's IMMORTALITY, so that "where He is, there we may be also".

I agree. But more than that, the church is physically enjoying Paradise in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They have experienced the first resurrection. They are like the angels and do not procreate. No one is in a state of death physically, nor spiritually, in Paradise. You are describing those on the earth. Unless you are an unique Amil, there is no physical resurrection waiting for those in Christ. They have already passed from death into life. No one in Christ is waiting for any resurrection. The day of redemption is when the soul leaves this body for that one from God in Paradise.

That is why Amil deny the future. They claim there is a future resurrection, and that is the end of reality. All life is for them is this current flesh for a few years. God's reality is just metaphor to Amil.

 

[Earburner]

Why do you consider these to be two and different, since Jesus has gone to the Father and is One with Him who in His glory is spirit?

Jesus, prior to His incarnation into mortal flesh, He was Himself Eternal Holy Spirit with His Father.
But now, since becoming mortal flesh, and then His resurrection into Immortality, He is now Eternal Holy Spirit, with Immortal flesh, being the very "first resurrection" of that which is a "New creature", that had never been before. The firstborn from the dead.

His 3 appearances/manifestations to us, was, is now and shall be:
1. In the likeness of our mortal flesh.
John 1:14.
2. By His Holy Spirit. John 14:23; John 20:19; Acts 9:3-5; Rom. 8:8-9; Rev. 3:20.
3. In His Immortality, upon His Glorious and visible return. 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

In the literal reality of His New Life of Being, Jesus has the ability to be Holy Spirit and/or visible Immortal flesh, at will.

 

[Earburner]

Obviously, because God does not need to save those already alive and without sin.

No sinners, no need of salvation. No sin, and eternal righteousness. The Transgression will be removed from the earth. Adam's dead corruptible flesh will be removed, and the curse lifted. The earth will be like it was the second prior to Adam's disobedience.

For me, that is a scary understanding, that is not anything of the KJV NT scriptures..
Can you reference any NT scriptures that support your belief system?

Edit: I'm assuming that you are talking about the Premil view of a FUTURE additional 1000 years, after Christ's Glorious return. Or are you talking about the NHNE INTO ETERNITY?

 

[Timtofly]

I'm assuming that you are talking about the Premil view of a FUTURE additional 1000 years, after Christ's Glorious return. Or are you talking about the NHNE INTO ETERNITY?

Does it matter which?

Adam's dead state is only temporary, not for after the Second Coming. The whole point of Daniel 9:24.

"To finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Certainly you don't think Adam's dead state continues on forever?

I accept Revelation 20 and a future removal of Satan as well. You turn the Day of the Lord into an indefinite here and now.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Did the Day of the Lord start in the first century as described by Peter in 2 Peter 3?

 

[ewq1938]

I am glad that you said that, because that is exactly the case for the KJV.
In the KJV, one will never find the words "the" and "antichrist" strung together, so as to imply "that spirit OF antichrist" should be erroneously understood in the singular, being only one man.
However, in many of the spurious newer versions of modern bibles, it is written as "the antichrist".

That wouldn't be wrong because AC in the singular is one certain person so in English a "the" is appropriate. It doesn't need to be there but is ok if it is. Antichrist is singular and speaks of one certain man while antichrists plural speak of the many types and shadows of this man and there have been many of them and there are many now but John is specific when he said "antichrist shall come". He isn't speaking of the many or plural there.

 

[ewq1938]

You are misconstruing two opposing concepts, attempting to establish a false conclusion.

After the Glorious return of Jesus, his 3rd and final manifestation, the Premil view concludes that their is then a hope for a "second chance" for salvation, whereas the Amil view emphatically reveals that there is no such thing as a "second chance" for salvation, after the glorious appearing of Christ from heaven.

Every time we repent and are forgiven is a second chance, over and over and over so denying the idea of one second chance is ridiculous. Repentance is possible at least until the end of the Millennium then there is a rebellion caused by deceptions, and then judgment day.

 

[Earburner]

Every time we repent and are forgiven is a second chance, over and over and over so denying the idea of one second chance is ridiculous. Repentance is possible at least until the end of the Millennium then there is a rebellion caused by deceptions, and then judgment day.

No, I am meaning there is no second chance for salvation TO ALL who do not have the Spirit of Christ within them, upon His sudden return from Heaven, in all His visible Glory.

 

[Earburner]

Does it matter which?

Actually, it does. There many other doctrines of topic that are incorporated, in order to form the basis for the belief of the Amil or Premil stance.

Adam's dead state is only temporary, not for after the Second Coming. The whole point of Daniel 9:24.

I'm assuming you are meaning the Adamic dead state of we who are now born again of God's Holy Spirit. To that I agree.
But, as for anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, whether they are physically dead, or are alive at Christ's Glorious return, they are by default "none of His", and shall not continue in any form of life thereafter.

"To finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Amen! The last of of the 70 weeks, was that one week, performed by Christ upon the cross, and that of His resurrection and ascension.

Certainly you don't think Adam's dead state continues on forever?

Agreed! We who are born again, shall be "changed" into the likeness of His Immortality, in the Day of Christ's return from heaven. However, for those who do not have the Spirit of Christ, they cannot continue to live on in any form of existence. There are no second chances for them.

I accept Revelation 20 and a future removal of Satan as well. You turn the Day of the Lord into an indefinite here and now.

There is no such thing as an indefinite "here and now". All of it will be destroyed upon the Day of Christ's Glorious return.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Did the Day of the Lord start in the first century as described by Peter in 2 Peter 3?

Heb. 1
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Yes, the Day of the Lord began, ever since Jesus' first manifestation in mortal flesh, whereby God's Grace towards us has been in effect, thus keeping at bay His wrath as shown in 2 Peter 3:7-13, until men no longer repent towards God, through Christ.

2 Peter 3 will come immediately at the end of God's Grace, which was extended through Jesus, for the forgiveness of sin and our salvation.
All of that is still pending, being held in check, until the work of God's plan of salvation through Jesus is completed to the last one of "whosoever believeth".
2 Peter 3
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Please see KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10 for the two places of the words "when", of WHEN 2 Peter 3:7 shall be.

 

[Earburner]

Every time we repent and are forgiven is a second chance, over and over and over so denying the idea of one second chance is ridiculous. Repentance is possible at least until the end of the Millennium then there is a rebellion caused by deceptions, and then judgment day.

Absolutely not. Repentance will no longer be available, after Jesus' sudden manifestation from Heaven.
You are painting gray areas in which to "stand"*, aka being luke warm, neither hot nor cold, so that you can hang on to the Premil view.
* 1 Cor. 2:5

 

[Earburner]

That wouldn't be wrong because AC in the singular is one certain person so in English a "the" is appropriate. It doesn't need to be there but is ok if it is. Antichrist is singular and speaks of one certain man while antichrists plural speak of the many types and shadows of this man and there have been many of them and there are many now but John is specific when he said "antichrist shall come". He isn't speaking of the many or plural there.

The only reference of "antichrist shall come", is "THAT spirit of antichrist", of which is safe to conclude: "that spirit" is in many.

 

[Timtofly]

Actually, it does. There many other doctrines of topic that are incorporated, in order to form the basis for the belief of the Amil or Premil stance.

I'm assuming you are meaning the Adamic dead state of we who are now born again of God's Holy Spirit. To that I agree.
But, as for anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, whether they are physically dead, or are alive at Christ's Glorious return, they are by default "none of His", and shall not continue in any form of life thereafter.

Amen! The last of of the 70 weeks, was that one week, performed by Christ upon the cross, and that of His resurrection and ascension.

Agreed! We who are born again, shall be "changed" into the likeness of His Immortality, in the Day of Christ's return from heaven. However, for those who do not have the Spirit of Christ, they cannot continue to live on in any form of existence. There are no second chances for them.

There is no such thing as an indefinite "here and now". All of it will be destroyed upon the Day of Christ's Glorious return.

Heb. 1
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Yes, the Day of the Lord began, ever since Jesus' first manifestation in mortal flesh, whereby God's Grace towards us has been in effect, thus keeping at bay His wrath as shown in 2 Peter 3:7-13, until men no longer repent towards God, through Christ.

2 Peter 3 will come immediately at the end of God's Grace, which was extended through Jesus, for the forgiveness of sin and our salvation.
All of that is still pending, being held in check, until the work of God's plan of salvation through Jesus is completed to the last one of "whosoever believeth".
2 Peter 3
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Please see KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10 for the two places of the words "when", of WHEN 2 Peter 3:7 shall be.

Why should it matter if Amil don't think there is a second chance in a future millennium?

The point is the end of Adam's flesh at the Second Coming. Pre-mill are wrong that Adam's flesh ends after the millennium, because that is an amil doctrine that Adam's flesh continues throughout this millennium.

It does not. The nations are not in Adam's flesh while Satan is bound. That is the whole point. Adam was deceived corporately about 6,000 years ago. The reason why Satan is bound is to end this deception.

"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more."

Full stop. Deception is the only reason Satan is bound. The nations are currently deceived so as to reject the gift of redemption.

The end of the 70 weeks is declared by the 7th Trumpet. Was the 7th Trumpet sounded the week of the Cross?

The Day of the Lord has not began, because humanity is still deceived and still born into Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The baptism of fire that burns up all the works on earth has never been documented in history. We cannot see God in all His Glory sitting on the GWT. The second birth is still a necessity. The church is still gathering a harvest.

 

[Davy]

Satan's little children love... to create all kinds of false slogans today, and their "second chance" idea is one of them. There simply is NO SUCH THING as a second chance.


Lord Jesus is coming to gather His FAITHFUL Church that will not be deceived. All others will be deceived, and will stand in judgment throughout His "thousand years" reign. That includes... DECEIVED brethren that listened to and trusted in men's doctrines instead of having a love of the Truth in God's Word.

The 2 Thess.2 "strong delusion" Apostle Paul warned for the end of this world is for those who receive not a love for the Truth, meaning a love for what God's Word says instead of what men's doctrines teach.

How then, can those believing brethren that will be deceived at the end, and stand in judgment throughout Christ's future "thousand years" with His elect, be saved then?

It will be because those were DECEIVED, meaning SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS being upon them, that they will stand in judgment when Jesus comes.

So the question actually is, and keeps getting bypassed in this thread is, can a 'spiritually blinded' person BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE for their deception and thus perish in the future "lake of fire" after Christ's "thousand years" reign?


If true, then what would the idea of a 'second chance' in Christ really mean?

For those who haven't read Hebrews 6, I suggest you do so. There Apostle Paul warns about a believer on Christ that has experienced gifts of The Holy Spirit and of the powers of the world to come, but falls away, like later rejecting Jesus Christ. Paul said that one if trying to renew their Salvation would be like crucifying Christ all over again. It does not work. To do such a thing, turn away from Christ after having been given EVIDENCE by The Holy Spirit of their Salvation, that is to commit the UNPARDONABLE SIN...

Matt 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
KJV

The only ones who can commit that unpardonable sin are believers which later reject Christ Jesus after having been given evidence by The Holy Spirit.

Therefore... those DECEIVED at the end, because of being SPIRITUALLY BLINDED, like little children that do wrong in ignorance stand in judgment, will have that SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS removed... at Christ's return.

Because of their SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS, they will NOT be held ACCOUNTABLE for their BEING DECEIVED. Like little children, they will have been deceived out of IGNORANCE.

Apostle Paul says of himself of the time when he persecuted Christ's Church, that he did it in ignorance... and He obtained MERCY from Lord Jesus Christ and was forgiven...

1 Tim 1:12-13
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
KJV

The point then is... THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A 'SECOND CHANCE' THEORY. That false idea is just more of men's doctrines outside of God's Word.

When Jesus returns, the deceived will stand in judgment, and be taught by Christ's elect the difference between the clean and unclean, and the holy vs. the profane. That teaching to the people is one of the duties God's priests. Those who were SPIRITUALLY BLINDED will only THEN come to HEAR THE GOSPEL WITH EYES TO SEE, AND EARS TO HEAR, and only then will be held ACCOUNTABLE for their choice.

Many during this world NEVER HAD THEIR 1ST CHANCE to hear The Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you hear some preacher stand up at the pulpit and say ignorance as if everyone during this world has had a chance to hear The Gospel, then you should know they are just pushing a false doctrine from men's traditions.

During Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect, that... will be a time when those who never heard The Gospel, will hear, and without Satan tempting them. Then those will make their choice to be with The Father and His Son for Eternity, or not.

 

[ScottA]

Jesus, prior to His incarnation into mortal flesh, He was Himself Eternal Holy Spirit with His Father.
But now, since becoming mortal flesh, and then His resurrection into Immortality, He is now Eternal Holy Spirit, with Immortal flesh, being the very "first resurrection" of that which is a "New creature", that had never been before. The firstborn from the dead.

His 3 appearances/manifestations to us, was, is now and shall be:
1. In the likeness of our mortal flesh.
John 1:14.
2. By His Holy Spirit. John 14:23; John 20:19; Acts 9:3-5; Rom. 8:8-9; Rev. 3:20.
3. In His Immortality, upon His Glorious and visible return. 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

In the literal reality of His New Life of Being, Jesus has the ability to be Holy Spirit and/or visible Immortal flesh, at will.

That's not biblical.

God has always had the ability to be anything including "flesh"--it's nothing new. He created all things that are made of matter out of nothing simply by speaking them into existence, manifested angels as men, and rose the dead even before Jesus' resurrection.

What you have stated is not what occurred. Jesus gave His "flesh" to the Church, saying "take, eat, this is my body", then did not commit His flesh to the Father, but only His "spirit." And to be clear, He stated that "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit"--not newly created flesh, but as Paul said, "not that body" at all. And the rest of scripture--the "body returns to the dust (and the spirit to God who gave it)", and all the elements including the dust to which the flesh returns are to be "destroyed with fervent heat and with fire."

Your stated beliefs do not and cannot reconcile with all scripture.

 

[Earburner]

Why should it matter if Amil don't think there is a second chance in a future millennium?

It means that Premil is promoting a lie, that gives people a false hope.
For one to think that God's salvation will continue to be open, after the Glorious return from heaven, even to ALL who will have taken the MoB, is a direct violation of scripture.

The point is the end of Adam's flesh at the Second Coming. Pre-mill are wrong that Adam's flesh ends after the millennium, because that is an amil doctrine that Adam's flesh continues throughout this millennium.

Amil doesn't believe in a literal 1000 years at all.
Amil sees the words of "a thousand years", as being an undisclosed amount of time of God's Grace to all people, that began in the day of Jesus' death and resurrection, and is still ongoing.

It does not. The nations are not in Adam's flesh while Satan is bound. That is the whole point. Adam was deceived corporately about 6,000 years ago. The reason why Satan is bound is to end this deception.

Unfortunately, you have the classic meaning from "church-ianity's" understanding of why, when and how satan is bound.
The Holy Spirit teaches that Satan was "bound" by the Holy shed blood of Christ. Since that time, Satan no longer has access to the throne of God, nor is he able or allowed to re-enter into any of God's born again saints, simply because the Holy Spirit of God has taken up residence within them.
For as long as God's Age of Grace prevails in the world, that is how long satan is bound.

Satan is the author of the "MoB". Once the "mark" is implemented and enforced in the world, it will be a sure sign of him being loosed for 42 months.
Once all the unsaved have been IDENTIFIED, he will set out to give the orders that those who are not identified, that they "SHOULD BE KILLED".

It will be like a role reversal of Cain and his "mark", that was given to him by God.
Those who are marked by satan, are not to be killed, whereas those who are NOT marked, they "should be killed".

"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more."

The "bottomless pit" is nothing more than symbolic language, meaning: "endless grave/death", of which is the entirety of this earth.
The earth has been satan's prison, being that of his only home.
Therefore, with everyone he can muster, he will defend it, armed to the teeth.
Ultimately, he will die in it, and be destroyed along with it, upon Jesus' return from heaven.

Full stop. Deception is the only reason Satan is bound. The nations are currently deceived so as to reject the gift of redemption.

You haven't digested the understanding of who "the strong man" is in three of the gospels, and how Jesus is winning the victory over him day by day, for 2023 years, by taking the "spoils" of war, and barring the fallen angels (demons) from re-entry into their former residences on earth.

The end of the 70 weeks is declared by the 7th Trumpet. Was the 7th Trumpet sounded the week of theHeaven.

Sorry, the 70th week of 7 years was fulfilled by Jesus, when He was in mortal flesh. Then 50 days following, He continued His ministry by His Holy Spirit in Pentecost, nurturing the early church through His disciples, wherein we have their writings of the gospels and the epistles.

The Day of the Lord has not began, because humanity is still deceived and still born into Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The baptism of fire that burns up all the works on earth has never been documented in history. We cannot see God in all His Glory sitting on the GWT. The second birth is still a necessity. The church is still gathering a harvest.

Try to hear this scripture from God's point of view:
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as [like] a thousand years, and a thousand years [is] as [like] one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise [of salvation] as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

>Though Premil has other ideas about how "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years....", so also does the Holy Spirit of God.

He is meaning that God's longsuffering to usward is for us to be repentant and come towards Him, through faith in Jesus.

He is not willing that any should die and remain dead eternally, because if so, they ARE LOST to Him forever, becoming totally irretrievable!!

 

[Earburner]

That's not biblical.

God has always had the ability to be anything including "flesh"--it's nothing new. He created all things that are made of matter out of nothing simply by speaking them into existence, manifested angels as men, and rose the dead even before Jesus' resurrection.

What you have stated is not what occurred. Jesus gave His "flesh" to the Church, saying "take, eat, this is my body", then did not commit His flesh to the Father, but only His "spirit." And to be clear, He stated that "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit"--not newly created flesh, but as Paul said, "not that body" at all. And the rest of scripture--the "body returns to the dust (and the spirit to God who gave it)", and all the elements including the dust to which the flesh returns are to be "destroyed with fervent heat and with fire."

Your stated beliefs do not and cannot reconcile with all scripture.

Then you don't fathom or understand the sacrifice of BOTH God the Father and the Son. John 3:16.
If you are a parent, would you GIVE your ONLY son as a sacrifice, for to SAVE a known "serial killer" from his "reward" of death??