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The "HE" of Daniel 9:27

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Ray, Nov 21, 2012.

  1. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    ANYONE who is for God-given rights He gave to mankind, especially to His Church on earth, ought... to be concerned about Communism, which historically and still is one of the greatest enemies of Christ's Church. Communist-Marxist doctrine specifically PROMOTES atheism.

    And there you are treating it like it's some school boy club.


    We've already been over that ignorant fallacy of the 'brethren' with the attempt to point that only to Israeliites.

    Matt 12:48-50
    48 But He answered and said unto him that told Him, "Who is My mother? and who are My brethren?"
    49 And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, "Behold My mother and My brethren!"
    50 For whosoever shall do the will of My Father Which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother.
    (KJV)


    But I suppose you forgot who you were speaking to with that baloney of brethren means only Jesus' blood-born Israelite brethren.


    The "goats" of Matt.25 are put for ALL unjust wicked peoples, including unbelieving Israelites that refuse Him and do wickedness.


    John 5:28-29
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    (KJV)



    John 8:20-21
    20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
    21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
    (KJV)

    John 8:24
    24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
    (KJV)

    1 Cor 15:17
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    (KJV)



    The future Levites of Ezekiel 44 that will serve in Christ's future Milennium temple on earth, but not be allowed to approach Jesus, are those of God's people that DO believe on The Father, they are NOT atheists nor Communists. If they were Communists then they'd be lying about believing on our Heavenly Father, for no man can serve two masters like Christ Jesus said.

    The parable of the unprofitable servant given in that very same Matt.25 chapter is to show how an Israelite can be cast to the "outer darkness" when Christ returns.

    Jesus spoke of this matter here also with this situation about the faith of a certain Roman centurion who believed on Him...

    Matt 8:5-12
    5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto Him a centurion, beseeching Him,
    6 And saying, "Lord, My servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented."
    7 And Jesus saith unto him, "I will come and heal him."
    8 The centurion answered and said, "Lord, I am not worthy that Thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
    9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, 'Go', and he goeth; and to another, 'Come', and he cometh; and to my servant, 'Do this', and he doeth it."
    10 When Jesus heard it, He marvelled, and said to them that followed, "Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
    11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
    12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    (KJV)


    Right there is a direct example Christ gave between a Gentile that had faith on Him vs. those of blood-born Israel that did not.


    So now, the question comes up about God's promises to restore Israel, right? That restoration for when Christ returns is for the FAITHFUL only, His Church, the Israel of the New Covenant. The full restoration of Israel will not occur until after... Christ's Millennium reign, which will entail those who turn to Christ Jesus and believe on Him 'during' His future Millennium reign.
     
  2. Rocky Wiley

    Rocky Wiley Active Member

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    Ray,

    Amen!
     
  3. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, veteran.

    Well, there you go again. I'm not treating it like some "school boy club," brother, nor am I saying that there's nothing wrong with Communist-Marxism! I only said what I did in answer to your thoughtless remark, "There's quite a few Jews today that don't even believe in God, and are Communists and devil worshippers, just as it is with some Gentiles." I was merely trying to point out that Jews being Communists is not on the same par as Jews not believing in God or being devil worshippers!

    Communism is defined as "a theory or system of social organization based on holding all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community or to the state." Socialism, on the other hand, is defined as "a theory or system of social organization in which the means of production and distribution of goods are owned and controlled collectively or by the government." Of the two, communism best describes the early "church":


    Acts 4:32
    32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common .
    KJV


    Actually ownership of all things was given to the community. There's no one right system of social organization as a government. They are ALL dependent on how well they recognize God's leadership.

    A monarchy can be good as in the reign of the Messiah, or it can be bad as in the reign of King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia!
    An oligarchy can be good as in the control of the priests over Isra'el during the times of the Judges, or it can be bad as in North Korea!
    Socialistic communism can be good as it was during the times of the early church, or it can be bad as it is in Communist China!
    Even a democratic republic can be good as in the United States in the 1700s through the early 1900s, or it can be bad as in the United States from the later 1900s on!

    Their well-being all depends on how well they recognize God's leadership and respond to His commands and wishes, regardless the system of government!
    A country is only as good as its leaders. When the leaders are men of God, the country will prosper and God will bless them. When the leaders of a country have forgotten the true God, the country is doomed to unhappiness and failure.

    Some systems of social organization make it somewhat easier to be sure the country's leaders are men of God, by putting the control of the nation in many hands with checks and balances, but even that breaks down if the majority of the people from which those men are selected are less and less godly!

    One should NEVER put their hopes in a system of social organization, not even our democratic republican system with its capitalism. Whatever form of government we might have, we should always pray that God puts godly men in control of that government and that GOD is ultimately in visual, experiential control! That's the ONLY hope we have!


    Careful, brother, you're getting as bad as teleiosis at putting words in my mouth! Since when did I EVER say "only to Israelites" or "only Jesus' blood-born Israelite brethren"? One thing you need to get straight right away: One of the fundamental tenets of Messianic Judaism is that we are "Jews and Gentiles worshipping God together." If there's any baloney here, it's whatever you've been stuffing yourself with; you're full of it!

    Well, Yochanan records the words of Yeshua` regarding His right to be judge of all, and he has listed for you TWO resurrections over which He will reside: the resurrection of life, which will occur at the beginning of His reign, and the resurrection of damnation or condemnation, which will occur after the first 1000 years of His reign at the Great White Throne Judgment. Yeshua` CAN speak more than once, y'know.

    He simply calls those with whom He wishes to share His Kingdom at the beginning of His reign, and calls the rest later when it's time to sentence them to the Lake of Fire and Burning Sulphur.

    These guys in John 8 were indeed "sons of Beliy`al"; worthless fellows who refused Him as their King, just as Saul and David had to face at the beginnings of their reigns. I've NEVER said that they would receive any special treatment! Nevertheless, there are many in Isra'el who are NOT so guilty and are family to whom Yeshua` will extend His scepter. If you don't like it, too bad! Get over it!

    There you go with that "Communist" worry, again. I'm not a "Commie-lover" or a "Pinkie," but on the other hand, you're generalizing as if to say that ALL Jews are "atheists or Communists." SHAME ON YOU! You would do well to learn who it is that you're bad-mouthing. Your treatment of them may well put YOU in the "goats" category! What you are saying would be tantamount to someone from another country saying that all Americans are "greedy, money-grubbing capitalists who only want more and more!" Is that how YOU see all Americans? or are there many different KINDS of Americans, SOME of which are "greedy capitalists"?

    As for Ezekiel 44, look at it again, WITHOUT your "allegory-colored glasses":

    Ezekiel 44:4-16
    4 Then he brought me through the north gate to the front of the house. I looked, saw Adonai’s glory filling the house of Adonai, and fell on my face. 5 Adonai said to me, “Human being, pay attention; see with your eyes and hear with your ears everything I tell you about all the regulations of Adonai’s house and about all its Torah; pay attention to who can enter the house and who must be excluded from the sanctuary. 6 You are to tell the rebels, the house of Isra’el, that this is what Adonai Elohim says: ‘House of Isra’el, enough of all your disgusting practices! 7 You brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in both heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary and profane it — yes, my house — when you offered my food, the fat and the blood; thus in addition to all your disgusting practices, they broke my covenant. 8 Instead of taking care of my holy things yourselves, you have put these people in charge of my sanctuary.’ 9 Here is what Adonai Elohim says: ‘No foreigner, uncircumcised in both heart and flesh, is to enter my sanctuary — no foreigner living among the people of Isra’el.
    10 “‘Rather, the L’vi’im, who went far away from me when Isra’el went astray, going astray after their idols — they will bear the consequences of their guilt, 11 but they are to serve in my sanctuary. They will have charge of the gates of the house and of serving in the house; they will slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people; and they will attend and serve them. 12 Because they served them in the presence of their idols and became an occasion of sin for the house of Isra’el, I am raising my hand against them,’ says Adonai Elohim, ‘and they will bear the consequences of their guilt. 13 They will not approach me to serve me in the office of cohen or approach any of the holy things or the especially holy things; but they will bear their shame for the disgusting practices they committed. 14 Yet I will put them in charge of the house and all its maintenance and everything to be done in it.
    15 “‘However, the cohanim, who are L’vi’im and descendants of Tzadok, who took care of my sanctuary when the people of Isra’el went astray from me — they are the ones who will approach me and serve me; it is they who will attend me and offer me the fat and the blood,’ says Adonai Elohim. 16 ‘They will enter my sanctuary, approach my table to minister to me and perform my service.'..."
    CJB



    So, these are BOTH children of Isra'el, and they are BOTH of the tribe of Leviy, and they are BOTH serving in the office of cohen or priest! The ONLY place where Gentiles are mentioned at all here are the "foreigners living among the people of Isra’el," especially those who are "uncircumcised in both heart and flesh." Foreigners or Gentiles who ARE circumcised in heart are not included among these foreigners who are banned from the sanctuary.

    Fooey, now I KNOW that you're meshuggah (crazy)! The "Church" is NEVER said to be "the Israel of the New Covenant"! You're too dichotomous for your own good! Quit painting "blood-born Israel" as though they were the bad guys! Y'know, you've just put Peter in that same "blood-born Israel" category which you have in mind! Yeshua` did TOO! Consider this: He said, "I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel!" That included even those within HIS OWN DISCIPLES! This passage is not about "all faith" versus "no faith." It's about DEGREES of trust! This Roman centurion, a captain of a hundred men, understood ranks and privileges. He saw that illnesses were subject to the Messiah; so, he asked the Messiah to heal his servant. He saw the Messiah as being over HIMSELF in rank and considered himself unworthy to give Him adequate accomodations. He saw the Messiah as being the SUPERIOR that He was, and he saw Him as HIS Superior, as well!
     
  4. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, Your words: "One of the fundamental tenets of Messianic Judaism is that we are "Jews and Gentiles worshipping God together."

    On the outside you have the idea of what the "church" is, however, the spiritual aspect, who we are now, is different. We, (the church) are a new creation made up of people who are neither Jew nor Gentile, we are all united as one into the Body of Christ. The Jew or Gentile aspect is one of things from our "old man" that we leave behind. What we were before we came to Christ is irrelevant. What matters is how we as a united "body" are interacting with each other, giving no thought to nationality, financial status, our previous sinful state, boss or slave, etc. None of that matters now as we are all equal before God based solely upon our faith in His completed work.
     
  5. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The fact still is, to refuse Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, and His Blood shed upon the cross, is to still be in one's sins, not covered, and no walk with Him. That applies to unbelieving Israelites of the seed also, not just unbelieving Gentiles.


    That's definitely some propaganda there about Communism.

    Communism's basis is Marxist-Lenninst philosophy, which is empirical materialism. That's why its philosophy basis about relgion is that religion is the 'opiate of the masses'. Moreover, God's laws declare property rights for the individual which is the anti-thesis of Communism.

    Property rights is a New Testament doctrine per Apostle Paul...

    2 Cor 8:7-14
    7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
    8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
    9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
    10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
    11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
    12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
    13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
    14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
    (KJV)


    Giving of alms and sharing with the brethren is not by commandment, per Apostle Paul. It's according to the love of the giver towards poorer brethren, and it's about the ABILITY of the giver to have in order... to give, which means individual property rights.

    Paul had no intention that other men have it easy by that giving, while the giver is burdened.

    It is because of that New Testament doctrine that includes the right to own private property that there has been a horn-of-plenty in the Christian West so as to be able to help the poor. Communism has historically done the opposite with removal of a person's property rights.

    That has then caused the individual to not desire to work as hard, since they know it will be taken away and given to someone else, while many who receive the wealth taken from others have no incentive to work, since it means a free-ride (Paul's "eased") for those. This is why Communism's economic existence has always been dependent upon western economies helping to prop it up, even as was done on a larger scale once the Berlin Wall was taken down.

    What Communism does is declare it's unlawful ownership over 'everything', including the individual person, and not only what an individual owns. Per Communism's history it specifically burdens the people by taking from them what they have worked for and using it to support its own system, and for those who refuse to work. Communism historically has not only siezed people's private property like their homes and farms, but told them what kind of work they had to do, how many children they could have, what kind of beliefs they must have, and shackled their travel, etc. And they have a long history of persecuting Christ's Church, even with closing down Churches that don't follow 'their' version of the state-run Church. Stalin closed the Churches in Russia and turned them into graineries.

    In early America at Jamestown, at the start they used Communism's type of socialist philosophy that no matter how hard one worked, everyone would receive the same. People died for lack of food. The next year they changed to the Biblical principles of ownership and rights to buy or sell or give away what excess one produced. That next year there was an abundance, and no one starved.


    The fact you believe that system of Communist philosophy could ever be allied with God's Word reveals severe problems.


    Trying to compare Communist philosophy with Christian principles per God's Word is deception. You have been grossly deceived.


    When Christ returns, the system of government on earth will be a Monarchy, the system which Russia had prior to Communists murdering the monarchs in 1917 that God divinely had over it. Czar Nicolaus II and Alexandria were descendents from Queen Victoria of Great Britain.

    Communism also has a terrible history of murdering its own citizens for not agreeing to Communist doctrine. Cambodia's Pol Pot murdered millions after the Vietnam conflict, just as Vietnamese Communists did also. Same thing in Red China, Soviet Russia, Cuba, etc. The reason for those atrocities is not because of certain evil men who propose to do them; it's because the system of Communism supports the destruction of those who are against it, just like Islam declares destruction of the infidel who refuses to convert to Islam. So Communist philosophy is not just some simple social philosophy, it is a type of religion, an opiate unto itself.

    That history is not just going to go away. It will be remembered by all... later generations, for there will always be remnants of peoples that had relatives that suffered under that system. And you claim that philosophy and acts in association with Christianity? You have gone off the deep end.


    Judaism has NOTHING to do with Christian Doctrine, and YOU need to be careful about that. Judaism is the "Jew's religion" which Apostle Paul himself admitted that he was deceived by...

    Gal 1:13-14
    13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
    14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
    (KJV)


    If the "Jews religion" (Judaism) caused Apostle Paul to persecute and waste Christ's Church, then how can you infer Judaism could ever be a part of Christianity??? Your statements simply reveal just how deceived you are, and what you've chosen to follow. (And I kind of knew all along while you've been here on this forum).

    Judaism today recognizes a messiah, but not the same Messiah that Christians recognize.


    Not how the John 5:28-29 Scripture reads, the "resurrection of damnation" occurs at the SAME TIME of Christ's coming as the "resurrection of life" does, as written there. And the "goats" separated on the left hand in Matt.25 represent those of the "resurrection of damnation" at the time of Christ's return, which is at the start... of Christ's future thousand years reign. You can try and refute the Scripture evidence for that in my previous post all you want, but it won't change that Truth within God's Word.


    I recognize that some Messianic Jews today think the resurrection is a raising of the flesh, and others remain in the grave after Christ's return. It's not according to Paul in 1 Cor.15, for he said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. ALL will be resurrected at Christ's coming, per the John 5:28-29 Scripture. But not all will have put on immortality through Christ Jesus by that.


    Those scribes and Pharisees of John 8 refused Christ, and they were historically made up of foreigners of the Canaanite peoples and others from the "house of Judah". Apostle Paul, a Jew born of the tribe of Benjamin was once one of those. Yet Paul showed he believed in our Heavenly Father whole-heartedly, as 'some' of those most likely also did, but did not have a case of divine intervention like Paul did. Christ equated those in John 8 with the sons of Cain, the first murderer, and linked them with followers of the devil. Rightly so, since the scribes of Israel came from the Kenites of the Canaanite nations (1 Chronicles 2:55).

    Those false ones, crept in unawares, is one of the problems the faithful among the Jews still have today. They don't realize that creeping in of foreigners of the old nations of Canaan per history, and thus they are blinded to inner workings by those to cause corruption, which is how the original beliefs of Israel through Moses became corrupted later, during the Babylon captivity of Judah.


    I'm not generalizing, but that's probably what you'd like others here to think, which is nothing but a political ploy. Nor can you find where I said all Jews were Communists, etc. so SHAME ON YOU for bearing that particular false witness!!!

    I well know who God's Word is speaking about with the "goats" Jesus will separate from His at His return. It's easy; it's those who do wickedness and don't have their sins covered because of refusing Him!!

    But will some... of the "goats" convert to Christ Jesus during His Milennium reign? Yes, as that was Apostle Paul's hope, and mine too (Acts 24:15).


    Christ's promise in Revelation about His servants who remain faithful ruling with Him as priests and kings is NOT solely about those born of Israel. Surely you don't want me to post all the New Testament Scripture where that very matter was spoken to Gentile believers by Christ and His Apostles, for there are many. The name 'Zadok' means 'the Just', and that is specifically put for Christ's faithful servants, of BOTH believing Israelites and believing Gentiles. Just as The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant, making a change, likewise the Zadok will also be made up of believing Gentiles. But they will be counted... as Levites, just as believing Gentiles are counted... as spiritual Israel per Paul in Romans 9.


    Believing Gentiles are part of the "commonwealth of Israel" according to Apostle Paul...

    Eph 2:11-13
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    (KJV)
     
  6. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson (and you, too, veteran):

    Please pay attention to this: The "new creation" does NOT create a dichotomy! It does NOT make "believers who are neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ" and "unbelievers who are neither Jew nor Gentile outside of Christ." The second half is the REAL problem in you belief system of what constitutes the "church." While the first half - namely, "believers who are neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ" - is true, THE SECOND HALF - namely, "unbelievers who are neither Jew nor Gentile outside of Christ" - IS NOT TRUE!

    The question was asked, "What advantage then hath the Jew?" To hear you guys talk, you'd think the answer was "None," but that's NOT what we read:

    Romans 3:1-2
    1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
    2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
    KJV


    They are "the people of the Book!" Outside of Christ, there is STILL A DIFFERENCE between Isra'eli and Gentile! It is THIS fact to which you have been blinded that clouds your judgment and distorts your world-view! Although no one says it out loud, the thought is IMPLIED that there's no difference between Isra'el and the Gentiles outside of the Messiah, and you won't find that in Scripture ANYWHERE!

    Thus, it's not TWO groups of people; it's THREE groups! The believers, the unbelieving (as yet) Isra'elis, and the unbelieving Gentiles, and the Messiah's KIngdom will NOT just be populated by those who are currently believers only; it will be populated by both the current believers and the Isra'elis, who will BECOME believers when the Messiah arrives and rescues them as predicted He will do! The promises to national Isra'el are still THEIRS!
     
  7. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    That's not what the Bible says.

    Zec 8:23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.' "

    Those are not believers.
     
  8. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, teleiosis.

    So? That only serves to prove my point! The "ten people from all languages and nations" are the unbelieving Gentiles. The "one Jew" is a member of the group of Isra'elis that is now a subject of the Messiah's Kingdom. The Gentile and Isra'eli believers are now one, and Gentile believers are now part of His Kingdom of Isra'el! It's not that difficult. So, how can you conclude, "That's not what the Bible says"?

    By the way, the ten unbelieving Gentiles would be part of those "sheep" nations, while those from other nations more hostile to the Messiah and His Kingdom, as in Psalm 2, would be the "goat" nations.
     
  9. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, I know you don't want to believe that unsaved Israel isn't special anymore but it's the reality. In your Rom. 3 verses you didn't go far enough, so to take a chapter from your book, read on and pay attention to the highlighted parts.

    Rom. 3:9-30 - "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
    14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
    15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
    16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
    17 And the way of peace have they not known:
    18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
    19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
    29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
    30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."

    Yes, you must come to realize this very important fact. Without faith in Christ, NO ONE will enter into heaven. I'm sorry brother but you are wrong in this area. As we become a new creature inside the Messiah, those outside the Messiah are all one as well, sinners on their way to judgment be they Jew or Gentile.

    I wanted to add one more thing. The very fact that they rec'd the "oracles of God" condemns them because they point the way to Christ all the way through. So instead of acknowledging that fact, they make a concious decision to eliminate Is. 53 from their "word". All Jews have the opportunity, no, the duty to find out Why!
     
  10. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Retrobyter is failing to read this about the unbelieving seed of Israel when Christ Jesus returns...


    Matt 8:10-12
    10 When Jesus heard it, He marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
    11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
    12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    (KJV)


    The "children of the kingdom" Christ says that about is put for the unbelievers of the seed of Israel, because at that point Christ Jesus had come specifically to offer those only the Kingdom. The unbelieving Israelites refused, and had Him executed instead while claiming... to do that under authority within God's Law!

    That reveals when our Lord Jesus returns, those unbelievers of Israel, in all countries, will be cast to the place Jesus called "the outer darkness". That is outside His "camp of the saints" of Rev.20, outside the "beloved city" (Rev.22:14-15). Only those of them which convert to Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ during His thousand years reign will be graffed back into their 'own' natural branch.

    So to WHICH seed of Israel indeed is... God's Promises through His prophets about their future restoration under Christ Jesus specifically meant for? To believing Israel, along with believing Gentiles.

    Just as Apostle Paul showed in Rom.11 about unbelieving Israelites, they are cut off if they stay in unbelief, but graffed back into their own tree if they do not remain in unbelief. This HOW our Heavenly Father is NO respecter of persons, while also giving His Promise of Salvation first through Israel. This is why Paul taught in Rom.11:1-5 how God preserved a 'remnant' of believing Israel unto Himself, Paul calling them a remnant according to the election of grace.


    Retrobyter is the product of a lifetime of teachings that originate from the same "Jews religion" that had blinded Apostle Paul prior to Christ converting Paul. He is the result of his station of birth mainly, under their influence and direction.
     
  11. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, guys.

    Look, I've not "failed" to read anything in the Scriptures, nor did I stop believing them in their entirety. HOWEVER, you need to know that there are Scriptures to which YOU haven't listened, starting with the REST of the treatise of Paul to the Romans.

    Trekson, I discontinued the reading early BECAUSE I didn't want you to "muddy the waters" with your interpretation of the following verses. Just the same, now that you've opened that can of worms, why did YOU stop with verse 30? Why didn't YOU keep going? Indeed, not just verse 31, but chapter 4 and on into chapters 9 through 11 all the way to chapter 16! It's all one treatise, y'know.

    Furthermore, I think it bears looking into the Greek because our definition of "without" has changed somewhat over the last 400 years. Most of the time, when you see the word "without" in the KJV, you can substitute the words "outside of." When verse 28 says, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT the deeds of the law," the Greek word that was translated as "without" is "chooris," meaning "at a space," "separately," or "apart from," according to Strong's. Thus, the phrase could be rendered "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the Law (the Torah)." Thus, it is not that we don't NEED the Torah anymore; rather, it's that NO ONE has EVER needed it for justification by faith, for since Avraham justification has ALWAYS been from the righteousness of God apart from the rituals of the Torah! And, the whole point about Avraham in the next chapter is to show that they never DID need the Torah for justification by faith! It's never been the "deeds of the Law" or the "rituals of the Torah" that has justified a man! It's the righteousness of God apart from the Torah that justifies a man! So, even Judaism has known that God's justification of a person is separate and apart from the rituals of the Law! That's why they were not devastated by the loss of the Temple and their dispersion into other countries!

    The point YOU need to discover is that "faith in Christ" is "faith in the Messiah." What does that mean? Furthermore, who had "faith in the Messiah" first? Who wrote Isaiah 52 and 53 and who wrote Psalm 22? Who wrote the very Scriptures that Paul quoted in his epistles? And, is it possible to have "faith in the Messiah" without knowing who the Messiah was/is? I'm reminding you that God can justify WHOMEVER He chooses to justify, even if they don't know His Son, just as He justified Avraham, Mosheh, Daviyd, Yirmeyahu, and Yeshayahu before Yeshua` the Messiah was ever born! What did Yeshua` Himself say?

    Luke 18:9-14
    9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
    10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
    11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
    12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
    13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
    14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
    KJV

    So, justification by God has NEVER been about whether you were an Isra'eli or a Gentile! But, that's not what makes the Isra'elis, particularly the Jews, special! It's because they are His FAMILY! Furthermore, they are special because God loved the Patriarchs and continues to love their children, ad infinitum! Or have you forgotten the rest of Paul's treatise so quickly?

    Veteran, you don't know what you're talking about, especially when you said, "Retrobyter is the product of a lifetime of teachings that originate from the same "Jews religion" that had blinded Apostle Paul prior to Christ converting Paul. He is the result of his station of birth mainly, under their influence and direction." I was born the son of a Baptist minister. He was a "Fundamental, Premillennial, Independent, Fellowship Baptist" preacher, who taught pretribulational rapturism. My lineage is mostly German on my father's side, but my mother was English, Irish, French, Sioux, and some Jew! (And, yes, I loved the chorus "Jesus Loves the Little Children"; I felt VERY connected when I sang that verse, "English, Irish, French and Jew, even little Italians, too. Jesus loves the little children of the world," although I couldn't claim Italian.) According to my grandmother, my mother's mother's mother was fully Jewish, but I can't prove it. I was justified by God at the early age of 6 and baptized shortly thereafter. It wasn't until I was well over 40 that I "converted" and became a Messianic Jew. And, while I am a Messianic Jew by CHOICE, I consider myself to be of the tribe of Y'hudah BECAUSE of Yeshua`s blood in me through the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) and His adoption! So, tell me again about my "station of birth," my "influence and direction"? Tell me again about the "same 'Jew's religion' that had blinded Apostle Paul" prior to his "conversion?"

    Furthermore, Paul was NOT "converted" on the road to Damassek (Damascus). He was a zealous Jew for God, but he had never had a formal introduction to the Messiah until he was knocked down on that road. He didn't KNOW that Yeshua` was indeed the Messiah and was indeed God's Son! Once introduced, he had some thinking to do and he had to change his mind about the Messiah Yeshua`, but He was through and through ever a religious, zealous Jew! And, just as zealously as he fought AGAINST the teachings about Yeshua` being the Messiah before His introduction, He fought just as zealously FOR Yeshua` being the Messiah after His introduction! Consider his words:

    Romans 9:1-13
    9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
    2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
    3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
    4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
    9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
    10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
    KJV


    Take note, too, as to why he said, "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" and "neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children." He was not talking about the inclusion of the Gentiles here; he was talking about the exclusion of Ishma'el, his other brothers, and the exclusion of Esav! They, the children of Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), are the children of the promise! And, the promise, said he, is "At this time will I come, and Sarah (who was already 86) shall have a son!"

    Romans 11:26-29
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    KJV


    Romans 15:8-12
    8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
    9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
    10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
    11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
    12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
    KJV


    So, Yeshua` was a "root of Yishai (Jesse)," and "Adoniy (my lord//master/sire)" to Daviyd, that would also reign over the Gentiles! And, why would the Gentile trust Him? Simply because He will be TRUSTWORTHY or FAITHFUL or RELIABLE! He will make good on His promises!

    Oh, and about my "propaganda," Veteran, I agree whole-heartedly that we have a superior form of government; HOWEVER, all I'm saying is that government alone can't cut it! One absolutely MUST have faithful (see above), godly, God-fearing men in office or even the best form of government will be to no avail. And, when Yeshua` is reigning as King of Isra'el and then King of kings, as one by one they either ask to be His subjects or they are conquered as such, HIS government - a monarchy - will be FAR superior to our own!
     
  12. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, Your words: "Trekson, I discontinued the reading early BECAUSE I didn't want you to "muddy the waters" with your interpretation of the following verses. Just the same, now that you've opened that can of worms, why did YOU stop with verse 30? Why didn't YOU keep going? Indeed, not just verse 31, but chapter 4 and on into chapters 9 through 11 all the way to chapter 16! It's all one treatise, y'know."

    I didn't keep going because it's all the same. You can't find one verse that says anyone is justified without faith without misinterpreting what was written. It's that simple.

    Your verses: "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

    When will Christ take away their sin? When they by faith accept Him as their Messiah and call Him Lord! It ain't gonna happen any other way!
     
  13. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    And, I mostly agree with you, but I can only say "mostly" because you haven't yet seen that "all Isra'el" shall be a nation "born at once" when they SEE the Messiah coming, as predicted, and rescuing them from their enemies! "Seeing is believing!"

    Isaiah 66:5-16
    5 Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at his word; your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the Lord be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
    6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
    9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
    10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
    11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
    12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
    13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
    14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
    15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
    16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.
    KJV


    What does that mean, "shall the earth be made to bring forth"? I believe that it has to do with the RESURRECTION!

    What about Yechezk'el's vision?

    Ezekiel 37:1-14
    1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
    2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
    3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
    4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
    5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
    6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
    7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
    8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
    9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
    10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
    11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
    12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
    13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
    14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
    KJV


    Do you think that's just a "figure of speech," or could he be talking about a LITERAL resurrection?!

    What about this passage? Do you think this is just a "figure of speech?"

    Hosea 6:1-3
    6 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
    2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
    3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
    KJV


    And, Zechariah 12? Have you read it in relationship to the genealogy of Yeshua` in Luke 3?

    Zechariah 12:7-14
    7 Adonai will save the tents of Y’hudah first,

    so that the glory of the house of David
    and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
    will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
    8 When that day comes, Adonai will defend
    those living in Yerushalayim.
    On that day, even someone who stumbles
    will be like David;
    and the house of David will be like God,
    like the angel of Adonai before them.

    9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
    all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
    10 and I will pour out on the house of David
    and on those living in Yerushalayim
    a spirit of grace and prayer;
    and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”

    They will mourn for him
    as one mourns for an only son;
    they will be in bitterness on his behalf
    like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
    11 When that day comes, there will be
    great mourning in Yerushalayim,
    mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
    in the Megiddo Valley.
    12 Then the land will mourn,
    each family by itself —
    the family of the house of David by itself,
    and their wives by themselves;
    the family of the house of Natan by itself,
    and their wives by themselves;
    13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
    and their wives by themselves;
    the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
    and their wives by themselves;
    14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
    and their wives by themselves.
    CJB


    Luke 3:23-38
    23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
    24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
    25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
    26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
    27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
    28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
    29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
    30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
    31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
    32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
    33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
    34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
    35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
    36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
    37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
    38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
    CJB


    (I used the Complete Jewish Bible to show that the names are the same.) As seen in Luke, these names are VERTICALLY connected in Yeshua`s family tree! That's why they could ALL mourn for Him as either an "ONLY son" or as a "FIRSTBORN son!" How could that happen that they could ALL look upon "the One who was pierced" at the same time and mourn for Him? The answer is that this mourning is done AFTER their resurrection!

    I am THOROUGHLY convinced that Yeshua` will not only raise believers back to life, but will also raise Isra'elites back to life at the same time! The nation WILL be "born at once!" "Born again!"
     
  14. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    Veteran, Whenever I write that Israel will not accept the Beast's Mark or the Jesus will fight for Israel, do not take it as though I believe not a single Jew will fall victim to Satan... I am generalizing... and Hi

    Trekon wrote: " When will Christ take away their sin? When they by faith accept Him as their Messiah and call Him Lord! It ain't gonna happen any other way! "

    I am in total agreement with you here Trekson! and... Hi

    Retrobter wrote " Oh, and about my "propaganda," Veteran, I agree whole-heartedly that we have a superior form of government; HOWEVER, all I'm saying is that government alone can't cut it! One absolutely MUST have faithful (see above), godly, God-fearing men in office or even the best form of government will be to no avail. And, when Yeshua` is reigning as King of Isra'el and then King of kings, as one by one they either ask to be His subjects or they are conquered as such, HIS government - a monarchy - will be FAR superior to our own! "

    I stand in total agreement with you here Retrobyter and... Hi

    As I was walking to St Ives, I met a man with several wives, each wife had several kids, each kid had several cats.... I think he must have been a Muslim.
     
  15. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Hi, terry, and shalom!

    LOL! Are you making a connection between Muslims and cats? I think cats might be offended!
     
  16. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, Your words: “And, I mostly agree with you, but I can only say "mostly" because you haven't yet seen that "all Isra'el" shall be a nation "born at once" when they SEE the Messiah coming, as predicted, and rescuing them from their enemies! "Seeing is believing!"

    One would think that would be the case, however, historically, Israel has proven otherwise. They saw the Red Sea part yet the first thing that did while Moses was away was build a golden idol. They saw manna come from heaven and birds drop from the sky and water come from a rock, yet they couldn’t trust God enough to enter the Promised Land. They saw miraculous victories from God’s hand yet still wanted an earthly king. They survived a 70 yr. captivity, watched as God kept His word, yet were still unconcerned about building God His proper house. (Hag. 1:4)

    Just don’t forget Rev. 12:5 - “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” The “all nations” includes Israel.

    Your words: “What does that mean, "shall the earth be made to bring forth"? I believe that it has to do with the RESURRECTION!”

    I disagree. I don’t think it has anything to do with a resurrection. Yes, the nation of Israel will again, in a manner of speaking, be birthed in a day, but a resurrection doesn’t have to happen for that to occur.

    Your words: “What about Yechezk'el's vision? Do you think that's just a "figure of speech," or could he be talking about a LITERAL resurrection?!”

    Ezekiel 37:11-14
    11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
    12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
    14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD
    .”

    Yes, in this case, I believe it is a “figure of speech” and while it may have latter day significance (1948?), I believe it is speaking first and foremost when they are brought out of their 70 yr. Babylonian captivity. They didn’t “all” go into captivity. Many of the poor were left on the land and many went to Egypt. 1 Kings 25:24-26.

    Your words: “What about this passage? Do you think this is just a "figure of speech?" Hosea 6:1-3

    Yes, very similar to Ez. 37.

    Your words: “And, Zechariah 12? Have you read it in relationship to the genealogy of Yeshua` in Luke 3?
    (I used the Complete Jewish Bible to show that the names are the same.) As seen in Luke, these names are VERTICALLY connected in Yeshua`s family tree! That's why they could ALL mourn for Him as either an "ONLY son" or as a "FIRSTBORN son!" How could that happen that they could ALL look upon "the One who was pierced" at the same time and mourn for Him? The answer is that this mourning is done AFTER their resurrection!
    I am THOROUGHLY convinced that Yeshua` will not only raise believers back to life, but will also raise Isra'elites back to life at the same time! The nation WILL be "born at once!" "Born again!"

    As I said before, I believe this is speaking of the physical descendants alive at that time. God knows who they are. You forgot one: Is 26:19 - “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.”

    This is how I see it. The OT saints were resurrected with Christ, Matt. 27:52-53, thus joining with Christ as the “firstfruits” of the first resurrection. The future resurrection will consist of the latter day fruits yet also of the first resurrection. The second resurrection will be for the GWTJ. Remember, though that not all of OT Israel are “saints”. Just those who had the faith of Abraham and who worshipped God and obeyed the law accordingly, the righteous remnant of those past generations.

    So “they” will have already done their mourning and God has wiped away the tears from their eyes. It’s the living who will mourn as they are the ones who will “see” what and to whom they, as a nation, have treated most dishonorably.

    The resurrected OT saints will have no need of an earthly millennium. They already have a better home in heaven. With the exception of a few notable persons like David, Joshua and Zerabubbel, I don’t know if the majority will rule and reign on earth as was promised to some of the church. The point is, there is a better alternative than the earthly millennium as a “final” destination. The millennium sounds like a great place for the living, not so great for the eternal, as we will be. We, “all resurrected/raptured saints” won’t need to be ruled with a “rod of iron”… the living will!

    As an aside, remember when we were discussing how the bible was written and you believe it was pleniary (sp?) and I said I disagreed because there were too many minor discrepancies. Here is one that I don't believe if it was "dictated" by God would occur. 2 Kings 24:8 - Jehoachin was 18 when he took the throne, however in 2 Chron. 36:9, it says he was 8. Not a big deal, but not a "typo" either as I believe most KJV bibles translate it the same way. Does yours? My AMP and NIV "changed" it but with "notes".
     
  17. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom, Trekson.

    Actually, I believe that the woman IS Isra'el. The symbolism that is found in the description of the woman reflects back to Yosef's dreams and the imagery regarding his father, Isra'el, his step-mother, him and his brothers. I believe the "all nations" are how the Greek is translated in other passages: "panta ta ethnee" e.g., Acts 13:42-48.

    Revelation 12:1
    12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    KJV


    Genesis 37:9-10
    9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
    10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
    KJV


    Acts 13:42-48
    42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
    43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
    44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
    45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
    46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
    47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
    KJV

    Wherever you see the word "Gentiles" as opposed to the "Jews," it is the same word "ethnee," the plural of "ethnos."

    It does if the families mentioned in Zechariah 12 are to be together! You just don't WANT to believe it could be the resurrection! Be honest!

    No, sir. This passage in Yechezk'el's prophecy has nothing to do with the 70-year Captivity! Again, you are merely resisting the normal interpretation of that passage! WHY?!

    No, you're not listening (reading) what Hoshea said! The whole prophecy is about how God will NOT allow them to return after the 70-year captivity! They will return, but not at all for years to come! Read through the whole prophecy from chapter 1 through chapter 14. It's not a long book. You will find that it is about 95% concerning Isra'el as the 10 Northern Tribes and not about Y'hudah. They did NOT return after the Captivity!

    Heavens, NO! There's no such thing as a "better home in heaven!" The Scriptures do not talk about a "home in heaven!" You MUST do a word study on "heaven," "heavens," heavenly" and "heavenlies," and get to the root of the problem by studying out the Greek words in particular and how those various Greek words differ! We'll travel THROUGH the "heavens" or through the "skies" to get to our destination, but they are NOT our destination themselves! And, Isra'el - as new believers in their Messiah - won't NEED to be "ruled with a rod of iron!" They are NOT included in those "Gentile nations."

    The word is "plenary" and means "full" or "complete." The Bible WAS "plenary verbally" inspired of God; EVERY WORD of the Bible was inspired of God. The key is that this is true ONLY for the original autographs! Just because there may be some transmission errors through all the copying that the scribes have done down through the years does NOT detract from this inspiration. That only goes to show that the various later manuscripts that we have - even our oldest ones - are corrupted by human error. Nevertheless, we have sufficient copies, both with errors and without, to reason how the original autographs were written. Textual criticism is a method by which we ascertain what was originally written. (This is not to be confused with hypercriticism which attempts to CORRECT the text, particularly when it makes reference to the miracles of God.) So, actually that "transmission error" IS a "typo" (before there were typewriters)! It was a MISTAKE, not in the original, inspired text but in the COPYING of that text! Someone forgot to write the "and ten" part (Hebrew: `esreeh), and the error was perpetuated in subsequent copies! It's not a big deal because the Scriptures has its own "checks and balances" in the multiple records of 2 Chronicles and 2 Kings.
     
  18. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, I too believe the woman of Rev. 12 is Israel, however, that doesn't mean one of the nations ruled with a rod of iron won't be Israel.

    Your words: "It does if the families mentioned in Zechariah 12 are to be together! You just don't WANT to believe it could be the resurrection! Be honest!"

    What I want is irrelevant, what is important is the proper interpretation of prophetic scriptures. One of the main reasons I don't believe this passage is speaking of a resurrection is because of the use of the word "families". If it just said the name of the men who families are mentioned, then they, the heads of households would probably be resurrected, however, the use of "families" to most reasonable bible students would lead to "descendants", certainly not the resurrection of the whole line. Without researching the history of all the names listed, I am only presuming here, I would say they are most likely part of the "saved" of Israel, thus they themselves have no need to mourn while their genetic offspring would.

    Your words: "No, sir. This passage in Yechezk'el's prophecy has nothing to do with the 70-year Captivity! Again, you are merely resisting the normal interpretation of that passage! WHY!"

    I believe it proper exegesis to see if a near time prophecy is in sight in any prophecy. Considering Ezekial's prophecies are 25 yrs. into the captivity, the people would want to hear promising things about "their" future, not generations thousands of years away and that is the main reason Israel didn't accept Christ. They expected "all" prophecy to be fulfilled in the Messiah's lifetime. While we know through hindsight that many of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled, the people to whom they were given had no such expectation.

    After reading through Hosea, I still don't believe it's about a typical resurrection. As Ezekial's cp. 37 prophecy also has a future fulfillment (1948) for Judah, not a resurrection, imo. This is that same type of prophecy given to Israel, about their future restoration to the "united" nation of Israel as foretold by the two-sticks of Ez. 37.

    Your words: "Heavens, NO! There's no such thing as a "better home in heaven!"

    I respectfully disagree. I gotta admit, I'd be pretty disappointed if earth was all there was, but by faith and by reading scripture as written, imo, there is way more evidence concerning it's existence than there is to deny it.

    Your words: "And, Isra'el - as new believers in their Messiah - won't NEED to be "ruled with a rod of iron!" They are NOT included in those "Gentile nations."

    You really do live in a land of sunshine and lollipops regarding Israel don't you. History repeats itself and part of Israel will be the first to rebel at the end of the Mill., imo. God calls them a "stiff-necked" people and that ain't gonna change, it's part of their DNA. Considering their history, I believe the "rod of iron" will be first and foremost for Israel and then the rest of the gentile nations.
     
  19. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    Trek: there are a whole class of people who think we're going to live on the earth during the Millennium in imperishable, immortal bodies, right next to those who are still mortal and have perishable bodies. However, difficult such a logistical and social problem that would be in real life never occurs to them. These people come to their conclusion as a matter of belief and not by any firm Scripture spelling out such a state. They think that after all the desolations God inflicts upon the earth to decimate mankind to near nothing in number that this is going to be heaven on earth. Nothing further from the truth can be.

    In Isaiah 4, those who survive, will be ragged and barely alive. They will have suffered through thick and thin and like so many stories I hear, women can bare this better than men and pull through, and in the end, they will outnumber men. That's not surprising, men tend to live dangerously and they are combatants and able to fight. Thus they also make for targets of other men, who in their conquest seek women as a prize. We are not that far removed from barbarism...

    But a bunch of "last-day" adherents see the Sheep and Goat separation as dividing out those who enter the Millennium. They see themselves coming back with Jesus on the clouds (1Th 3:13) and conquering the anti-Christ. That is an ego-feeding proposition and that idea actually takes away from the glory of Christ. He doesn't need billions of ordinary souls, His Bride for crying out loud, to take on hundreds of millions of armed soldiers at Armageddon if Gideon is any example of what God can do with his mighty arm (a positive use of gabar).

    I look at the third Heaven of God the Father's presence as being more real than this world. As the Temple is a copy of the pattern shown in Heaven, the original, or truth is in Heaven. This world is a microcosm for it. Can you imagine a Temple big enough to hold a Great Multitude of people who out-number ten thousand times ten thousand Angels? The fact is that we are bound by our frame of perception and for most of us, that's pretty small.
    _________________________

    The ones coming on the clouds of Heaven with Jesus (termed just "Holies" in the Greek) are the resurrected Dead in Christ from the first Heaven of Paradise. In an "observer-true" point of view, Paul describes what one of the Elect who is still alive and remains until the Last Day (the Day of the Lord, not the last day of the one 'seven') would see.

    We are removed from the field of this world and taken as the wheat Harvest of the Rapture to the safety of the barn of Heaven in God's Temple. That Temple is even shut during the worst of God's Wrath so that no one can come in or out.

    When Jesus goes out (with the 144,000 who never leave His side) He is cheered on by a Great Multitude. We do not battle the forces of the world. We cheer our Champion on!

    The separation of the Sheep and Goats of Mt 25 happens at the end of the Millennium. This is in line with the Great White Throne Judgment. It also matches the second parable of Mt 13 with the net analogy. It also matches Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29.

    Our final home will not "work" with the laws of physics in play in this world. However, it is the perfect form for what was proportioned in the Holy of Holies originally - the 15 by 15 by 15 cubit room which contained God's presence in the first Tents of Meeting before a Temple was built by Solomon. Eventually, we will live where only the High Priest could go but that place will be on a scale unimaginable by our frame of reference. (If you would go "up" 1500 miles from the face of the earth, you'd be past even those satellites in geo-synchronic orbit.)
     
  20. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    This thread was buried for a while; so, I missed it. Let me continue...

    This is an unfortunate belief that you have about Isra'el. The reason why they are in such disbelief right now is BECAUSE of Christians and that the Messiah has NOT yet returned! When the Messiah comes AS PROMISED and rescues national Isra'el, all doubt will be gone! They will learn who the Messiah is, and they will understand their own history and how they mistreated Him when He came the first time! They will understand that those whom they THOUGHT were "Christians," in fact were NOT! You really have a sour opinion of Isra'el to the point that you have dared to "touch God's people, the apple (the pupil) of His eye!" Not a good idea! Can't you understand the relationship that God and His Messiah will have with His people?

    Deuteronomy 32:9-10
    9 For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
    10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.
    KJV


    Zechariah 2:3-8
    3 And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him,
    4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:
    5 For I, saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
    6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.
    7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
    8 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
    KJV


    Jeremiah 31:31-37
    31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah (NOT with the Gentiles!):
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
    35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
    36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
    37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
    KJV


    Evangelization will no longer be necessary among the Isra'elis! They will ALL know the LORD!

    And, why not the "resurrection of the whole line"? Are they not all grandparents to the Messiah, however many "greats" removed? Your rejection of this revelation is nonsensical. What gives you the right to say that 'the use of "families" to most reasonable Bible students would lead to "descendants"?' I think your idea of what is "reasonable" is questionable! They DO have a need to mourn! Wouldn't you mourn if your beautiful grandson was so bruised, marred and maimed so senselessly?!

    Well, THAT'S being short-sighted! You THINK that Yechezk'el's prophecy is about "promising things about 'their' future, not generations thousands of years away," and yet you believe that "EzekiEL's chapter 37 prophecy also has a future fulfillment (1948) for Judah"? Isn't that just a little hypocritical? (Oh, and it's "EzekiEL," not "Ezekial." "EL" is Hebrew for "GOD!" You may be a "serious student of God's Word," but you're not a CAREFUL student!)

    Nah, there is NO evidence regarding "Heaven's" existence, especially biblical evidence! And, you WON'T be disappointed in either the Kingdom during the Millennium nor in the New Earth with its New Sky and its capital city, the New Jerusalem. It will STILL far exceed your greatest imaginations!

    And, why not? It WILL be a Land of Sonshine and lollipops regarding Isra'el, "the apple of His eye," in which "ALL will know Him!" Sure their history of being a "stiff-necked" people will change! It's NOT related to their DNA or it would also be a part of the Messiah Himself! No, regardless their history, they ALL will come to know Him, and they will rest under their own vine or fig tree in full trust of their Hero!

    Micah 4:1-4
    1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
    2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
    3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
    4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.
    KJV


    Zechariah 3:7-10
    7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
    8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
    9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes (Hebrew: `eeynaayim, seven lines each beginning with an `ayin, the 16th letter of the Hebrew alefbet): behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
    10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
    KJV
     
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