The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity

[Jack]

It appears from your reply you haven't met The Man!

I'm here to defend our Bible as the written word of God. Why are you here?

 

[St. SteVen]

If someone really believes in Hell it may well lead them to salvation. No Hell? No reason to repent.

Psalm 111:10
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;

Right. (not)
Why else would anyone want a relationship with God, except to escape him. (not)
There is no benefit to a relationship with God in this lifetime, correct? Say what?
After all, Jesus died to save us from God, right? (not)

The hell doctrine and the use of fear of eternal punishment is spiritual extortion.
Thus turning our loving heavenly Father into a gangster godfather, making us an offer we can't refuse.

 

[quietthinker]

I'm here to defend our Bible as the written word of God. Why are you here?

I'm here to defend Jesus from misrepresentations, the living Word of God.

 

[St. SteVen]

One thing is for sure: There are no unbelievers in hell.
But by that time it's too late.

What needs to happen to prevent going to hell, in your view?

 

[St. SteVen]

No. 2 typically assumes angels will take part of this judgement, which is nowhere taught in the Bible, however the teaching of the total cessation of life, physically and consciously is the Scriptural judgement. Unfortunately, Platonic teaching of spirits and immortal souls have created an alternate reality for most Christians; hence the false teaching of hell and heaven going. The Jews understanding of the Godhead and the state of the dead has not changed at all from OT to NT teaching, however the imported doctrine from 100’s of years of philosophical influence has. This is why doctrinal unity is impossible as the Word of God cannot standalone. Have a look at any thread in this forum and you will see council language used all the time.

F2F

Do you believe there is no afterlife?
Sorry, I'm not following you. Please explain, thanks.

 

[Jack]

Right. (not)
Why else would anyone want a relationship with God, except to escape him. (not)
There is no benefit to a relationship with God in this lifetime, correct? Say what?
After all, Jesus died to save us from God, right? (not)

The hell doctrine and the use of fear of eternal punishment is spiritual extortion.
Thus turning our loving heavenly Father into a gangster godfather, making us an offer we can't refuse.

Someone should have told Jesus.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Jack]

I'm here to defend Jesus from misrepresentations, the living Word of God.

The Bible is the written word of God.

 

[quietthinker]

Seems preposterous that there would be ANY "unbelievers" in the afterlife.
With the veil removed, what is will be plain to see.

But part and parcel of the belief in hell is the belief that God is not responsible for those who end up there.
It's the blame the victim mentality.

If there is a hell, who created it? The creator of ALL things, obviously.
Those who believe in hell want to separate God from it. As if he had NOTHING to do with it.

Jesus did talk about hell but it has nothing to do with the mythological images so often conjured and believed . Ole Nick has done a convincing job on many getting them to assume that immortality in a torture chamber is what a 'loving' God has in store for the refusers of hoop jumping with conditions.

 

[quietthinker]

The Bible is the written word of God.

...and I do hope you have ears to hear!

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus did talk about hell but it has nothing to do with the mythological images so often conjured and believed . Ole Nick has done a convincing job on many getting them to assume that immortality in a torture chamber is what a 'loving' God has in store for the refusers of hoop jumping with conditions.

Exactly.
Interesting that hell is a common doctrine in both Christianity and Satanism.

 

[Jack]

...and I do hope you have ears to hear!

And vice versa. Jesus mentioned "the everlasting fire", "Hell fire", Lake of Fire several times. And He gave an in depth illustration in Luke 16. I believe Him.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus did talk about hell but it has nothing to do with the mythological images so often conjured and believed . Ole Nick has done a convincing job on many getting them to assume that immortality in a torture chamber is what a 'loving' God has in store for the refusers of hoop jumping with conditions.

Trying to remember the details of the parody I posted some time ago.

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

 

[Jn1.Chris]

Trying to remember the details of the parody I posted some time ago.

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

I see it more like:
P1:. Hey this building is burning down and all exits are blocked except this one. Follow me.

I don't know which version of hell is true.
Cases can be made for all 3.

Hell can scare people into belief and then sanctification but it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance?

 

[quietthinker]

And vice versa. Jesus mentioned "the everlasting fire", "Hell fire", Lake of Fire several times. And He gave an in depth illustration in Luke 16. I believe Him.

Tell me Jack, why do you think Jesus repeatedly said, 'if you have ears to hear then hear'?
We all have ears but the question address the willingness to hear the intended message?

The criterion (a principle or standard by which something may be judged or decided) required to hear well is a knowledge of the God we are dealing with. This knowledge informs us on how we hear.`

For example, if I was to say to you, 'there was an Englishman, Irishman and a Scott traveling in a plane........', you would immediately recognise that a joke is about to be told. If you didn't recognise it, you would hear something unrelated to the intent of my words.

Knowing the Bible is not the same as knowing Jesus. One can have a cognitive knowledge of the Bible and not know Jesus. The Jews had a cognitive knowledge of the Bible yet chose to hear what he was not saying.......subsequently, he reminded them regularly to hear his intent.

 

[face2face]

Do you believe there is no afterlife?
Sorry, I'm not following you. Please explain, thanks.

Hebrews 11:39-40 teaches clearly the faithful in that chapter have not been raised and are not perfected in any way, hence the reason for faith and belief in the resurrection.

Romans 14: 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Fairly obvious really...Christ can't be Lord of the dead if they have all wafted up to Heaven, or sent hurtling down to some place of torture.

Unfortuntely Christians dont believe dead is dead...this is ironic when you consider the serpents claim/lie!

F2F

 

[Earburner]

,The Biblical view.

"And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

KJV Rev. 20[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

I like the concept of those words, simply because they openly oppose themselves, and the human mind of our "natural man" rushes off with it to the wrong conclusion.

So what is it, that causes the opposition?
1.There is no such thing as day and night in God's Eternity. 2 Peter 3:10, Rev. 21:3, 22:5.

2. Though the devil is a fallen angel, he still has eternal existence, but lives in the "chains of darkness", having not the light of God's truth or His Presence.

3. People without Christ and His Gift of eternal life, do not have eternal existence of any kind. They surely do die, in the very day of their last breath of oxygenated air.
From that point on, they shall remain dead, and are perished/destroyed forever.
All of such are NOT being eternally tormented, nor are they suffering any kind of eternal punishing. Their punishment, is simply eternal death.
John 3:18, Rom. 8:8-9, 1 John 5:12-13.

 

[face2face]

2. Though the devil is a fallen angel, he still has eternal existence, but lives in the "chains of darkness", having not the light of God's truth or His Presence.

This requires another look when you have time.

 

[quietthinker]

2. Though the devil is a fallen angel, he still has eternal existence

only God has immortality. 1 Timothy 6:16

 

[Earburner]

only God has immortality. 1 Timothy 6:16

Angels are spirit beings, and have no mortality or immortality. They have only eternal existence, based on the fact that they serve God only, continuously, without rest, forever and ever, without error.
Once sin is found in them, they are banished from God's kingdom, and live "in chains of darkness", forever and ever, outside the KoG. They can never re-enter into it again, nor into anyone in which the The Holy Spirit of God has "garnished" and indwells. KJV Mat. 12:43-45. (the words "garnished" and "mansion" have the same meaning in the Strongs-TR Greek text.)

God, who is a Spirit, took up residence within His Son's sinless mortal flesh permanently. And now, after Jesus' bodily resurrection, the Spirit of God is now permanently within Jesus' Glorified Immortal body.
Truly, they are now One together in Immortality. Jesus Himself is literally God the Father's house, the "living veil" and place of God's permanent dwelling, FOR US. KJV John 14:2, Heb. 10:20, Rom. 8:9.
Without us having "the Spirit of Christ", God the Father, who is in Jesus, CANNOT and WILL NOT enter into any person permanently apart from Christ.

 

[Jack]

Tell me Jack, why do you think Jesus repeatedly said, 'if you have ears to hear then hear'?
We all have ears but the question address the willingness to hear the intended message?

The criterion (a principle or standard by which something may be judged or decided) required to hear well is a knowledge of the God we are dealing with. This knowledge informs us on how we hear.`

For example, if I was to say to you, 'there was an Englishman, Irishman and a Scott traveling in a plane........', you would immediately recognise that a joke is about to be told. If you didn't recognise it, you would hear something unrelated to the intent of my words.

Knowing the Bible is not the same as knowing Jesus. One can have a cognitive knowledge of the Bible and not know Jesus. The Jews had a cognitive knowledge of the Bible yet chose to hear what he was not saying.......subsequently, he reminded them regularly to hear his intent.

Matthew 5:22 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.