The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity
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Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
I believe that Satan and the so-called "fallen" angels are doing EXACTLY what God intends for them to do. I also believe that they too will be saved and transformed by Jesus.
Revelation 14:10 esv
10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Remember, the word "torment" also means to test and is used in refining. And what is the purpose of sulfur? Sulfur is a refining agent. Satan will be refined and, as this scripture says, Jesus will supervise his refinement personally. Otherwise, what is his purpose for being there?
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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Have you ever read the Bible?
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
If it's true that the "lost" will suffer FOREVER then the following verses are all FALSE.
1 John 4:14
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever[PM1]
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.”
Revelation 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God
Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
2 Samuel 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.
Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
[PM1]
ALL of the promises of salvation are conditional upon believing. And you are giving false hope to people heading for Hell fire.
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I notice the enthusiasm different ones bring to the idea of an ever burning hell.
Here is an article which will bring joy to some and infuriate others. So without further ado, here it is posted in two sections
Part 1
FacebookTwitterCopy Link
Perhaps no doctrine has done more to turn people away from God than the teaching of an eternally burning hell. The idea that God is love but if you don’t love Him, He will torture you for all eternity in fire has turned millions against our loving Creator.
The Anglican church officially rejected the doctrine of an eternally burning hell last century. And many evangelical Christians have joined theologian Edward Fudge, who has also rejected an eternally burning hell. In his book The Fire that Consumes, he takes the view that the fires burn up and annihilate the wicked rather than torment them for all eternity.
Seventh-day Adventists also teach the ultimate annihilation of the wicked, that the fires burn only long enough to consume sinners and then they go out.
Have you ever struggled with the question of hell? How could a God who is love create a place of torture and torment for those we are told He loves? Well, the good news is that God is love and that nothing in Scripture contradicts this. We don’t need to reject the Bible to believe God is love; in fact, rightly understood, the texts about consuming fire are an amazing affirmation of God’s love.
But the question Isaiah poses is: Who can live in this fire? Who will spend eternity in the flames? And the prophet gives a shocking answer:
And what does Scripture reveal?
When Christ returns, He doesn’t come veiling His glory but in the full splendor of His holy, loving, righteous self—brighter than the sun! Rivers of blazing love surging out from Him, the earth will be bathed in His glory (Isaiah 6:3). The righteous will be transformed by the life-giving fires of His love, just as Moses was transformed after being in God’s presence. Remember, he came down off the mountain with his face radiating heavenly fire. But Moses wasn’t in pain. He didn’t have third-degree burns. His whiskers weren’t even singed!
But when the children of Israel—unrepentant, still filled with sin and selfishness—saw Moses’ face, they shrank back and begged him to wear a veil. They couldn’t stand the heavenly light (Exodus 34:33–35).
The fire of infinite love is painful only when the mind is not healed; the guilty conscience, the unregenerate heart that prefers lies and selfishness, cannot tolerate the light of love and truth. “This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil” (John 3:19).
This is why the Bible describes the wicked as being destroyed by the brightness of Christ’s coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8). But how could this be? How can a fire that doesn’t burn up bushes or buildings or faces consume the wicked in the end? What kind of fire does this?
This is the fire of love and truth that glorifies God’s people while it cleanses the earth of sin.
A fire that consumes sin? What is that? It is not the fire of combustion, which burns material substances—things made out of molecules, like our homes, furniture, and books—for sin is not made of physical matter. Sin is made of ideas, thoughts, concepts, attitudes, beliefs. At its core, sin is composed of two elements: lies (Satan is the “father of lies,” John 8:44) and selfishness. Fires of combustion don’t destroy ideas. Fires that burn material substances don’t consume lies and selfishness.
Here is an article which will bring joy to some and infuriate others. So without further ado, here it is posted in two sections
Part 1
THE TRUTH ABOUT HELL
September 2, 2021 Blogs by: Tim Jennings, M.D.FacebookTwitterCopy Link
Perhaps no doctrine has done more to turn people away from God than the teaching of an eternally burning hell. The idea that God is love but if you don’t love Him, He will torture you for all eternity in fire has turned millions against our loving Creator.
The Anglican church officially rejected the doctrine of an eternally burning hell last century. And many evangelical Christians have joined theologian Edward Fudge, who has also rejected an eternally burning hell. In his book The Fire that Consumes, he takes the view that the fires burn up and annihilate the wicked rather than torment them for all eternity.
Seventh-day Adventists also teach the ultimate annihilation of the wicked, that the fires burn only long enough to consume sinners and then they go out.
Have you ever struggled with the question of hell? How could a God who is love create a place of torture and torment for those we are told He loves? Well, the good news is that God is love and that nothing in Scripture contradicts this. We don’t need to reject the Bible to believe God is love; in fact, rightly understood, the texts about consuming fire are an amazing affirmation of God’s love.
The Consuming Fire
The Old Testament prophet Isaiah describes this eternal fire:What is being described? Doesn’t it sound like hellfire?
But the question Isaiah poses is: Who can live in this fire? Who will spend eternity in the flames? And the prophet gives a shocking answer:
What? It is the righteous who will live forever in this fire—and not the wicked? If this doesn’t make sense to you, don’t worry; when I first read this passage, it didn’t compute for me either, not until I searched the entire Bible, allowing the evidence I uncovered within its pages to form my conclusions.
And what does Scripture reveal?
- When God spoke to Moses from within the bush, the bush burned but did not get consumed (Exodus 3:2–4, Acts 7:30–36).
- When God came to Mt. Sinai, His presence was described as a “consuming fire,” but the elements did not melt (Exodus 24:17).
- When Solomon’s Temple was dedicated, the priests couldn’t enter because the brightness of God’s fiery glory was too great, but the temple did not burn down (2 Chronicles 5:14, 7:1–3).
- Before his fall, Lucifer walked among the “fiery stones” of God’s presence (Ezekiel 28:14, 16).
- God takes His throne and “rivers of fire” come out from Him, yet billions stand in this fire without any harm (Daniel 7:9, 10).
- Prior to his crucifixion, in a body still subject to death, Jesus was bathed in heavenly fire, yet no harm came to Him. His clothes didn’t even get scorched (Matthew 17:2).
The Big Deception
What does this mean? The lie that Satan has foisted upon us is this: The place you don’t want to go, the place you don’t want to be, is the place of eternal burning and consuming fire. But, as amazing as it may seem, that place is God’s very presence! The righteous will spend eternity bathed in the flames of God’s fiery presence. But the wicked will be consumed in that same eternal fire.When Christ returns, He doesn’t come veiling His glory but in the full splendor of His holy, loving, righteous self—brighter than the sun! Rivers of blazing love surging out from Him, the earth will be bathed in His glory (Isaiah 6:3). The righteous will be transformed by the life-giving fires of His love, just as Moses was transformed after being in God’s presence. Remember, he came down off the mountain with his face radiating heavenly fire. But Moses wasn’t in pain. He didn’t have third-degree burns. His whiskers weren’t even singed!
But when the children of Israel—unrepentant, still filled with sin and selfishness—saw Moses’ face, they shrank back and begged him to wear a veil. They couldn’t stand the heavenly light (Exodus 34:33–35).
The fire of infinite love is painful only when the mind is not healed; the guilty conscience, the unregenerate heart that prefers lies and selfishness, cannot tolerate the light of love and truth. “This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil” (John 3:19).
This is why the Bible describes the wicked as being destroyed by the brightness of Christ’s coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8). But how could this be? How can a fire that doesn’t burn up bushes or buildings or faces consume the wicked in the end? What kind of fire does this?
This is the fire of love and truth that glorifies God’s people while it cleanses the earth of sin.
A fire that consumes sin? What is that? It is not the fire of combustion, which burns material substances—things made out of molecules, like our homes, furniture, and books—for sin is not made of physical matter. Sin is made of ideas, thoughts, concepts, attitudes, beliefs. At its core, sin is composed of two elements: lies (Satan is the “father of lies,” John 8:44) and selfishness. Fires of combustion don’t destroy ideas. Fires that burn material substances don’t consume lies and selfishness.
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Part 2
The Burning Truth
So, what does consume a lie? The truth! And what does consume selfishness? Love! And the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of both truth and love. Amazingly, when the Spirit fell at Pentecost, they all witnessed two streams of fire over each person (Acts 2:3), yet no one got burned. The building didn’t burn down. Their clothes didn’t ignite. It was their hearts and minds that were cleansed by that fire—the fire of love and truth. Distortions about God were removed from their minds; envy, strife, and selfishness were burned out of their hearts. Love blazed in them again! Just as was promised, they were baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire—the fire of love and truth (Matthew 3:11).But if the fires are the fires of truth and love, why do the wicked suffer and die when these fires burn freely? “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
What happens in the mind of those who reject truth and cling to falsehood when the truth of God comes shining through? They suffer torment of mind, anguish of heart, and suffering of psyche. And what happens to those whose hearts are filled with selfishness when the pure, undiluted love of God comes blazing through? “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink [love him]. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head” (Proverbs 25:21, 22; Romans 12:20). What happens in the mind of the unhealed when they meet pure love and truth face to face? The terrible suffering that unremedied sin causes.
We can never avoid the truth. We can only delay the day we deal with it. We can deal with the truth about ourselves, our histories, our characters, our mistakes here and now, under God’s grace, and experience forgiveness, healing, restoration, regeneration, and ultimately eternal life. Or we can delay dealing with the truth—put it off, deny, externalize, project, blame, and scapegoat others. But if we don’t deal with the truth now, one day when Christ returns, such people will come face to face with ultimate truth.
On that day, what will it be like for that abusive mother, for that sexually deviant father, to look into the mirror of undiluted truth and see their own selves as they really are—no self-distortion, no lies—just the plain truth? What will it be like for such a person to have full awareness of what their actions did to their child? What will it be like to have this truth sear through their mind in front of the entire universe?
Yes, there will be terrible suffering in the flames of God’s love, but it will not be inflicted as an external penalty. That suffering will not be the torture of melting flesh but the unavoidable torture of the soul that unremedied sin inflicts. Just as Moses came out from God’s presence with love and favor in his heart, yet the people shrank back seeking to hide from his face, so too, when Christ arrives, He returns with love and favor, but those solidified in the lies about God cannot stand the light of love and truth, so they run to hide from His face (Revelation 6:15, 16).
Nadab and Abihu: Picture of the End
The Bible confirms that the fire of God’s presence consumes sin, not material substances. God has also plainly demonstrated that the “consuming fire” that destroys the wicked is not a fire that burns elements. In Leviticus, we read about Aaron’s sons, who as priests brought unauthorized fire before the Lord:The fire of the Lord “consumed” them—yet their bodies weren’t charred and their tunics were still intact.
This is what happens to the wicked in the end. They are “tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb” (Revelation 14:10). Notice, it is in Jesus’ presence where they suffer. What about the term “burning sulfur”? It comes from the Greek thion and means the divine fire—or the fire of God’s presence.
Eventually, after all the wicked have been consumed but their physical bodies are not destroyed, as it was with Nadab and Abihu, when only dead bodies of the unrepentant remain, then the fires of combustion commence—spoken of by Peter, in which the elements melt in the terrible heat, consuming all that remains. Then the earth is recreated free from all sin—a new earth, the home of the righteous (2 Peter 3:12, 13).
But Revelation also tells us:
Smoke is what is left after something is burned. This “smoke” symbolizes the memory, the lessons learned of what unremedied sin does to sinners—it torments and destroys. This lesson will never be forgotten by the universe. The righteous will remember for all eternity that the wicked suffered and died, not at God’s hand, but because of their condition and because they refused to allow God to heal them. The righteous will remember for all eternity that every person who is eternally lost is lost only because they prefer non-existence to living in a universe of love and truth.
What incredibly good news that God is not the source of suffering and death! The Bible is proved true that it is sin that causes death (Romans 6:23; James 1:15; Galatians 6:8). What incredibly good news that because these truths are revealed and will never be forgotten, sin will never arise again and God’s universe and every saved individual will live in eternal peace, health, happiness, and security, living and thriving in the consuming fires and eternal burnings of God’s very presence!
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Yep. Grap a seat on the shore of the Lake of Fire, spread out a blanket, pop a beer, and enjoy the screaming and moaning and cursing.
Just gonna stand there and watch me burn,
That's alright,
Because I like the way it hurts.
Just think of all those denying the "everlasting fire" that Jesus warned us about, leading people to Hell fire, "forever and ever" even their own families!
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
I notice the enthusiasm different one bring to the idea of an ever burning hell.
Here is an article which will bring joy to some and infuriate others. So without further ado, here it is posted in two sections
Part 1
THE TRUTH ABOUT HELL
September 2, 2021 Blogs by: Tim Jennings, M.D.
FacebookTwitterCopy Link
Perhaps no doctrine has done more to turn people away from God than the teaching of an eternally burning hell. The idea that God is love but if you don’t love Him, He will torture you for all eternity in fire has turned millions against our loving Creator.
The Anglican church officially rejected the doctrine of an eternally burning hell last century. And many evangelical Christians have joined theologian Edward Fudge, who has also rejected an eternally burning hell. In his book The Fire that Consumes, he takes the view that the fires burn up and annihilate the wicked rather than torment them for all eternity.
Seventh-day Adventists also teach the ultimate annihilation of the wicked, that the fires burn only long enough to consume sinners and then they go out.
Have you ever struggled with the question of hell? How could a God who is love create a place of torture and torment for those we are told He loves? Well, the good news is that God is love and that nothing in Scripture contradicts this. We don’t need to reject the Bible to believe God is love; in fact, rightly understood, the texts about consuming fire are an amazing affirmation of God’s love.
The Consuming Fire
The Old Testament prophet Isaiah describes this eternal fire:
What is being described? Doesn’t it sound like hellfire?
But the question Isaiah poses is: Who can live in this fire? Who will spend eternity in the flames? And the prophet gives a shocking answer:
What? It is the righteous who will live forever in this fire—and not the wicked? If this doesn’t make sense to you, don’t worry; when I first read this passage, it didn’t compute for me either, not until I searched the entire Bible, allowing the evidence I uncovered within its pages to form my conclusions.
And what does Scripture reveal?
Hebrews plainly tells us that “our God is a consuming fire” (12:29). The Song of Solomon states: “Love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. Many waters cannot quench love; rivers cannot wash it away” (8:6, 7).
- When God spoke to Moses from within the bush, the bush burned but did not get consumed (Exodus 3:2–4, Acts 7:30–36).
- When God came to Mt. Sinai, His presence was described as a “consuming fire,” but the elements did not melt (Exodus 24:17).
- When Solomon’s Temple was dedicated, the priests couldn’t enter because the brightness of God’s fiery glory was too great, but the temple did not burn down (2 Chronicles 5:14, 7:1–3).
- Before his fall, Lucifer walked among the “fiery stones” of God’s presence (Ezekiel 28:14, 16).
- God takes His throne and “rivers of fire” come out from Him, yet billions stand in this fire without any harm (Daniel 7:9, 10).
- Prior to his crucifixion, in a body still subject to death, Jesus was bathed in heavenly fire, yet no harm came to Him. His clothes didn’t even get scorched (Matthew 17:2).
The Big Deception
What does this mean? The lie that Satan has foisted upon us is this: The place you don’t want to go, the place you don’t want to be, is the place of eternal burning and consuming fire. But, as amazing as it may seem, that place is God’s very presence! The righteous will spend eternity bathed in the flames of God’s fiery presence. But the wicked will be consumed in that same eternal fire.
When Christ returns, He doesn’t come veiling His glory but in the full splendor of His holy, loving, righteous self—brighter than the sun! Rivers of blazing love surging out from Him, the earth will be bathed in His glory (Isaiah 6:3). The righteous will be transformed by the life-giving fires of His love, just as Moses was transformed after being in God’s presence. Remember, he came down off the mountain with his face radiating heavenly fire. But Moses wasn’t in pain. He didn’t have third-degree burns. His whiskers weren’t even singed!
But when the children of Israel—unrepentant, still filled with sin and selfishness—saw Moses’ face, they shrank back and begged him to wear a veil. They couldn’t stand the heavenly light (Exodus 34:33–35).
The fire of infinite love is painful only when the mind is not healed; the guilty conscience, the unregenerate heart that prefers lies and selfishness, cannot tolerate the light of love and truth. “This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil” (John 3:19).
This is why the Bible describes the wicked as being destroyed by the brightness of Christ’s coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8). But how could this be? How can a fire that doesn’t burn up bushes or buildings or faces consume the wicked in the end? What kind of fire does this?
This is the fire of love and truth that glorifies God’s people while it cleanses the earth of sin.
A fire that consumes sin? What is that? It is not the fire of combustion, which burns material substances—things made out of molecules, like our homes, furniture, and books—for sin is not made of physical matter. Sin is made of ideas, thoughts, concepts, attitudes, beliefs. At its core, sin is composed of two elements: lies (Satan is the “father of lies,” John 8:44) and selfishness. Fires of combustion don’t destroy ideas. Fires that burn material substances don’t consume lies and selfishness.
That's amazing! Thanks for sharing!
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Earburner
Well-Known Member
It's a semi-fictitious story (parable) that delivers a singular truth, but somehow you missed it.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Rev. 12
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation [Jesus' first appearance], and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Jude 1
[5] I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
[6] And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness [on this planet]** unto the judgment of the great day.
** Note
the earth is the place of satan's endless grave, aka "the bottomless pit".
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Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Thank you but this world will cease to exist.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
That is exactly my point. Satan will cease to exist along with it. It's both his prison and endless grave for all eternity, aka "the bottomless pit".
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Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
I have a different belief. I believe that Jesus will remove the evil from Satan and then Satan will follow Jesus along with everyone else.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Love to see a scripture confirming this, Patrick.I have a different belief. I believe that Jesus will remove the evil from Satan and then Satan will follow Jesus along with everyone else.
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