The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity

[Jack]

I am not ignoring the scriptures. I am reading them without adding to them. I tried responding to each of the verses you mentioned but the board wouldn't let me post. Let me summarize:

1. Eternal fire is eternal fire not eternal torture.
2. Eternal smoke is eternal smoke, not eternal torture.
3. Fire destroys, and whatever is thrown into a lake of fire is destroyed.

No it isn't!

4. Fire consumes chaff, turning it into ash. Putting chaff into an eternal fire makes no difference.
5. Hades is not the Lake of Fire. In the end, those located in Hades are destroyed in the Lake of fire and Hades itself is also destroyed there.
6. John refers to the Lake of Fire as "the second death." If they are dead, they are not alive in order to experience torment.

I think your entire baseball team struck out at the plate.

Only one verse out of the verses you mentioned appears to speak about eternal torment. Revelation 20:10. Our understanding of this verse will depend on how we answer these two questions: 1) Who is being tortured, and 2) for how long?

If you are interested, I am willing to talk about that.

Then why is it ETERNAL? Appears? lol

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

Billions will spend eternity in Hell fire. No doubt, they didn't believe in Hell either.

 

[teamventure]

What I said was true. You made the claim that a person can't have faith without a Bible.
The Faith chapter in the Bible is full of people who had faith but no Bible.
And now you accuse me of "getting into semantics"? - LOL

No, "They didn't have the written word before Moses" = you were wrong. (your, no Bible = no faith, claim)

The atheists are right about many things. But Christians consider them enemies, and don't listen to them.
And considers anyone who does listen to them as "playing on the side of satan." Sound familiar?
Even you admit there are "sides". (enemies)

Let me put it this way, you show you have lack of faith by not believing the word as written. If the faith filled patriarchs were alive today they would have faith in scripture not lack of faith. The word of God existed before the foundation of the world, it just hadn't been written yet.

So you're saying that Christians should listen to athiests because they are right about many things?
Care to name a few things other than scripture being "in error."

 

[Jack]

What I said was true. You made the claim that a person can't have faith without a Bible.
The Faith chapter in the Bible is full of people who had faith but no Bible.
And now you accuse me of "getting into semantics"? - LOL

No, "They didn't have the written word before Moses" = you were wrong. (your, no Bible = no faith, claim)

The atheists are right about many things. But Christians consider them enemies, and don't listen to them.
And considers anyone who does listen to them as "playing on the side of satan." Sound familiar?
Even you admit there are "sides". (enemies)

Is that why you don't believe in Hell, because atheists told you?

 

[St. SteVen]

Let me put it this way, you show you have lack of faith by not believing the word as written.

Good to hear from you. Thanks.
Say what? I don't have a "lack of faith by not believing the word as written."
Not sure where you got that idea.

If the faith filled patriarchs were alive today they would have faith in scripture not lack of faith.

Of course. But they didn't have the scriptures back then, right?
That's my point. The scriptures aren't needed for a relationship with God.

The word of God existed before the foundation of the world, it just hadn't been written yet.

Which proves what?

So you're saying that Christians should listen to athiests because they are right about many things?
Care to name a few things other than scripture being "in error."

Yes, Christians should listen to atheists. They bring perspective.
They have an outside view that is important to note.
Other than scripture being "in error."? Yes, doctrinal error. (big time)

 

[Keiw]

PROVE that you're qualified to declare our Bibles errors and Satanic. That's exactly what Satan does. Your opinions do not overrule God of the Bible.

All who care LOOK into facts. Every trinity scholar on earth knows Gods name was removed. They don't care.

 

[Keiw]

They will certainly wish they were destroyed.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

Jesus taught-Those walking the broad and spacious path to destruction. )= Many. Because they entered the wrong gate, used the wrong altered bibles filled with errors. Those refuse to believe Jesus over symbolism. Its called the darkness-accomplished like this-2Cor 11:12-15-Satan and his teachers transform into angels of light.) but in reality its darkness.
He is doing the same with the image of the beast, making it look good to the mortal heart.

 

[Jack]

All who care LOOK into facts. Every trinity scholar on earth knows Gods name was removed. They don't care.

That's your JW opinions. You can't prove any of that.

 

[Jack]

Jesus taught-Those walking the broad and spacious path to destruction. )= Many. Because they entered the wrong gate, used the wrong altered bibles filled with errors. Those refuse to believe Jesus over symbolism. Its called the darkness-accomplished like this-2Cor 11:12-15-Satan and his teachers transform into angels of light.) but in reality its darkness.
He is doing the same with the image of the beast, making it look good to the mortal heart.

I don't think you have a clue what Jesus taught. All you know is JW Bible attacks. Keep trying. Maybe you'll come up with one fact eventually.

 

[Grailhunter]

I am not ignoring the scriptures. I am reading them without adding to them. I tried responding to each of the verses you mentioned but the board wouldn't let me post. Let me summarize:

1. Eternal fire is eternal fire not eternal torture.
2. Eternal smoke is eternal smoke, not eternal torture.
3. Fire destroys, and whatever is thrown into a lake of fire is destroyed.
4. Fire consumes chaff, turning it into ash. Putting chaff into an eternal fire makes no difference.
5. Hades is not the Lake of Fire. In the end, those located in Hades are destroyed in the Lake of fire and Hades itself is also destroyed there.
6. John refers to the Lake of Fire as "the second death." If they are dead, they are not alive in order to experience torment.

I think your entire baseball team struck out at the plate.

Only one verse out of the verses you mentioned appears to speak about eternal torment. Revelation 20:10. Our understanding of this verse will depend on how we answer these two questions: 1) Who is being tortured, and 2) for how long?

If you are interested, I am willing to talk about that.

You gotta understand I know the language, the culture, and the history.
Word games will not work on me anymore than it would with Christ or the Apostles.
They used several different words and descriptions and illustrations and it all comes down to a fiery Hell of punishment forever.
No description of Judgment handing out different sentences, the sentence is forever.
The sentence is burn in flames forever.
No time out for good behavior.
No example of anyone leaving Hell.
The word temporary is not associated with Hell.
This carrys on all through the early Christian writers that were disciples of the Apostles.
Althrough Christian history and through the Protestant reform.
The Ecumenical Councils definitely did not question Hell as a fiery place of eternal punishment.
This questioning of Hell does not occur until the age of liberalizm.
You might as well as develop your own reality...even a religion....it would be easier to start a new religion rather than spend your life learning a religion of tap dancing and denial.
If you do not like Hell, don't do the things that will get you there.

 

[Keiw]

That's your JW opinions. You can't prove any of that.

I dont have to prove it. Its well known fact.

 

[Keiw]

I don't think you have a clue what Jesus taught. All you know is JW Bible attacks. Keep trying. Maybe you'll come up with one fact eventually.

I shared 9 teachings found in every translation on earth in that thread i started. Its you who don't know what he taught.

 

[Jack]

I dont have to prove it. Its well known fact.

Yes you do have to prove it. You can't make this stuff up and be a Christian!

 

[Jack]

I shared 9 teachings found in every translation on earth in that thread i started. Its you who don't know what he taught.

I can't think of any verse in the Bible off hand that JW's don't twist the Hell out of to change the clear meaning. And you almost never quote Scripture! Just your Kingdom Hall errors.

 

[teamventure]

The scriptures aren't needed for a relationship with God.

....

 

[Jack]

The scriptures aren't needed for a relationship with God.

2 Corinthians 11
14 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,

 

[teamventure]

2 Corinthians 11
14 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,

Hey Jack, thank you for contending for the faith.
Is Steven a JW as well as that other guy?

 

[Jack]

Hey Jack, thank you for contending for the faith.
Is Steven a JW as well as that other guy?

I don't know but anyone who attacks the deity of Jesus is a messenger of Satan.

 

[Brakelite]

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

From death. We are already dead in sin from the moment we first get angry at our mums reliance to feed us for the umpteenth time that day... Grace... The blood of the Lamb... Redeems us from that death sentence, saves us from that death becoming permanent.

QUOTE...If God was content with people coming to Him out of fear...

Why should we assume that?

I said if, please don't quote just half my sentence then comment. Context is important with what we say as well as scripture. You missed...

then He should have squished Lucifer/Satan right at the beginning of the rebellion and we could have done without all his theatrics right?

If God...would have been content with peoplecoming to Him through fear, then He could have squished Satan before he brought sin into this world. Everyone, including angels, would have then, if God had destroyed Satan at the beginning, served God out of fear, not love. "If God did that to Satan without giving him an opportunity to prove himself, he would do that to me...". Think about that awhile instead of questioning the gospel with simplistic reasoning.

 

[Brakelite]

It's the Bible that upsets you, not me.

1 Samuel 2
6 "The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up.
7 The LORD makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up.

Daniel 4
35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

That does not mean we have to accept everything at face value and not question God regarding His purposes. "Come now, and let us reason together saith the Lord". Questioning does not mean doubting... It means "I would like to know you better, and to better understand my place in the scheme of things so I can serve you in love, knowing Who and what you are, rather than from fear thinking if I don't behave, or wasn't chosen, then I'm lost."

 

[Jack]

2 Kings 17
25 They didn't fear God so the Lord sent lions to kill them.