The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity

[CadyandZoe]

What do you think of this parable? How does it apply?

Matthew 25:14-30
14 “For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. 16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them. 20 The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

22 “Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’

26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Not to take anything away from Charity's answer but only to point out the place where the wicked slave was taken -- outer darkness. Perhaps this place is somehow associated with the Lake of Fire somehow, I don't know. A man who ends up in outer darkness would certainly live in regret, which would explain the weeping and etc. But it would take more evidence for me to become convinced that the man was experiencing torture.

 

[Grailhunter]

And Christian preachers, including yourself, have been teaching that for centuries on no greater authority than Satan. Man is immortal. Yeah, right.

Christ and Apostles and the Christian leaders there after preached that and would consider you cursed for preaching a different Gospel. This does not show up until relatively recently from the twisted mind of Charles Taze Russell.

KJV Jeremiah 9:23-24
23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Yes Christ is God and He is loving and His judgment is righteous....that is why the people that twist the scriptures will be screaming in Hell for eternity. What you people preach is a lie, a sin, and sacrileges and your reward will be eternal agony.

 

[Lambano]

Not to take anything away from Charity's answer but only to point out the place where the wicked slave was taken -- outer darkness. Perhaps this place is somehow associated with the Lake of Fire somehow, I don't know. A man who ends up in outer darkness would certainly live in regret, which would explain the weeping and etc. But it would take more evidence for me to become convinced that the man was experiencing torture.

I see being tossed outside into eternal darkness and being tossed in a burning garbage pit both as death imagery.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Again apparently you do not know who you are talking to.

I know the Bible backwards and forwards....been involved with one form or another of formal education on Christianity, languages, and history all my life....educated in 5 countries.

Why do you think I would believe you and why does it matter? Ever since the Reformation, we have affirmed the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which means that we no longer serve under an authoritarian-based knowledge system or obey an authority other than the scriptures.

Christ is love and Christ gives Grace but you cannot play Him for a fool.

I have learned that some folks hold to ostensible beliefs, i.e. opinions they claim to affirm but remain in doubt. James spoke of this. Do you actually believe that Christ is love? Or am I to take your attitude to belie your beliefs?

Are you suggesting that I am going to burn in hell because I disagree with your understanding of hell?

Can I ask why two brothers can't discuss the scriptures with mutual respect?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I see being tossed outside into eternal darkness and being tossed in a burning garbage pit both as death imagery.

That's interesting. I would love to explore this further with you but the heretic hunters are after me again. Don't want you to get caught in the cross fire.

 

[Lambano]

That's interesting. I would love to explore this further with you but the heretic hunters are after me again. Don't want you to get caught in the cross fire.

Oh, they already know about me. But my purpose in posting the parable of the Talents was to point out the type of disciple you get when you rule by fear. I dislike that parable - but my experience confirms it.

 

[charity]

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful post, Chris.
Have a blessed Sunday.

Yes, only God is immortal, but... we call it "the afterlife" for good reason.

Unless you have more than Ecclesiastes chapter nine verse 5, the idea doesn't hold up.

If we believe in unconscious nonexistence after physical death, it comes with some baggage. (see verse 5 below)
Will the dead also "have no further reward"? Not sure about you, but I want my rewards in heaven. - LOL
And, will even our name be forgotten? As in, blotted out of the book of life? Say it's not so.
The last phrase in verse six tells us that this only refers to "anything that happens under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

Agree.

Agree, but I view "asleep" as physical death. They appear to be asleep to us here. RIP

Fortunately, Christ has already paid the death penalty for all in his atonement.
It was a complete work, not limited to the Elect.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

In my view there are two kinds of each,
which causes confusion in Bible understanding.
1) Physical life and spiritual life
2) Physical death and spiritual death

We are born physically alive but spiritually dead.
Eventually we will be physically dead.
And as you say, the soul returns to the giver.

We may have in this life been drawn to God by his Spirit.
Which means we would be spiritually alive at physical death.
Or we may receive spiritual life upon meeting God for the first time.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

[/quote]

Thank you, @St. SteVen,

I shall consider your response and hopefully return to make a reply (God willing).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Grailhunter]

Are you suggesting that I am going to burn in hell because I disagree with your understanding of hell?

Nope, you will burn in Hell because you disagree with Christ, the Apostles, and Christian teachings all through history.
You will burn in Hell because you have worked so hard to twist the scriptures and your efforts can cause others to go to Hell. I have already explained all this so there is nothing else to say.
But final judgment is up to Christ, not me.....Do you think Christ will find humor in the fact that you lead other people to Hell. Sizzle! Sizzle!

 

[Brakelite]

Christ and Apostles and the Christian leaders there after preached that and would consider you cursed for preaching a different Gospel. This does not show up until relatively recently from the twisted mind of Charles Taze Russell

Only God is immortal.

Yes Christ is God and He is loving and His judgment is righteous....that is why the people that twist the scriptures will be screaming in Hell for eternity. What you people preach is a lie, a sin, and sacrileges and your reward will be eternal agony.

On one side of the above... You speak the truth. What you say on the other side of... Contradicts the first. You are trusting so much in your own education and learning you are not listening.

 

[Grailhunter]

Only God is immortal.

On one side of the above... You speak the truth. What you say on the other side of... Contradicts the first. You are trusting so much in your own education and learning you are not listening.

I trust in Christ, the Apostles, all of Christian history....which my education is based on.

Again your belief started with Charles Taze Russell. Early Christian writers that were disciples of the Apostles do not reflect your beliefs. The first 300 years of Christian history does not reflect your belief. The Ecumenical Councils do not reflect your belief. The Catholic Church does not reflect that. Martin Luther and the Protestant reform does not reflect your belief.

Bottom line you believe in a relatively new belief that is anti-Christ....anti-scripture. So much so that they had to write their on Bible.

Your first thought when someone gives you a scripture is, how can I twist that, how can I prove that wrong.

I have seen them do it, huddle together and think of ways to twist the scriptures and prove scriptures wrong. Then they are not looking at their Bible. Every Jehovah’s witness I have known has two Bibles.
And they spend more time in the KJV trying to think of ways to prove it wrong.

My aunt was Jehovah's Witness and I have seen and heard them practice how to deceive people so they could get their foot in the door.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Nope, you will burn in Hell because you disagree with Christ, the Apostles, and Christian teachings all through history.

Did you forget the Reformation?

You will burn in Hell because you have worked so hard to twist the scriptures and your efforts can cause others to go to Hell.

I didn't realize that I had that much power. Do you mean to say that I have the power to send people to hell? Whatever happened to saved by faith alone?

I have already explained all this so there is nothing else to say.
But final judgment is up to Christ, not me.....Do you think Christ will find humor in the fact that you lead other people to Hell. Sizzle! Sizzle!

And yet you couldn't help yourself. Why is that? Why did you say that you had nothing else to say right before you said something else? Confused much?

You sound like someone with a "religious" belief. What is a "religious" belief? A religious belief is a tenet that one affirms, true or not, in order to remain a member of a church or denomination. A man who attains a religious belief can never be corrected for two reasons: 1) To recant is a sign of disloyalty and perhaps even religious disaffiliation. Decisions to leave are not easy to do. 2) Since the man did not come to his belief through reason and good judgment, he will not recant based on reason. Such beliefs are immune to correction.

Eternal torture is one of those "religious beliefs", not based on the Bible or sound reason, but rather a dogma of a religion. The idea of eternal torment is shared by Judaism. Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Zoroastrianism. Fear-based religion anyone?

Most people such as yourself don't study the Bible for what it says; you seek out ways to bolster your religious dogma. And as we have seen, you call down fire from heaven onto those who aren't members of your religion.

 

[Grailhunter]

I didn't realize that I had that much power. Do you mean to say that I have the power to send people to hell? Whatever happened to saved by faith alone?

You and I cannot judge anyone to Hell. But it is not about power.

The Pagans don't have much power. Wiccans do not have much power, same thing goes for Voodoo or OSAS. It all about getting some one to believe in something that is evil or even wrong information and then how they act on those lies....that can get them sent to the fiery Hell of eternal punishment. And if you are responsible for that, you may not only go to Hell but be awarded the worst level.

 

[Grailhunter]

And yet you couldn't help yourself. Why is that? Why did you say that you had nothing else to say right before you said something else? Confused much?

You right, don't talk to me no more.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You and I cannot judge anyone to Hell. But it is not about power.

The Pagans don't have much power. Wiccans do not have much power, same thing goes for Voodoo or OSAS. It all about getting some one to believe in something that is evil or even wrong information and then how they act on those lies....that can get them sent to the fiery Hell of eternal punishment. And if you are responsible for that, you may not only go to Hell but be awarded the worst level.

Your view is not tenable since knowledge of hell has no bearing on salvation at all. Salvation isn't avoiding hell, it's being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Those whom the Holy Spirit is sanctifying will love God and have the proper attitude toward God, even if he or she has never even heard that hell exists. Your fears are unjustified. You wrongly believe that the threat of hell must exist in order to encourage piety. But you are wrong.

The Pharisees made the same mistake you are making. They believed that apart from the Law of Moses, a person would have no incentive to act righteously. Paul argued against this religious belief, saying that those who have been baptized into Christ, understand the clear implications of baptism and will try to avoid sin for that reason.

You believe the same sort of thing, telling me that one must be constantly in fear of hellfire in order to live a pious life. But that isn't true. As Paul argued, those who are baptized into Christ, and fully understand the implications of that, will no longer live in sin. The gospel is not a fear-based message; it is a good news message.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You right, don't talk to me no more.

Take the requisite amount of time to pray and think about it.

 

[Grailhunter]

Your view is not tenable since knowledge of hell has no bearing on salvation at all. Salvation isn't avoiding hell, it's being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Those whom the Holy Spirit is sanctifying will love God and have the proper attitude toward God, even if he or she has never even heard that hell exists. Your fears are unjustified. You wrongly believe that the threat of hell must exist in order to encourage piety. But you are wrong.

The Pharisees made the same mistake you are making. They believed that apart from the Law of Moses, a person would have no incentive to act righteously. Paul argued against this religious belief, saying that those who have been baptized into Christ, understand the clear implications of baptism and will try to avoid sin for that reason.

You believe the same sort of thing, telling me that one must be constantly in fear of hellfire in order to live a pious life. But that isn't true. As Paul argued, those who are baptized into Christ, and fully understand the implications of that, will no longer live in sin. The gospel is not a fear-based message; it is a good news message.

Can't resist talking to me? LOL That is OK, I am kind of irresistible. LOL

When you are debating something in a text form the whole perspective cannot be presented all at once, so it is easy to lose sight of the whole.

It is true that humans be humans....if there is no ramifications for sins there is little concern.
But no, Christianity is not all about the fear of Hell.

And in the deeper context the fire of Hell, the torture of Hell, and the horrors of Hell, may not be imaginable by the human mind. Same thing goes for Heaven, can we comprehend Heaven? This is a question now....not necessarily a fact....

Is it possible they chose the image of fire because it was the worst thing that the people would understand? God has to convey information to us at the level that we can understand. It is at least as bad as fire, but they could not describe some thing worse than fire and burning in fire for eternity. Maybe it is a lot worse than fire! That is only speculation. But the eternal aspect of Hell is a fact.

Now if you are like the Jehovah Witnesses and do not believe that Yeshua is a God then you have no hope of salvation. You are simply not saved.

If you do not believe in Hell....as in an eternal fiery torment.....and you keep it to yourself....You would just be surprised in the end when you found out the truth. You could be saved....just shocked. But if you preach there is no eternal fiery punishment then you are preaching a lie. And according to the Bible you are cursed. If you read post 790 you will see that Christianity never heard of your belief....it is a relatively new heresy.

Then if you get some to believe like you do and they act on it in such away that it leads them to Hell, you are responsible. Preaching a lie and responsible for lost souls.

Not everyone has been involved with Christianity or raised in a Christian family their whole life. Some come to Christ a complete mess. Loving their sinful life style...it can be anything from drugs to homosexuality, to child molestation. And they may like that lifestyle. If you get them to believe that the punishment is not all that bad, they may call it an acceptable choice, an acceptable trade off and continue their sinful lifestyle...in the end they will find out that Hell is real and they will be punished with unimaginable agony for eternity....and you caused it. So then you could be punished...even worse than them. How many people will you lead to Hell? How many levels does Hell have and what is the worst? Do you want to find out?

Bottom line your beliefs are a lie and no good can come of it.

I know the truth and my best advice to you is to repent. But my ministry is not like a preacher…not my responisbilty to get you to believe…I am the Johnny Appleseed of Truth that is my minstry….my ministry works like Christ described as casting seeds of truth. My responsibility is to know the truth and give the truth….not my responsibility if you do not believe the truth. My duty is done, the rest is between you and God and you and God will settle up in the end.

 

[Jay Ross]

What do you think of this parable? How does it apply?

Matthew 25:14-30
14 “For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. 16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them. 20 The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

22 “Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’

26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It is the foretelling of the future story of how Satan will empower his good and faithful servants with large sums of money dependent on their ability to trade with the money given to them to impede the Everlasting Kingdom of God that is going to be established on the face of the earth while Satan is imprisoned for 1,000 years, along with the others judged at the same time, e.g., the four beasts, the little horn/False Prophet and the kings of the earth, in the Bottomless Pit where Satan and the other heavenly hosts, i.e. fallen angels, will have no ability to influence people to manifest their wicked schemes.

However, after the Bottomless pit is unlock and the fallen heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth are able to rise up out of the Bottomless pit, they all will, during the Little while period, attempt to overcome God's Everlasting Kingdom with much great tribulation and murder. The wicked fallen heavenly host will influence people once more so that their plans will materialise to overcome the Everlasting Kingdom through their manifesting their powers through the people of the sea.

The man who goes away for a time is Satan and not Christ as many Christian now believe. It is Satan who wants to harvest the souls of people where he did not scatter the seeds, prepared the soil of the fields where the seed was scattered or even watered the fields so that the seed could come into maturity to produce more seeds to be planted.

Hell is the place where people will end up because they have rejected an intimate relationship with God whereby the Accept God as their King over them.

Shalom

 

[Keiw]

You seem to have a terrible problem. You call our Bible errors and Satanic, and then you reject your own JW NWT perfectly clear doctrine that Jesus is God. You don't seem to have any Bible except your own personal bible.

John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God".

Every Israelite knew100% the Messiah has a God just like us-Psalm 45:7--so he was not saying what you think. There is a whole bible Jack.

 

[Brakelite]

I trust in Christ, the Apostles, all of Christian history....which my education is based on.

Again your belief started with Charles Taze Russell. Early Christian writers that were disciples of the Apostles do not reflect your beliefs. The first 300 years of Christian history does not reflect your belief. The Ecumenical Councils do not reflect your belief. The Catholic Church does not reflect that. Martin Luther and the Protestant reform does not reflect your belief.

Bottom line you believe in a relatively new belief that is anti-Christ....anti-scripture. So much so that they had to write their on Bible.

Your first thought when someone gives you a scripture is, how can I twist that, how can I prove that wrong.

I have seen them do it, huddle together and think of ways to twist the scriptures and prove scriptures wrong. Then they are not looking at their Bible. Every Jehovah’s witness I have known has two Bibles.
And they spend more time in the KJV trying to think of ways to prove it wrong.

My aunt was Jehovah's Witness and I have seen and heard them practice how to deceive people so they could get their foot in the door.

I am not JW, nor have I based my beliefs on their teachings, but on the testimony of scripture. I disagree with JWs on many points, but on the subject of eternal torment, they are correct. Not an is universalist, as I believe you suggested earlier in the thread I believe scripture speaks quite clearly and abundantly of an annihilation of the wicked, a total destruction of all things evil that his universe is fully clean and clear of all wickedness, rather than your interpretation which immortalises sin and sinners. It frankly shocks me that seemingly mature Christians, even after being given scriptural evidence, think so little of their God that they seek to attribute to Him a character reflective of the worst of tyrants and despots.

 

[Grailhunter]

I am not JW, nor have I based my beliefs on their teachings, but on the testimony of scripture. I disagree with JWs on many points, but on the subject of eternal torment, they are correct. Not an is universalist, as I believe you suggested earlier in the thread I believe scripture speaks quite clearly and abundantly of an annihilation of the wicked, a total destruction of all things evil that his universe is fully clean and clear of all wickedness, rather than your interpretation which immortalises sin and sinners. It frankly shocks me that seemingly mature Christians, even after being given scriptural evidence, think so little of their God that they seek to attribute to Him a character reflective of the worst of tyrants and despots.

Again Christianity never gave any indication they even knew of such a belief. LOL This is just too stupid! The funny thing is if some one came delaring such a moronic thing in the Middle Ages, they would have been declared witches and burnt at the stake LOL

And again it is a relatively new heracy, complete with its own Bible.
We have talked about this enough
I feel like I am walking through a cesspool!
Good luck