The Impassibility of God.

[StanJ]

The topic title has begun to game interest and momentum on Christian forums so I would like to have a discussion on whether or not people accept that God is Impassible.

http://www.arbca.com/divine-impassibility

 

[junobet]

The topic title has begun to game interest and momentum on Christian forums so I would like to have a discussion on whether or not people accept that God is Impassible.

http://www.arbca.com/divine-impassibility

Divine Impassibility is an interesting topic indeed, especially seeing that the doctrine of God’s impassibility has come into question a lot. Many theologians find it to be grounded in Greek metaphysics rather than the Bible, which tells us about Christ’s passion at great length:

"It seems increasingly obvious that the Greek philosophical inheritance in traditional theology was adopted without the necessary critical effect of the central Christian insight into the divine nature: the love of God revealed in the cross of Christ. For the Greeks, suffering implied deficiency of being, weakness, subjection, instability. But the cross shows us a God who suffers out of the fullness of his being because he is love. He does not suffer against his will, but willingly undertakes to suffer with and for those he loves. His suffering does not deflect him from his purpose, but accomplishes his purpose. His transcendence does not keep him aloof from the world, but as transcendent love appears in the depth of his self-sacrificing involvement in the world. Finally, if Christians know anything about God from the cross, it is that 'the weakness of God is stronger than men' (1 Cor. 1:25). The cross does not make God a helpless victim of evil, but is the secret of his power and his triumph over evil. This is why 'only the suffering God can help'.[89]"



https://theologicalstudies.org.uk/article_god_bauckham.html

 

[StanJ]

Divine Impassibility is an interesting topic indeed, especially seeing that the doctrine of God’s impassibility has come into question a lot. Many theologians find it to be grounded in Greek metaphysics rather than the Bible, which tells us about Christ’s passion at great length:

"It seems increasingly obvious that the Greek philosophical inheritance in traditional theology was adopted without the necessary critical effect of the central Christian insight into the divine nature: the love of God revealed in the cross of Christ. For the Greeks, suffering implied deficiency of being, weakness, subjection, instability. But the cross shows us a God who suffers out of the fullness of his being because he is love. He does not suffer against his will, but willingly undertakes to suffer with and for those he loves. His suffering does not deflect him from his purpose, but accomplishes his purpose. His transcendence does not keep him aloof from the world, but as transcendent love appears in the depth of his self-sacrificing involvement in the world. Finally, if Christians know anything about God from the cross, it is that 'the weakness of God is stronger than men' (1 Cor. 1:25). The cross does not make God a helpless victim of evil, but is the secret of his power and his triumph over evil. This is why 'only the suffering God can help'.[89]"


https://theologicalstudies.org.uk/article_god_bauckham.html

Good article, so do you think God is impassible?

 

[Stranger]

StanJ

It is impossible that God is impassible. How could He love or hate?

Stranger

 

[junobet]

Good article, so do you think God is impassible?

As I see it, Moltmann’s views, that (amongst others) were layed out in this article, make a lot of sense, not just on a theoretical philosophical/theological level but also on the grounds of my personal experience of faith:
If you catch me in a dark and gloomy mood, I may indeed lament that God is utterly impassible in the sense of being utterly indifferent to this world’s darkness and misery. But – thank God - whenever I’ve been in such a mood, my faith in Christ kicked in and I saw that in all this suffering there’s still this light: God chose to be right here with us in our human suffering, He’ll carry us through and His resurrection gives us trust and hope that in the end all will be well.
​How about you? Would you disagree with Moltmann, when He says that Christians should not speak of a God incapable of suffering?

“A shattering expression of the theologia crucis which is suggested in the rabbinic theology of God’s humiliation of himself is to be found in Night, a book written by E. Wiesel, a survivor of Auschwitz:
The SS hanged two Jewish men and a youth in front of the whole camp. The men died quickly, but the death throes of the youth lasted for half an hour. ‘Where is God? Where is he?’ someone asked behind me. As the youth still hung in torment for a long time, I heard the man call again, ‘Where is God now?’ And I heard a voice in myself answer: ‘Where is he? He is here. He is hanging there on the gallows…’
Any other answer would be blasphemy. There cannot be any other Christian answer to the question of this torment. To speak here of a God who could not suffer would make God a demon. To speak here of an absolute God would make God an annihilating nothingness. To speak here of an indifferent God would condemn men to indifference.”

(Jurgen Moltmann, The Crucified God, p 273-274, quoted from http://moltmanniac.com/theology-after-auschwitz/)

 

[StanJ]

StanJ

It is impossible that God is impassible. How could He love or hate?

Stranger

You need to delve into the definition of impassibility more because I don't think you're understanding what it means.

 

[StanJ]

As I see it, Moltmann’s views, that (amongst others) were layed out in this article, make a lot of sense, not just on a theoretical philosophical/theological level but also on the grounds of my personal experience of faith:[/size][/size][/size]
If you catch me in a dark and gloomy mood, I may indeed lament that God is utterly impassible in the sense of being utterly indifferent to this world’s darkness and misery. But – thank God - whenever I’ve been in such a mood, my faith in Christ kicked in and I saw that in all this suffering there’s still this light: God chose to be right here with us in our human suffering, He’ll carry us through and His resurrection gives us trust and hope that in the end all will be well.[/size]
​How about you? Would you disagree with Moltmann, when He says that Christians should not speak of a God incapable of suffering? [/size][/size]

“[/size]A shattering expression of the theologia crucis which is suggested in the rabbinic theology of God’s humiliation of himself is to be found in Night, a book written by E. Wiesel, a survivor of Auschwitz:[/size]
The SS hanged two Jewish men and a youth in front of the whole camp. The men died quickly, but the death throes of the youth lasted for half an hour. ‘Where is God? Where is he?’ someone asked behind me. As the youth still hung in torment for a long time, I heard the man call again, ‘Where is God now?’ And I heard a voice in myself answer: ‘Where is he? He is here. He is hanging there on the gallows…’[/size]
Any other answer would be blasphemy. There cannot be any other Christian answer to the question of this torment. To speak here of a God who could not suffer would make God a demon. To speak here of an absolute God would make God an annihilating nothingness. To speak here of an indifferent God would condemn men to indifference.”[/size]
(Jurgen Moltmann, The Crucified God, p 273-274, quoted from http://moltmanniac.com/theology-after-auschwitz/)[/size]

Again in my opinion it is of paramount importance that we truly understand what impassibility means as far as God is concerned. It definitely does not make him an uncaring or vindictive God it just means that when it comes to the negative side of our emotions and carnal nature he does not relate to our feelings with the same feelings, regardless of the hyperbole in Scripture.

 

[Stranger]

You need to delve into the definition of impassibility more because I don't think you're understanding what it means.

From Websters dictionary: "impassible"--- 1a) incapable of suffering or of experiencing pain, 1b.)inaccessible to injury, 2.) incapable of feeling

As I said, this is impossible with God. God who loves, hates, feels, and grieves cannot be impassible. If you disagree then show me where I am wrong. If you have a different definition to go by then show that.

Stranger

 

[justaname]

Are we speaking only of the Father and not of the Son? The Son was fully human, so his potentiality was not limited in emotions. It is not a sin to feel emotions, the sin steps in through thought and action. This must be only theology proper...

How do we explain wrath or the many times the Bible states God was stirred to anger? How do we explain God's holy jealousy or his hatred of wickedness?

They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked him to anger. - Deuteronomy 32:16

If God is impassable concerning wickedness and the wicked that makes him indifferent with evil and evil doers. Yet this is the Scripture:

16 There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers. - Proverbs 6:16-19

Not so sure about this doctrine although admittedly I have not studied it much. Perhaps you can do a better job setting a definition, then explaining it and your position concerning it if you choose to further the discussion.

 

[StanJ]

http://www.theopedia.com/Impassibility_of_God

 

[StanJ]

From Websters dictionary: "impassible"--- 1a) incapable of suffering or of experiencing pain, 1b.)inaccessible to injury, 2.) incapable of feeling
As I said, this is impossible with God. God who loves, hates, feels, and grieves cannot be impassible. If you disagree then show me where I am wrong. If you have a different definition to go by then show that.
Stranger

God IS love, so everything he does towards us is based on love. I have already shown you how you were wrong. If your mindset is that God is hateful and vindictive then you need to read the Bible more unless the Holy Spirit help you to see the true God of the Bible. Is John 3:16 truthful or not?

 

[Stranger]

God IS love, so everything he does towards us is based on love. I have already shown you how you were wrong. If your mindset is that God is hateful and vindictive then you need to read the Bible more unless the Holy Spirit help you to see the true God of the Bible. Is John 3:16 truthful or not?

I don't remember where you showed me I was wrong. My mindset is as I said in my reply which is that God loves, hates, feels and grieves. I did not say as you said I did that God is hateful and vindictive.

"Vengeance is mine saith the Lord", remember.

Yes God so loved the world. And God hated Esau. Correct?

You didn't address what I said that God cannot be impassible.

Stranger

 

[StanJ]

I don't remember where you showed me I was wrong. My mindset is as I said in my reply which is that God loves, hates, feels and grieves. I did not say as you said I did that God is hateful and vindictive.

"Vengeance is mine saith the Lord", remember.

Yes God so loved the world. And God hated Esau. Correct?

You didn't address what I said that God cannot be impassible.

Stranger

You take everything you read as literal when much of the wording when it comes to God hating etc.. is hyperbole.
Not everything in the Bible is to be taken literally nor does it literally means what is written. If you don't know that you can't see that then the onus is on you to ask the Holy Spirit to help you.

 

[Stranger]

You take everything you read as literal when much of the wording when it comes to God hating etc.. is hyperbole.
Not everything in the Bible is to be taken literally nor does it literally means what is written. If you don't know that you can't see that then the onus is on you to ask the Holy Spirit to help you.

You take 'God is love' as literal. Don't you? The same Book (The Bible) that says that, says God can hate also. I can see with you that it is a hyperbole if you don't want to believe it. That makes interpretation easy. Whatever you agree with is literal. What you don't, is explained away as hyperbole.

Stranger

 

[junobet]

Again in my opinion it is of paramount importance that we truly understand what impassibility means as far as God is concerned. It definitely does not make him an uncaring or vindictive God it just means that when it comes to the negative side of our emotions and carnal nature he does not relate to our feelings with the same feelings, regardless of the hyperbole in Scripture.

Wow, you keep surprising me, Stan! Given our previous discussions I would have thought that regarding anything in the Bible as hyperbole or mere anthropomorphism is much more down my alley than yours. Contrary to Stranger I agree with you that a lot in the Bible is just that, but that the Statement “God is love” (1 John 4:8) is not. God’s ultimate self-revelation in Jesus Christ, in the light of which the entire Bible needs to be interpreted, gives evidence of that. Perfect love involves absolute compassion and “there is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends” (John 15:13). I suppose it’s due to our differing Christologies that you don’t see Christ’s Passion as a clear indicator for God’s ability to suffer. That said: to an extend I even agree with you that God is impassable in that He is independent of His creation. His love is not of the needy but of the self-giving kind.

 

[StanJ]

Wow, you keep surprising me, Stan! Given our previous discussions I would have thought that regarding anything in the Bible as hyperbole or mere anthropomorphism is much more down my alley than yours. Contrary to Stranger I agree with you that a lot in the Bible is just that, but that the Statement “God is love” (1 John 4:8) is not. God’s ultimate self-revelation in Jesus Christ, in the light of which the entire Bible needs to be interpreted, gives evidence of that. Perfect love involves absolute compassion and “there is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends” (John 15:13). I suppose it’s due to our differing Christologies that you don’t see Christ’s Passion as a clear indicator for God’s ability to suffer. That said: to an extend I even agree with you that God is impassable in that He is independent of His creation. His love is not of the needy but of the self-giving kind.

LOL...That's what happens when you judge a person by one subject. In any event I don't believe that God suffered on the cross I believe that Jesus suffered on the cross and is indicated by the fact that he cried out "my God my God why have you forsaken me?" God did not take on sin, but his only begotten son did.

 

[StanJ]

You take 'God is love' as literal. Don't you? The same Book (The Bible) that says that, says God can hate also. I can see with you that it is a hyperbole if you don't want to believe it. That makes interpretation easy. Whatever you agree with is literal. What you don't, is explained away as hyperbole.
Stranger

That's right God is love is literal because he is love. He is not the opposite of love is not contrary to love and he does not possess attributes that do not reflect love. I'm sorry you have a hard time understanding this that's the way it is. When you understand what impassibility yes then you understand the words that are used to describe God have to be hyperbole unless you really believe that God calls on us to hate our family? Now do you believe that God really wants us to hate our family?

 

[mjrhealth]

(The Bible) that says that, says God can hate also

God cant hae as Stan said God is love, love cant hate. The bible was written by men and should be read as such.

 

[Stranger]

That's right God is love is literal because he is love. He is not the opposite of love is not contrary to love and he does not possess attributes that do not reflect love. I'm sorry you have a hard time understanding this that's the way it is. When you understand what impassibility yes then you understand the words that are used to describe God have to be hyperbole unless you really believe that God calls on us to hate our family? Now do you believe that God really wants us to hate our family?

Yes, God is love. And God does hate that which is against that which He loves. It is impossible to be able to love and not hate. We have these attributes or characteristics because God does. I don't have a problem understanding this at all.

God does not call on us to hate our family, just to hate our family. But, when family comes between you and God or Christ, then yes He does call on us to hate our family no matter who it is. (Luke 14:26) " If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

God cant hae as Stan said God is love, love cant hate. The bible was written by men and should be read as such.

I read the Bible as the Word of God for He wrote it.

Stranger