"The 'Implied' meaning should be obvious!" (A Dangerous Statement)

[Willie T]

Ha, we shouldn't hold our breath on that one, lol. It used to be nothing but guilt and shame that I have been blessed beyond measure (I am considered lower middle class). Still very, very rich compared to most of the world. Those feelings of guilt and shame over my bounty are no longer there, they have been replaced by gratitude instead, and a generous heart. Sometimes I wish I were born in a 3rd world country so as to be abundantly grateful for the smallest of blessings. Ah, the 1st will be last, and the last shall be 1st... we on the West are rich indeed...wonder what would happen if we all DID sell all we have and give to the poor? Won't happen, even with the very, very rich Christian. We are spoiled rotten.

What would happen? Quite frankly, after a few months of the same mismanagement of money most of "The Poor" has always shown, we would ALL be broke for the rest of our lives.

 

[Episkopos]

What you say seems self evident, but then this isn't the only case where Jesus points out that one must sell everything in order to enter into the kingdom. The tax collector jumps up from his pile of money and follows Christ without a thought. In Luke's gospel, it is only those who are followers who can sell everything and give the proceeds to the poor. It simply isn't possible for anyone else to be a follower.

The supreme irony is in noting that the rich young ruler comprehends his predicament. He sees that he can't part with his precious possessions, and this bothers him. The modern day Christian doesn't seem to be bothered by the ramifications of this decision in the slightest. A bit cavalier, to say the least.

If we look at the parables that follow, getting rid of one's possessions isn't a means of following Christ, but a consequence of discovering the kingdom. The tax collector recognizes the king. He sees the personification of Life itself standing in front of him, and he doesn't need to think about it. The rich young ruler recognizes something in Christ's words that tear at his heart, but not enough to separate him from his possessions. The modern day Christian naturally assumes they have been given the kingdom because the kingdom is merely a means of having "all these things" added to them. Who really needs to think about where their next meal is coming from when they have a credit card or a bank account? There is no reason for Jesus to suggest refraining from wondering where your next meal is coming from when you've got some folding money in your pockets. It's pure gibberish.

"for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth...
Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth....And they all with one consent began to make excuse...whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he CANNOT be my disciple." - Luke 12:15,18,33

Great post. It is when we think we understand the plain meaning of the bible, and have already met it's conditions, that the subversion of the truth begins. That is where the danger lies.

People sit in a pew to listen to an indoctrinating message that subverts the truth at least partway...and then these say they have "done church."

The sheer disconnect between the bible and modern practice should ring alarm bells.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Deuteronomy 15:11
For there will never cease to be poor in the land; that is why I am commanding you to open wide your hand to your brother and to the poor and needy in your land.

Matthew 26:11
The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have Me.

Mark 14:7
The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them whenever you want. But you will not always have Me.

 

[Willie T]

When our father died, my brother and I both received an inheritance. He got about twice as much as I did.

Today, seven years later, he is stone, cold broke again (as he always was [my Dad always supported him... gave him a house, bought him several trucks, and paid most of his bills.]). I, on the other hand, have seen a doubling of the much lesser amount Dad left me.

We are to be wise and make money, consistently, so that we can always "help" the poor...… but it is pure ignorance to give them everything we have, so that we are then also destitute, begging from other working people. And we should NEVER read that kind of nonsense into the stories of the Bible...… as though Christians are required to be poor.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

2. Decontextualizing. Ignoring the full historical and literary contexts, and often the individual narrative, people concentrate on small units only and Thus, miss interpretational clues. If you decontextualize enough, you can make almost any part of Scripture say anything you want it to.

3. Selectivity. This is analogous to decontextualizing. It involves picking and choosing specific words and phrases to concentrate on, ignoring the others, and ignoring the overall sweep of the passage being studied. Instead of balancing the parts and the whole, it ignores some of the parts and the whole entirely.

These two especially will be ignored for many people's theology depends on them.

 

[John Caldwell]

These two especially will be ignored for many people's theology depends on them.

I think these two most often (perhaps always) occur when people turn to Scripture to validate theology rather than deriving theology from Scripture. It happens much more than it should. Biblical illiteracy is a problem in our churches today.

 

[Hidden In Him]

They Thus, teach us a lot — but what they directly teach us does not systematically include personal ethics. For that area of life, we must turn elsewhere in the Scriptures, to the various places where personal ethics are actually taught categorically and explicitly. The richness and variety of the Scriptures must be understood as our ally — a welcome resource, never a complicated burden.

What's interesting is that the golden rule is actually THE teaching that was to be applied to every situation when it came to personal ethics, and it takes no digging in the Bible whatsoever. All it takes is meditating on this one principle continually so as not to forget to apply it (James 1:23-25). Yet many instead search for "what to do" thru pages upon pages of scripture like they're searching for a needle in a haystack, LoL.

Christians ethics is not rocket science, it's really quite simple. We just make it out to be much more complicated than it is because we don't get a lot of good preaching in most churches today. Instead the focus is on individual issues all the time...

It's like how, if you memorize what a real bill looks like and keep it ever before you, you don't have to go to great lengths trying to memorize 100 different counterfeits.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I disagree with this. The message of the bible is on different levels. Most people understand the literal part. But fewer and fewer will understand the deeper truth. It is a real problem when you limit the word to what can be apprehended with the carnal mind.

God is deeper than men.(Otherwise go read a man-made book...or a newspaper)

There is a lot more depth to the bible than the OP suggests.

I was initially reading it as addressing this issue as well, Episkopos, but I think the writer is actually addressing more the problem of novices with very little educational background in the word trying to "read into" texts for what to do about specific situations, i.e. and thus forcing them to fit into what they interpret to be proper applications to their ethical dilemmas.

 

[Hidden In Him]

(I am considered lower middle class). Still very, very rich compared to most of the world.

Always good to remember this. In the last year I have been living check-to-check, with very little left over, yet I have found a way to be grateful nonetheless.

Makes me all the MORE grateful when I remember how the lifestyle I live compares with people in Central America, or those who lived back during New Testament times : )

 

[Nancy]

Always good to remember this. In the last year I have been living check-to-check, with very little left over, yet I have found a way to be grateful nonetheless.

Makes me all the MORE grateful when I remember how the lifestyle I live compares with people in Central America, or those who lived back during New Testament times : )

"Makes me all the MORE grateful when I remember how the lifestyle I live compares with people in Central America, or those who lived back during New Testament times"
For sure! Or, even the homeless around us always looking for an empty refrigerator box to sleep in, they will even fight over that simple cardboard box. Yeah, we have a ton to be grateful for.

 

[brakelite]

What Jesus revealed in the narrative concerning the rich young ruler who had observed "all the commandments since his youth", yet recognised he still lacked something, was the fact that he had not in fact kept all the commandments, the Lord himself revealing the secret.. He was covetous. And that is the lesson for us. We can be rich... Or we can be poor... But we can all be covetous.

 

[Episkopos]

I was initially reading it as addressing this issue as well, Episkopos, but I think the writer is actually addressing more the problem of novices with very little educational background in the word trying to "read into" texts for what to do about specific situations, i.e. and thus forcing them to fit into what they interpret to be proper applications to their ethical dilemmas.

True! But that is a sword that cuts both ways. Sometimes the novice can see things that careful traditional study can't even imagine.

It the question of openness over agenda.

 

[amadeus]

Ask anyone on this forum to give up the expensive electronics that bring them here, and see how well they jump to comply. (And that says nothing of their Air Conditioned homes and cars.... and the hundred other luxuries they own.)

Your question to anyone here points out that some, or even all, of us may still have that old man nature that wants to keep his physical comforts and advantages... no matter what God says. Does not God really want us to enjoy all the 'good' things available? Is it not possible we don't always really know [and don't want to know] what is 'good' for us as opposed to what God knows that we need in order to do what He expects? Not everyone needs to get rid of all his comforts and advantages, but the rich young ruler did. But... some of us may need to do or to be able to do what he needed to do.

If we are being led by the Holy Spirit and we are always recognizing His voice, and that voice says to get rid of all of it, would we not simply obey without asking a bunch of questions? People really in love with God and really being led by the Holy Spirit certainly would! People in delusion would have a serious problem, wouldn't they?

What did Mary do when the angel of the Lord told her she was, without knowing a man, going to have a child, the Son of the Highest? Did she go against God because of her carnal doubts?
What did Joseph do when God gave him a dream about what was happening to his betrothed? Did he say, no, she was simply unfaithful to me and should suffer the consequences? Were not those bigger issues to them in their physical circumstances than our physical comfort and advantages? Were not the two of them just as likely to doubt God in their flesh as any of us? But.. they, both of them, believed God!

Consider the words of Job in the midst of his worst trials:

"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." Job 1:21

 

[Willie T]

Your question to anyone here points out that some, or even all, of us may still have that old man nature that wants to keep his physical comforts and advantages... no matter what God says. Does not God really want us to enjoy all the 'good' things available? Is it not possible we don't always really know [and don't want to know] what is 'good' for us as opposed to what God knows that we need in order to do what He expects? Not everyone needs to get rid of all his comforts and advantages, but the rich young ruler did. But... some of us may need to do or to be able to do what he needed to do.

If we are being led by the Holy Spirit and we are always recognizing His voice, and that voice says to get rid of all of it, would we not simply obey without asking a bunch of questions? People really in love with God and really being led by the Holy Spirit certainly would! People in delusion would have a serious problem, wouldn't they?

What did Mary do when the angel of the Lord told her she was, without knowing a man, going to have a child, the Son of the Highest? Did she go against God because of her carnal doubts?
What did Joseph do when God gave him a dream about what was happening to his betrothed? Did he say, no, she was simply unfaithful to me and should suffer the consequences? Were not those bigger issues to them in their physical circumstances than our physical comfort and advantages? Were not the two of them just as likely to doubt God in their flesh as any of us? But.. they, both of them, believed God!

Consider the words of Job in the midst of his worst trials:

"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." Job 1:21

Unfortunately, I have read right here, "The afflictions I suffer, prove how righteous I am." I'm serious, some people actually believe that bunk.

 

[shnarkle]

Ask anyone on this forum to give up the expensive electronics that bring them here, and see how well they jump to comply. (And that says nothing of their Air Conditioned homes and cars.... and the hundred other luxuries they own.)

I'm not sure I see what your point is here. Are you spotlighting that no one here is an actual follower of Christ, or are you pointing out that when Christ says no one can be his disciple unless they sell everything, he's really saying you don't have to sell anything to be his follower?

I like to use whatever the logic is to apply this to Satan rather than Mammon. In other words, whatever the argument is in regards to Mammon (the personification of money), simply apply it to Satan as well.

Jesus says, you cannot serve God and Mammon, but everyone balks and says, it's perfectly okay to serve Mammon for all sorts of reasons. I say, there's no essential or effective difference in serving Satan. The reason Christ uses Mammon instead of Satan is because he knows our heart.

 

[shnarkle]

The sheer disconnect between the bible and modern practice should ring alarm bells.

No doubt that's a big problem, but where it really began to bother me was when I began to identify with the rich young ruler. The odd thing was it was while I was living on the street with basically nothing that it hit me. The reason being that I was striving to acquire all that stuff. I was telling myself that I wasn't going to be like everyone else.

Then one day many years later, I was sitting in the dining room of my brand new home, and I began to weep uncontrollably. I suddenly realized that it didn't matter what I acquired, it wasn't going to make me happy. I had been striving for so many years to "have it all", and there I was with the American Dream. The brand new house with the white picket fence, the two car garage with two cars, a sailboat, motorcycles, etc. etc. etc.

I lived with it for a few years, and tried to make the best of it. Fast forward another ten years, and I'm working to get rid of everything. Not as a means of salvation or even so I can follow Christ, but because I can see that I simply don't have any desire to take care of all this crap for one second longer. I just have to get rid of it. I literally dream of how good it was to be back living on the street. I spent over a decade living on the street, and loved it.

I see now that I don't actually need money, but especially all of this useless junk cluttering up my life, to live an abundant life. It sounds completely insane, but I've gotten to a point in my life where I don't care what it sounds like anymore. I have to go with what works for me, and taking care of a whole lot of garbage isn't my thing anymore.

I'm not renouncing material possessions. I'm simply taking out the garbage, and it's beginning to all look like garbage.

 

[shnarkle]

Sometimes the novice can see things that careful traditional study can't even imagine.

It the question over openness over agenda.

I can't count how many times I've been sitting in some Wednesday evening bible study as some pastor drones on about something obvious only to have someone who doesn't know much of anything about scripture ask a question, or make a point that absolutely blows my mind. I was in a group one time, and someone had invited an atheist along, and he noticed something about the text we were reading that had me scratching my head for the next few weeks. He had no prior familiarity with the text whatsoever, and his comment made me realize that I had been inculcated into these texts. I had all sorts of preconceived ideas about what I was reading. I was reading these texts with a perspective that was the result of a lot of brainwashing and inculcation, and this atheist with no familiarity with these texts whatsoever was noticing something that my preconceived ideas prevented me from seeing.

 

[shnarkle]

"Makes me all the MORE grateful when I remember how the lifestyle I live compares with people in Central America, or those who lived back during New Testament times"
For sure! Or, even the homeless around us always looking for an empty refrigerator box to sleep in, they will even fight over that simple cardboard box. Yeah, we have a ton to be grateful for.

Whenever I hear this, I am reminded of something Victor Frankl said in his book Man's Search For Meaning. He lost everything, and after spending quite a while in Nazi concentration camp, wrote this book about the whole ordeal. He lost his entire family, and things were so horrific, that he once exchanged his place in the work train with someone who was going to the gas chamber. For some reason, the train ended up going to a work site while the other one went to the gas chamber instead. He would always find something to be grateful for every day. If there was one pea in his "soup" he was grateful. If his feet weren't frostbitten, he was grateful. Then he said something that has become etched in my brain. He noticed when he came to America that people has these things called a "Gratitude List", and he marveled at how people had hundreds o things to be grateful for, and yet they felt the need to keep this list so they wouldn't be so depressed. His conclusion? We're all spoiled rotten.

 

[shnarkle]

What would happen? Quite frankly, after a few months of the same mismanagement of money most of "The Poor" has always shown, we would ALL be broke for the rest of our lives.

My grandmother used to say, "Any damn fool can make a million dollars. It takes someone with some sense to hold onto it".

 

[shnarkle]

Always good to remember this. In the last year I have been living check-to-check, with very little left over, yet I have found a way to be grateful nonetheless.

This is what makes life worth living. It shows that deep down, we want to live a good life. So many people get down on themselves, and the next thing they know they're thinking about blowing their brains out. Deep down they don't really want to do this, but this sick twisted world makes them think it's a great idea. Some don't realize this until it's too late while others get to that place Paul talks about where they come face to face with Satan, and suddenly realize that they're on the wrong path, and decide to make a change for the better.

Makes me all the MORE grateful when I remember how the lifestyle I live compares with people in Central America, or those who lived back during New Testament times : )

I do this as well, but lately it's been bothering me because I can see how I'm really no different than that Pharisee in the temple comparing himself to the lowly sinner in the back who can't lift his head up.