The Influence of Islam on Christendom

[Nancy]

@Episkopos @Nancy





I have encountered at least two Christian groups with a similar policy... [and maybe a third].

I dealt with one on the Internet for a long time being a member of their forum without joining their church.
[Actually they would not have allowed me to join without completing their course and embracing certain of their doctrines.] I was just about a member of the other for a number of years. [The third is represented here on the forum and my only experience with them is on the Internet and I while I am guessing about their policy what I have seen makes be believe it is so.]

Of the two I experienced more closely they both had other problems which offset the benefit of having that one better policy. I would be very slow to recommend any of them to an unbeliever. I won't say absolutely that I would not recommend them because sure as I do that God might then press me to do just what I said that I would not. LOL. It would not be the first time.

Hi John,
I have heard it said and, believe there is wisdom here too: "Churches are meant for believers, not the unbeliever" Our Church is big on small groups and taking what we hear out into the world. I personally think that an unbeliever coming to a Church, should be prompted by the Holy Spirit to do so, not so much someone who goes because they think just being there and hearing things they do not understand (that goes for many believers too) will somehow make them want to come back, just because you (generally, not YOU, lol) keep asking or pleading with them to come. I could be totally off my rocker here, but I believe Church is for the believer, not the unbeliever. And even so, we should NOT get every bit of teaching from the same people over and over again. And, again, I am glad that my Church has 7 pastors! They all teach differently and, we get some more than others but...they are biblical and do NOT shy away from the "hard verses". If we take good from God, we need to take bad as well.
I'm sorry Epi, I hope I did not (yet again) derail here.
Just to stay on topic...I do believe the mainstream Christian denoms. are becoming more and more like Islam...

 

[Episkopos]

1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

What this does not mean is that whoever SAYS He has the Son has life: Just because we have Jesus' name on our letterhead or our building does not mean we HAVE Him.

The above verse is a descriptive of the saints who walk in a life that is not their own...the resurrection life of Jesus. This walk is a calling...not by force, but by love and devotion. Love and devotion are never found in a totalitarian atmosphere.

So we are commanded to obey God is whatever capacity we find ourselves with. If in our own strength...then with all our abilities. But the gospel revelation is to get us into walking in a new life....a life without sin. But AT LEAST we should fear God and do righteously with the capacity we have been given.

 

[A_Man]

Now I think we all realize that Islam is a totalitarian system. I don't say just religion since Islam covers a lot more than just religious ideas. Islam also ventures into the political sphere...seeking to control every aspect of a person's life.

On a religious level...the world is seen by these as either being in submission to God (as in Islam) or else to be seen as an infidel. Fidelity is seen as being embodied only in exclusivity to it's own worldview. All else is to be converted or destroyed. This is totalitarianism in a nutshell.

Judaism on the other hand is a two tiered religion. There is the holy nation...and they who are the righteous among the nations. We know that Jews actually dissuade people from converting to Judaism...instead citing salvation by following the Noahide laws...based on a universal righteousness. And besides the Jews see their nation as the light to the other nations. Jews do NOT impose the weight of the 613 laws of Judaism on non-Jews. That is both the prerogative and responsibility that goes with being a Jew in the world.

So then Judaism is NOT totalitarian in it's out look.

So which world-view have we adopted in modern Christendom?

The totalitarian one.

Mabe this is 'moderate Islam' but what I learned in Shi'ite Islam class and/or Arabic class is that idol worshippers would be infidels...kafir. Christians and Jews are considered to be ahl kitab. People of the book. People of the book may exist in their society but they are taxed. They allow a Muslim man to marry a Christian or Jewish woman but not vice versa.

There are some anti Jewish parts of the AQ paro ably composed during wars with Jews.

 

[amadeus]

1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

What this does not mean is that whoever SAYS He has the Son has life: Just because we have Jesus' name on our letterhead or our building does not mean we HAVE Him.

The above verse is a descriptive of the saints who walk in a life that is not their own...the resurrection life of Jesus. This walk is a calling...not by force, but by love and devotion. Love and devotion are never found in a totalitarian atmosphere.

So we are commanded to obey God is whatever capacity we find ourselves with. If in our own strength...then with all our abilities. But the gospel revelation is to get us into walking in a new life....a life without sin. But AT LEAST we should fear God and do righteously with the capacity we have been given.

Aye... those who Say they have the Son will usually also Say that they are Christians... Since many of them really are deceivers who Say these things, even though being in delusion, many of them will not know it, it would from man's view seem very difficult for new searchers to find the Truth/Jesus without being led by God. So then...

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

 

[JohnPaul]

I believe Catholicism and those denominations that ascribe to Kingdom Now/Dominion Theology would be totalitarian, yes. And I believe denominations that hammer away at the importance of gaining political influence would to some extent as well. I'm not sure more spiritually-oriented congregations would, however, as I would think more spiritually-oriented congregations, denomination etc. would be less concerned with enforcing "Christianity" from without as trying to impart Christianity from within.

Is not Catholicism Christian, comparing it to Islam? WOW!

Liberals and gay hugging people love Islam, knowing these people would kill a homosexual on the spot back in their countries, and are oppressive to women, but mention God or Jesus Christ or Mary, and this cannot be tolerated, crazy world.

 

[JohnPaul]

Mabe this is 'moderate Islam' but what I learned in Shi'ite Islam class and/or Arabic class is that idol worshippers would be infidels...kafir. Christians and Jews are considered to be ahl kitab. People of the book. People of the book may exist in their society but they are taxed. They allow a Muslim man to marry a Christian or Jewish woman but not vice versa.

There are some anti Jewish parts of the AQ paro ably composed during wars with Jews.

Are not the mohamadens the biggest idol worshippers of all? don't they all have to go kiss the black stone in the kabal? Can't get more idol worship than that.

Plus they are moon worshippers, the whole mecca was filled with idols that mohamad's uncle took care of and presided over and no allah is not Arabic for God, at least not our God.

 

[Nondenom40]

Are not the mohamadens the biggest idol worshippers of all? don't they all have to go kiss the black stone in the kabal? Can't get more idol worship than that.

How about worshiping a wafer or a wafer in a monstrance or mary?? God is not in your eucharist, yet catholics worship it as god. Thats idolatry performed every day all over the world. Hows that compare to islam?

Plus they are moon worshippers, the whole mecca was filled with idols that mohamad's uncle took care of and presided over and no allah is not Arabic for God, at least not our God.

Define 'our God'. A consecrated wafer isn't god. Its a false idol.

 

[JohnPaul]

How about worshiping a wafer or a wafer in a monstrance or mary?? God is not in your eucharist, yet catholics worship it as god. Thats idolatry performed every day all over the world. Hows that compare to islam?

Define 'our God'. A consecrated wafer isn't god. Its a false idol.

God, Mary and Catholics are spelled with a capital G, M and C, you sure you're Christian? I don't hate any Christian denomination, not any, but it seems you and others on here do.

You must be a mohamedan lover.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Is not Catholicism Christian, comparing it to Islam? WOW!

I'm no anti-Catholic, but I do agree that Catholicism has striven towards totalitarianism in the past. It's what dominion theology strives to achieve.

But this is really more a discussion you should have with Episkopos. The argument being presented in the title is his. I was simply trying to see if he was differentiating between different branches of Christianity or lumping all Christian denominations and movements together under one umbrella.

My apologies if I offended you, and blessings in Christ.

 

[A_Man]

Are not the mohamadens the biggest idol worshippers of all? don't they all have to go kiss the black stone in the kabal? Can't get more idol worship than that.

Plus they are moon worshippers, the whole mecca was filled with idols that mohamad's uncle took care of and presided over and no allah is not Arabic for God, at least not our God.

I haven't read that Morey book, but I am suspicious of what I have heard of it's claims.

The official Hebrew Semitic argument I could ascertain as a linguistics student studying Hebrew and Arabic (as elective) and talking to prophecies who knew both, based on lectures and a conversation with a professor of Hebrew is that 'Allah is supposed to be the cognate of 'Al illah.

'Al means 'the' and 'illah' means 'god.' 'illah is cognate with 'eloah, the Berew plural of Elohim. But the contraction of 'Allah from 'Al illah does not follow regular grammatical rules like getting 'Abdullah from 'Abdul Allah (servant of God.)

Pre-Islamic Arabic speaking Christians did not leave us written Bible translations or liturgies that have been discovered (the last I read), but the evidence does seem to point toward 'Allah' being the pre-Muhammadan Christian name for God. There was an Abdullah bin such and such (can't remember his father's name, maybe transliterated with an initial Th sound) who was a slave who brought the gospel to Arabs. Many Arab Christians were assigned the name 'Abdullah at Baptism. If 'Allah was the name of a moon god, or a moon god only and not a designation for God, then would Christians have used that name? Apollos was not a popular Greek name for Christians though there was an early Christian with that name.

A friend of mine, a licensed tour guide in Israel, knew of a pre-Islamic inscription which referre to the Biblical God as 'Allah.

There are multitudes of Christians who call God 'Allah in the Arab world, in Malta, Indonesia, and various other places. Though Indonesian and Malaysian are almost the same language, Malaysian Bibles do not call God 'Allah, but this is because the government forbade it because of Muslims objecting to it.

 

[bbyrd009]

Now I think we all realize that Islam is a totalitarian system. I don't say just religion since Islam covers a lot more than just religious ideas. Islam also ventures into the political sphere...seeking to control every aspect of a person's life.

this is a Christian, saying this. lol.

 

[JohnPaul]

I haven't read that Morey book, but I am suspicious of what I have heard of it's claims.

The official Hebrew Semitic argument I could ascertain as a linguistics student studying Hebrew and Arabic (as elective) and talking to prophecies who knew both, based on lectures and a conversation with a professor of Hebrew is that 'Allah is supposed to be the cognate of 'Al illah.

'Al means 'the' and 'illah' means 'god.' 'illah is cognate with 'eloah, the Berew plural of Elohim. But the contraction of 'Allah from 'Al illah does not follow regular grammatical rules like getting 'Abdullah from 'Abdul Allah (servant of God.)

Pre-Islamic Arabic speaking Christians did not leave us written Bible translations or liturgies that have been discovered (the last I read), but the evidence does seem to point toward 'Allah' being the pre-Muhammadan Christian name for God. There was an Abdullah bin such and such (can't remember his father's name, maybe transliterated with an initial Th sound) who was a slave who brought the gospel to Arabs. Many Arab Christians were assigned the name 'Abdullah at Baptism. If 'Allah was the name of a moon god, or a moon god only and not a designation for God, then would Christians have used that name? Apollos was not a popular Greek name for Christians though there was an early Christian with that name.

A friend of mine, a licensed tour guide in Israel, knew of a pre-Islamic inscription which referre to the Biblical God as 'Allah.

There are multitudes of Christians who call God 'Allah in the Arab world, in Malta, Indonesia, and various other places. Though Indonesian and Malaysian are almost the same language, Malaysian Bibles do not call God 'Allah, but this is because the government forbade it because of Muslims objecting to it.

I read a long time ago about the word Allah and a background on Mohamed's family and the people back then and that is what I understood, I may be wrong, I'd have to go back and see if I could find the article, which would be hard, it was a long time ago.

 

[JohnPaul]

I'm no anti-Catholic, but I do agree that Catholicism has striven towards totalitarianism in the past. It's what dominion theology strives to achieve.

But this is really more a discussion you should have with Episkopos. The argument being presented in the title is his. I was simply trying to see if he was differentiating between different branches of Christianity or lumping all Christian denominations and movements together under one umbrella.

My apologies if I offended you, and blessings in Christ.

God bless you as well.

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm no anti-Catholic, but I do agree that Catholicism has striven towards totalitarianism in the past. It's what dominion theology strives to achieve.

seems to me that Methodism or most any other function under the same MO, whether they admit it or not? Havent we all chosen the "correct" religion?

 

[bbyrd009]

Islam also ventures into the political sphere...seeking to control every aspect of a person's life.

my point there was that it is nominal "Christians" who currently seek to control every aspect of our lives? And those of the whole planet? Fwiw i would say that there is a completely diff Islam, too, other than the one we are presented with on tv, epi. Funny to me that we are in love with Jews, but we are much closer to Muslims actually, who are also very generous, in a way that Jews just are not, at least in my experience

how would you like to go there this spring, and see? $1200 bucks is not much these days, huh?
Or you might even just go and intentionally interact with a Muslim, Yah would surely send you one if you took a single step in that direction, and then you might understand how you sound to those who know. Up to you bro

"Islam also ventures into the political sphere..." is nothing short of hilarious, coming from a Christian

 

[Hidden In Him]

seems to me that Methodism or most any other function under the same MO, whether they admit it or not? Havent we all chosen the "correct" religion?

What you get into here is a matter of intent. Kingdom Now theology subscribes to the idea that God has commanded the church to establish His kingdom upon the earth now, not just thru spiritual but political means, and that once the church has achieved political dominance over the earth the Lord will return to assume leadership over it.

But not all denominations take this view. In fact, most do NOT believe the church will first gain power over the earth before the Lord returns. They believe just the opposite; that the earth will fall increasingly under the control of the evil one until things become so wicked upon the earth that if the Lord does not intervene "no flesh shall be saved."

Anyway, it's an entirely different eschatology which not everyone subscribes to. Most in fact do not.

 

[bbyrd009]

What you get into here is a matter of intent. Kingdom Now theology subscribes to the idea that God has commanded the church to establish His kingdom upon the earth now, not just thru spiritual but political means, and that once the church has achieved political dominance over the earth the Lord will return to assume leadership over it.

But not all denominations take this view. In fact, most do NOT believe the church will first gain power over the earth before the Lord returns. They believe just the opposite; that the earth will fall increasingly under the control of the evil one until things become so wicked upon the earth that if the Lord does not intervene "no flesh shall be saved."

Anyway, it's an entirely different eschatology which not everyone subscribes to. Most in fact do not.

tbh i find either extreme rather disturbing, and willfully ignorant of reality?
fwiw Muslims are awesome ppl, even if they certainly do have their Strangers too i guess, nothing wrong with that tho imo

the Euphrates is literally dried up now, and the kings are coming, ok ladies? They are already arriving, i see them almost every day, met one yesterday matter of fact. BOLO ok?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

my point there was that it is nominal "Christians" who currently seek to control every aspect of our lives? And those of the whole planet? Fwiw i would say that there is a completely diff Islam, too, other than the one we are presented with on tv, epi. Funny to me that we are in love with Jews, but we are much closer to Muslims actually, who are also very generous, in a way that Jews just are not, at least in my experience

how would you like to go there this spring, and see? $1200 bucks is not much these days, huh?
Or you might even just go and intentionally interact with a Muslim, Yah would surely send you one if you took a single step in that direction, and then you might understand how you sound to those who know. Up to you bro

"Islam also ventures into the political sphere..." is nothing short of hilarious, coming from a Christian

I'm not going to give you a pass on this, bbyrd. You are too intelligent for me to give you a pass. You need to read the man's posts again.

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm not going to give you a pass on this, bbyrd. You are too intelligent for me to give you a pass. You need to read the man's posts again.

ok, ty, i will do so and repop asap

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm not going to give you a pass on this, bbyrd. You are too intelligent for me to give you a pass. You need to read the man's posts again.

ok so he is spot on, and also not, imo, as it is certainly the Ashke nazi pulling our strings, both ours and Islams, not that this will not end up serving Yah.

But good point, ty